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Valei Khurelem
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:33:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Valei Khurelem on 14/07/2011 09:34:59
Edited by: Valei Khurelem on 14/07/2011 09:34:10
Edited by: Valei Khurelem on 14/07/2011 09:33:59
Edited by: Valei Khurelem on 14/07/2011 09:33:43
Originally by: Suitonia
People who claim it would benefit solo PvP are those people who have never taken part in such activities. Removing local makes it harder to find like-minded players who want to PvP, it makes it harder for people to mobilize and try and deal with you, and it also forces you to spend much more time scanning each system just to find a fight.

It'll benefit people who like to fly recons, or afk in pve systems and kill ratters, and that's it. For everyone else who likes to actively engage and find fast-paced PvP with other players it'll make it considerably harder and more difficult. I've already given up roaming the south and the east since there is just multiple empty systems with no-one in local, removing it will just further the problem of un-used and empty feeling space.

Honestly, if people like to sneak up on people, there are wormholes for that. And hell, CCP could easily introduce some new no local 0.0 regions if they want. As mentioned, the QEN shows a drastically reduced amount of pvp per player happening in wormholes. Please don't make EvE PVP even more slower and hard to find than it already is. (Roaming for hours without finding a single fight is something that happens way more than you might think).




I wish there were more responses like this on the EVE forums rather than the DERP NOOB MUST TROLL reponses we normally get, even though I don't agree with you I think if local was actually removed it would encourage more PvP, corporations and the like would actively go out hunting into the unknown instead of huddling in their 0.0 systems and gatecamping newbies.

That said I think the only way to implement a change to 0.0 space is unfortunately going to not be to the benefit of both types of player, I for one though don't hold much sympathy given my most recent venture into 0.0 was filled with people who would check up local and immediately see that someone new had jumped in and start gate camping so I had no escape route.

AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs you can go and **** yourself you utter ****.

Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:37:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Suitonia
People who claim it would benefit solo PvP are those people who have never taken part in such activities. Removing local makes it harder to find like-minded players who want to PvP

How about a WH local in 0.0. If you want to find like minded people, announce your presence. If you are hunting PVE players, keep quiet.
Originally by: Suitonia
it makes it harder for people to mobilize and try and deal with you

No it doesn't. Nobody uses local for mobilizing troops. It will make it a little harder to track you, but that's a good thing.
Originally by: Suitonia
and it also forces you to spend much more time scanning each system just to find a fight.

Again, if you are looking for a fight, you are looking for fighters. If they implement WH local in 0.0 then everyone looking for a fight will say so in local. It will make it a little harder, yes, if you just happen to barely miss each other because you weren't talking enough, but it's worth it.

Originally by: Suitonia
It'll benefit people who like to fly recons, or afk in pve systems and kill ratters, and that's it.

If it's any consolation there will be no more need for afk pilots any more. The only reason pilots AFK in a system is to scare people from ratting, or prevent bots from functioning. The lack of local will make it very hard for botters to work when all it takes to pop one is a cloaky tackler and a fleet of DPS right outside of D-scan range.

It will benefit the wary ratter who doesn't have to worry about the errant pvp player passing through. If you are paying enough attention you will see him the same time he sees you. The benefit is he doesn't know where you are yet and all you have to do is warp off.

It will help small gang hunters who know how to warp in cloakys and tackle before bringing in the big guns. Basically it will only harm dumb pvp players who don't know how to use tactics or are afraid of change.
Originally by: Suitonia
For everyone else who likes to actively engage and find fast-paced PvP with other players it'll make it considerably harder and more difficult. I've already given up roaming the south and the east since there is just multiple empty systems with no-one in local, removing it will just further the problem of un-used and empty feeling space.

See above. It isn't considerably harder to put an x in local every time you enter the system. If this is your only gripe that you have to do one extra step, even though it makes gameplay so much better for everyone else then **** you.

Originally by: Suitonia
Honestly, if people like to sneak up on people, there are wormholes for that. And hell, CCP could easily introduce some new no local 0.0 regions if they want. As mentioned, the QEN shows a drastically reduced amount of pvp per player happening in wormholes. Please don't make EvE PVP even more slower and hard to find than it already is. (Roaming for hours without finding a single fight is something that happens way more than you might think).

We have been over the wormhole sparsity. You can't just jump from system to system in WH, you have to make an effort to move around, so it keeps out lazy people like you.

This last part really sums up your point of view. "Go ahead and add new regions with no local for everyone else, as long as you don't change MY space and make ME adapt."

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:43:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Originally by: Suitonia
People who claim it would benefit solo PvP are those people who have never taken part in such activities. Removing local makes it harder to find like-minded players who want to PvP

How about a WH local in 0.0. If you want to find like minded people, announce your presence. If you are hunting PVE players, keep quiet.
Originally by: Suitonia
it makes it harder for people to mobilize and try and deal with you

No it doesn't. Nobody uses local for mobilizing troops. It will make it a little harder to track you, but that's a good thing.
Originally by: Suitonia
and it also forces you to spend much more time scanning each system just to find a fight.

Again, if you are looking for a fight, you are looking for fighters. If they implement WH local in 0.0 then everyone looking for a fight will say so in local. It will make it a little harder, yes, if you just happen to barely miss each other because you weren't talking enough, but it's worth it.

Originally by: Suitonia
It'll benefit people who like to fly recons, or afk in pve systems and kill ratters, and that's it.

If it's any consolation there will be no more need for afk pilots any more. The only reason pilots AFK in a system is to scare people from ratting, or prevent bots from functioning. The lack of local will make it very hard for botters to work when all it takes to pop one is a cloaky tackler and a fleet of DPS right outside of D-scan range.

It will benefit the wary ratter who doesn't have to worry about the errant pvp player passing through. If you are paying enough attention you will see him the same time he sees you. The benefit is he doesn't know where you are yet and all you have to do is warp off.

It will help small gang hunters who know how to warp in cloakys and tackle before bringing in the big guns. Basically it will only harm dumb pvp players who don't know how to use tactics or are afraid of change.
Originally by: Suitonia
For everyone else who likes to actively engage and find fast-paced PvP with other players it'll make it considerably harder and more difficult. I've already given up roaming the south and the east since there is just multiple empty systems with no-one in local, removing it will just further the problem of un-used and empty feeling space.

See above. It isn't considerably harder to put an x in local every time you enter the system. If this is your only gripe that you have to do one extra step, even though it makes gameplay so much better for everyone else then **** you.

Originally by: Suitonia
Honestly, if people like to sneak up on people, there are wormholes for that. And hell, CCP could easily introduce some new no local 0.0 regions if they want. As mentioned, the QEN shows a drastically reduced amount of pvp per player happening in wormholes. Please don't make EvE PVP even more slower and hard to find than it already is. (Roaming for hours without finding a single fight is something that happens way more than you might think).

We have been over the wormhole sparsity. You can't just jump from system to system in WH, you have to make an effort to move around, so it keeps out lazy people like you.

This last part really sums up your point of view. "Go ahead and add new regions with no local for everyone else, as long as you don't change MY space and make ME adapt."


Suit, don't do it. You don't need to. Nobody will read this and think anything other than "lol".

Professional Retard
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:49:00 - [94]
 

There should be a sov upgrade to show local, not every 0.0 should have it. This would also make it harder for bots to spread among all the empty systems in 0.0

Nieero
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:49:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs
[...]
Players will be faced with a choice, stay docked because your too damn afraid of the unknown and accomplish nothing, or let their balls drop and hit the undock button and embrace the unknown. God forbid that ratters fit for PvP in case it happens too. Maybe not solo NPC's? Have scouts watch gates? Basically a total change in how they view ratting, PvP, exploring, etc. All of the sudden, the game seems bigger.
[...]
Too much intel is killing PvP.


You're so damn right. Please spread your word all over New Eden.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:51:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: P42ALPHA


I would say dont roam in the north, or dont roam near the russian. But sadly with the extent of Macro mining, and plex. Every Alliance and there brother has a few supers they hot drop on everyone they can.

LOL the last time I got my ship ploded. Was against some Testies, and in a SB'er some cane popped me before there Super could lock me. Against a 40 man+ fleet. That Super pilot must have been raging that cane for stealing his kill. LAWL


Its not just the north its everywhere. I went on a roam across the whole galaxy in my vexor and came across a single drake that was running a poor macro that I couldnt kill. The only good success I get is from a bomber sitting on a gate for so long that people forget that I am there and jump into meNeutral

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:01:00 - [97]
 

In my experience the majority of players would rather overblob and have no fight, than put up an approriate response and have the fight, even though they might "lose".

An appropriate response might include fielding 400m worth of ships, which they might lose quite a few of them, and they don't hold the field.
An innapropriate response to the same situation might include 40bn in ships, which they might lose 2.2bn isk worth, but they hold the field and declare themselves the victors.

The innapropriate response also often leads to the attacking force testing the field for weaknesses before deciding that they cannot engage with a reasonable chance of success.

Removing local isn't going to stop being people being weirdly addicted to "winning" all the time, especially where there is actually nothing at stake.

AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:07:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Valei Khurelem
AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs you can go and **** yourself you utter ****.


Everything I said was the truth. That is the reality of how local works. The very second a person enters the system it is a race. Race to see if they can catch the other person or if that person gets safe first, because they saw you enter system before you loaded grid and are already half way into warp.

If that is how you view PvP should be, well, I guess I'm at a loss of words to describe how pathetic that is.

WisdomLikeSilence
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:20:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Kirkland Langue
Edited by: Kirkland Langue on 14/07/2011 02:08:08
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.


I don't believe you. If you were really a small scale pvper, you would recognize that the removal of local would give you pvp every 10 minutes. Just run a recon through 0.0 belts looking for ratters. If they don't know you are in local, and can't see you on scan, you think they are just going to sit cloaked in a safe spot on the fear that there "might" be a recon in local? no - they will rat and spam scanner up till the point you scram them and your buddies jump into local.


EDIT - The main reason, far from the only one, this doesn't work in WH space right now is because the rats in the sites would murder the recon the instant it uncloaked. Belt rats in 0.0 aren't nearly as nasty.


Uh, no they are simply not going to rat AT ALL. Supply and demand fella. If you get blown up everytime you rat, if you suspect theres ALWAYS someone waiting, then why rat?

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:20:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Medidranda Livoga on 14/07/2011 11:57:20
Edited by: Medidranda Livoga on 14/07/2011 10:22:47
Roaming has been obsolete for years because of local. Only real way to pvp is to portal on top of targets. Every time I think of hours of roaming and wasted time I feel like shoving fingers down my throat and throwing up.

Local is bullcrap, it allows for passive intel gathering and botting. It also stops almost all surprise pvp encounters, which are best ones in this game. It forces you to go with recon pvp route since only those have vague chance of conditioning locals to your presense and allow eventual surprise attack.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:30:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose

Suit, don't do it. You don't need to. Nobody will read this and think anything other than "lol".


I'm not going to respond to any of the posts since they're all trolls with no PvP records, with personal attacks and straw-man arguments. I tried to do my bit to be constructive in the cesspool that is eve general discussion. But it seems that it is not ready for reason yet and people are still screeching "ADAPT OR DIE" at the top of their lungs while posting in another thread about how they're quitting the game if X doesn't happen.

Such is life.

Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:35:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Kirkland Langue
Edited by: Kirkland Langue on 14/07/2011 02:08:08
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.


I don't believe you. If you were really a small scale pvper, you would recognize that the removal of local would give you pvp every 10 minutes. Just run a recon through 0.0 belts looking for ratters. If they don't know you are in local, and can't see you on scan, you think they are just going to sit cloaked in a safe spot on the fear that there "might" be a recon in local? no - they will rat and spam scanner up till the point you scram them and your buddies jump into local.


EDIT - The main reason, far from the only one, this doesn't work in WH space right now is because the rats in the sites would murder the recon the instant it uncloaked. Belt rats in 0.0 aren't nearly as nasty.


rofl at the wannabe pvper....you are nothing but a cearbear if you think ganking some lone ratter in a belt is A) fun B) PvP C) somethign to brag about.
The ratter in the belt has more guts YOU will ever have.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:49:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Thanks to the current insta intel local most people run away from the small gangs I take part in. The only ones who dont run are the ones which greater numbers or supers they can hotdrop.

There is no such thing as a suprise attack at the moment.

well. if you don't want to fight people who can fight back i'm sorry for you. Maybe you should grow some balls then?

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:02:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 14/07/2011 11:09:15

No local would of course help people kill ratters, but out side that I agree it would make solo PVP even harder than it is today. Right now if I'm out solo roaming, I can jump in a system and know right away if there is 1 person that might be a potential target or 50 I need to watch for.

With out local it will make solo PVP in anything but frigs a hit or miss as to if you die in fire to a blob. Yes, PVP is already like this but it will be even worse with out local.

Not to mention, it will require even more wasted time looking through empty systems, to figure out if the Drake you see on Dscan is floating in a POS with out a pilot in a empty system, or does it have an actual pilot flying it.

The reason I stopped trying to PVP in WH's, was because it was far too time consuming. No local would make roams in low/null take much longer and would give even more incentive for people to be lazy, slobs that do nothing but sit on gates 23.5/7

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:39:00 - [105]
 

removing local doesn't help to kill ratters.

Thomas Phillippe
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:43:00 - [106]
 

this is a boost to cloaks. i think ths will be less pvp because everyone will be cloaked up or in huge blobs

Misunderstood Genius
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:44:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 14/07/2011 11:45:27
No worries and a message to all who had posted and want to post another "remove local" thread: it will never happen.

Blobbing is no local issue it's just the simple fact that in a MMORPG people like to work together to win what is called blob by solo whiners or poor ppl who don't know enough PvPer in EVE to counter.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:45:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Ok I know lots of people like the idea of no local. Many people like to gank pve ships and think that no local will help. But there are other forms of pvp in eve - if just barely.

Local is a very very important tool for anyone who roams solo or with a small gang.



Wormholes.

No local.

It's all "anyone who roams solo or with a small gang", and it's a hell of a lot more exciting than anything you have in null or low sec. Grow a pair. Try real PvP.

Hell, I'm a "carebear" in a wormhole and I'm not cowed by a lack of local, just a lot more alert.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:49:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Miss Rabblt
well. if you don't want to fight people who can fight back i'm sorry for you. Maybe you should grow some balls then?


Cute.

But I have spent most of the last 5 years in venal fighting in small gangs vs the blob of the north and if you belive in the blaster buff whiners then I have nuts the size of moons to be taking a blaster mega on fast roams.

Go out and get some experience little pleb before mouthing off at your betters.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:50:00 - [110]
 

Didn't read entire thread. To the op: wormhole space disagrees with you.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:53:00 - [111]
 

I remember one of the patches in 2006 or early 2007 which broke local (put it into Delayed IIRC) for a day or two. It was probably one of the most thrilling moments I've ever experienced in EVE. It's hard to articulate the precise sensation, but I distinctly remember the sudden feeling that the game was so much bigger. Or rather, that I felt so much smaller. A familair, friendly, well travelled system suddenly felt vast and unfamiliar to me. Venturing forth to kill some rats was transformed from the most mundane chore to a dangerous adventure. I found myself making genuine choices - do I stick around and kill the whole spawn, or quickly reap a battleship and move on? Do I loot the wrecks?

I can understand the apprenhensions that many have, but I think you're really selling yourselves short. IMO instant local does more to make EVE feel smaller and more banal than almost anything else.

People are considering the effect purely on themselves, without really thinking about what would happen in the wider game: "It'll be harder for me to make ISK!" Well yeah probably, but it'll be harder for everyone else too. "It'll be easier for people to gank me" well yeah probably, but it'll be easier for you to trap them as well.

Think about how different EVE would be if the majority of basic wealth generation activities weren't predictable, safe and easy. What changes might we see? Would the game be more fun?

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:53:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn
removing local doesn't help to kill ratters.
I think for the first couple of weeks ratters will be wiped out clean if they get no sort of warning help. Once ratters/miners learn their lesson or run out of isk then all there will be left are cloaked/blobbed gangs vs cloaked/blobbed gangs. And then the ganker tears will ensue Razz.


Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:55:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: jackaloped


Also I don't want to have to gimp my ship with a scan probe launcher just to spend time to find out a system is empty. Again make finding decent small scale pvp easier not harder.


Expanded launcher. You want combat probes.

Better yet... bring a scanning friend with you while you do your ratting or whatever the hell non-wormholers do out there.

AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:04:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I remember one of the patches in 2006 or early 2007 which broke local (put it into Delayed IIRC) for a day or two. It was probably one of the most thrilling moments I've ever experienced in EVE. It's hard to articulate the precise sensation, but I distinctly remember the sudden feeling that the game was so much bigger. Or rather, that I felt so much smaller. A familair, friendly, well travelled system suddenly felt vast and unfamiliar to me. Venturing forth to kill some rats was transformed from the most mundane chore to a dangerous adventure. I found myself making genuine choices - do I stick around and kill the whole spawn, or quickly reap a battleship and move on? Do I loot the wrecks?

I can understand the apprenhensions that many have, but I think you're really selling yourselves short. IMO instant local does more to make EVE feel smaller and more banal than almost anything else.

People are considering the effect purely on themselves, without really thinking about what would happen in the wider game: "It'll be harder for me to make ISK!" Well yeah probably, but it'll be harder for everyone else too. "It'll be easier for people to gank me" well yeah probably, but it'll be easier for you to trap them as well.

Think about how different EVE would be if the majority of basic wealth generation activities weren't predictable, safe and easy. What changes might we see? Would the game be more fun?


I remember that day. Local channel displayed the number of people in system, but it did not say who. That feeling was great. Local would go up a couple and your wondering, "Is it friendly or hostile?" Next thing you know, your investigating to find out. Setting up a small task force to patrol. Manually gather intel. It just felt like it was the way it should be. You put forth the effort and it was fun. Your cordinating with those running sites, in the belts. Paroling with protection. Delegating assignments out and next thing you know, everyone is talking to each other, passing information on who was where.

You remember that bug where you could double click on some channel and the local channel would disappear, also removing you from everyone's local too?

Shepard Book
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:06:00 - [115]
 

A scout and or probing ship will become more important to roams. It will make the role more important. Competent Pvpers will adapt if they have not already learned this valuable role to begin with...
You saying killing local is a pro blobbing move but have nothing to support it. Scanners pick up fleets now before the changes are even in. If anything this should help smaller fleets get around a little easier before becoming blobbed IMO.
There is only a fraction of the people living in WH space to begin with so your comparison to 0.0 or low Sec is not a good one to me.
They also said they were going to improve the scanner. You are assuming you know everything about the change coming and you do not.

Psymn
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:13:00 - [116]
 

What i find funny about those that want local completely removed so they can theoretically get more pvp, is that it would only make it easier to pvp those that dont to.

I find that pvp'ing people that do want to pvp isnt all that hard at all, local or not.

Tosser Galore
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:33:00 - [117]
 

Remove Blobcal. This will introduce another dimension in the game. If you Think that blobs will gain from it you are very misinformed. They will replace it with some kind of intel tool that probably will "alert" you that something/someone is in the vicinity ,within the range of your sensors. This would be better than the current overpowered super chatbox from hell that delivers lazy ****ing intel. The guy hasn't even uncloaked yet and I am doing research on various sites and looking at stats (lol) but more importantly fittings.


This is bad for EvE.




Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:33:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 14/07/2011 12:42:37
Originally by: jackaloped


Why are carebears so happy to go there if no local encourages pvp? Answer: No local doesn't encourage pvp. It just makes people hit the dscan button like a lunatic.


Your conclusions about no local and w-space are wrong. No local has nothing to do with lack of pvp in w-space.

Larges numbers of people have a hard time moving through w-space. Blobs in w-space are impractical because of the mechanics. WH's collapse, you have to find the new ones. Your points of entry change. Could be a few systems away. Could be the other side of the galaxy. And that's assuming you have a k-space entry. For many systems you're going to get about 12 BS's worth of mass through and then you're point of entry will collapse.

If the w-space system you're trying to get to doesn't have a k-space static, good luck getting your fleet there because now, you have no direct line of entry. There's no guarantee that the next wh is going to open to a system that provides you one either. Or the next. Or the next. Or the next.

No local has little do with PVP out here. I suspect, it's going to have little to do with PVP in k-space as well. It's going to make gathering intel more time consuming and less perfect. But, there are other ways than local to gain intel on a system. Map statistics for one.

I also think that no local and the uncertainty it brings is going to make blob warfare less appealing. You're not easily going to risk billions of isk in ships quickly moving from system to system because your scouts can determine at a glance whether or not it's "safe". Blobs will always be there in k-space but their uses are going to be limited by no local. Smaller gangs are going to be more easy to move around and more flexible to get out of the way when they detect something bigger moving towards them.

Given the amount of time it's going to take to recon each system a blob wants to move through, noone is going to use the blob tactic unless there is a pre-determined need to do so. So, welcome back your small gang warfare.

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:37:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Ok it appears ccp must remove local to fully implement incarna.


Um... I wasn't really following news lately, but if this is really true then this game truly is going to hell from it's traditional gameplay perspective.

No local is a terrible idea. Really terrible. And if it's being done to accommodate space sims... I'm kinda speechless.

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:38:00 - [120]
 

I, for one, look forward to committing suicide at the gates of Amamake.


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