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Dredastttarm
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:30:00 - [1]
 

So I have been wondering what I should use on my ships, T2 or Faction weapons? I know that T2 weapons are the only weapons that can use T2 ammo and hence higher firepower and/or range. I have not really looked at the stats for Faction weapons and am wondering, maybe Faction beam lasers have longer ranges than T2 beams?


Help me plz!

Caldarian Commander
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:40:00 - [2]
 

Small Pulse Laser -> T2
Small Beam Laser -> T2

Medium Pulse Laser -> T2
Medium Beam Laser -> T2

Large Pulse Laser -> T2
Large Beam Laser -> Faction or T2

Small Autocannon -> T2
Small Artillery -> T2

Medium Autocannon -> T2
Medium Artillery -> T2

Large Autocannon -> T2
Large Artillery -> Faction or T2

Small Railgun -> T2
Small Blaster -> T2

Medium Railgun -> T2
Medium Blaster -> T2

Large Railgun -> Faction or T2
Large Blaster -> T2

Rocket -> T2
Standard Missile Launcher -> T2
Assault Launcher -> T2

Heavy Missile Launcher -> Faction or T2
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher -> T2

Cruise Launcher -> Faction or T2
Torpedo Launcher -> T2

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.07.13 02:07:00 - [3]
 

I hear Factions Tachs work awesomely with the Nightmare or Pally, as they use less cap than T2's. So very handy for them.

otherwise, i think T2 is fine

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.07.13 02:52:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Headerman
I hear Factions Tachs work awesomely with the Nightmare or Pally, as they use less cap than T2's. So very handy for them.

otherwise, i think T2 is fine


Faction rails make PvE gank Domis considerably easier to fit as well. I think those are the only times I would actually choose faction over T2, but faction large ACs on falloff-bonused boats aren't an actively poor choice.

And while technically faction HMLs can push out more damage with faction missiles, T2 with Fury still win the damage race. Unless you know you're going to be firing faction missiles (hard-to-probe Tengus maybe?) T2 is the better choice.

Akuma Tsukai
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:56:00 - [5]
 

Gonna use T2 ammo - T2
Not gonna use T2 ammo - faction.
In many cases factions are superior in stats and always easier to fit. Downsides are ammo (no T2) and omfg cost for some of them.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.07.13 04:08:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Akuma Tsukai
Gonna use T2 ammo - T2
Not gonna use T2 ammo - faction.
In many cases factions are superior in stats and always easier to fit. Downsides are ammo (no T2) and omfg cost for some of them.


That's not quite right. (Good) faction launchers have superior RoF to T2 launchers with spec 5. (Good) faction guns are surpassed in damage at spec 4 -- but are sometimes worth it for other reasons (mostly notably cap use on tachs).

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.07.13 08:21:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 13/07/2011 08:27:04
I like to use faction HM launchers with faction missiles on my mission Tengu since I can kill everything without ever reloading between fury/precision. I might save a couple of volleys on some BS targets with t2/furies but the extra reloading time and slower launch rate would eat up all the profits.

Sure, I could use faction missiles with t2 launchers, but faction produces better RoF (and dps) with them.

I might consider using furies/faction (no precision, they are horrid) if I ever get my HM specialization to lvl5 though...

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.07.13 10:19:00 - [8]
 

as far as i found T2 weapon looks like "cheaper than faction variant".

As compare to T1 (with equal skills):
- T2 weapon takes bonuses from "advanced" skill (usually up to 10%)
- faction weapon - usually have 5-10% bonus to T1.
So with equal ammo you don't get "crazy T2 DPS" from T2 weapon. And i really don't see any reasons to use T2 ammo in any cases i have.

Problem of T2 weapons is higher CPU,Power and/or capacitor requirements. That's why i couldn't replace my CalNav HM launchers by T2 ones on my tengu "tank for 10/10". And T1 Meta 4 Tachyons to T2 ones in my Abaddon. Yes. Maybe with better skills (Weapon Upgrades to 5 + Adv Weapon Upgrades to 5) i will be able to change my fits but according to pyfa this doesnt' worth time.

Here i would be glad to have some advices about changing T1 to T2 ammo. Cases:
- Projectile 800mm autocannons:
1)EM/Term damage: better damage output for 20-50km
2)Exp damage: bigger damage output than from Fleet Fusion L, distance - 0-15..20km.
- Tachyons: bigger damage output for Em/Term and Explosive types with ranges 30-50km.

Abye
Caldari
Blinking Wallet makes me happy
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:07:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Zhilia Mann
(Good) faction launchers have superior RoF to T2 launchers with spec 5. (Good) faction guns are surpassed in damage at spec 4


This needs to be drilled into peoples heads, lots of hearsay around

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:43:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 14/07/2011 19:47:53
Originally by: Abye
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
(Good) faction launchers have superior RoF to T2 launchers with spec 5. (Good) faction guns are surpassed in damage at spec 4


This needs to be drilled into peoples heads, lots of hearsay around


"Specialist training in the operation of advanced heavy missile launchers. 2% bonus per level to the rate of fire of modules requiring Heavy Missile Specialization."

Sure, 40M the faction launcher is worthy for 0.35 sec won per volley with less dps than T2 ammo...specially to kill rats Laughing

EDIT: please moar faction fit tengu's for pvp YARRRR!!

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:38:00 - [11]
 

IIRC, faction launchers also hold more missiles, so you get a bit of a DPS boost from not having to reload as often.


Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.07.14 22:29:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 15/07/2011 00:03:02
Originally by: stoicfaux
IIRC, faction launchers also hold more missiles, so you get a bit of a DPS boost from not having to reload as often.


45 vs. 40 for HMLs. So 12.5% more per load. The exact change in DPS is, of course, dependent on how fast you empty the launcher -- so theoretically on one of the massive RoF Tengu EFT builds with the ZMM1100 it can be somewhat significant (HMLII under ideal circumstances would empty in 2 min 15 sec for loading time of 6.89% of a load cycle; CNHML would empty in 2 min 28 sec or 6.32% of a load cycle -- so an extra five volleys and an extra 13 seconds before reload).

I have trouble thinking that is worth 330mil ISK -- especially since you can't fire Fury. But what do I know.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.07.14 23:19:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 14/07/2011 23:40:06
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
I have trouble thinking that is worth 330mil ISK -- especially since you can't fire Fury. But what do I know.


It's really more for the powergrid savings. If it were just a matter of RoF and expense, I'd be using T2. Trying to fit a 100mn afterburner changes the equation quite a bit, though.

Edit: I thought this was the PvP Tengu thread. So yeah, that should give you an idea of exactly how limited the scope is for faction weapons. T2 are almost always the more cost effective option.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.07.15 10:52:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 15/07/2011 10:56:46
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 15/07/2011 00:03:02
Originally by: stoicfaux
IIRC, faction launchers also hold more missiles, so you get a bit of a DPS boost from not having to reload as often.


45 vs. 40 for HMLs. So 12.5% more per load. The exact change in DPS is, of course, dependent on how fast you empty the launcher -- so theoretically on one of the massive RoF Tengu EFT builds with the ZMM1100 it can be somewhat significant (HMLII under ideal circumstances would empty in 2 min 15 sec for loading time of 6.89% of a load cycle; CNHML would empty in 2 min 28 sec or 6.32% of a load cycle -- so an extra five volleys and an extra 13 seconds before reload).

I have trouble thinking that is worth 330mil ISK -- especially since you can't fire Fury. But what do I know.


you forgot the rigs. with t2/fury you are more likely to use 2 t2 rigors which means you don't use BLAII which also gives RoF boost with 4 BCU. All these small things add up to considerably better RoF. Since you launch faster, you kill small targets that require 1 or 2 volleys faster since you'd need the same 1-2 volleys with t2 anyway.

also you can't shoot small things with fury but you can shoot anything with t1 faction ammo so you do not have to reload for other kind of ammo - which also saves time.

oh and did you know fury increases your signature? you have to take power 6 of the penalty listed since you load into all of 6 launchers, these penalties are cumulative. this means you are easier to hit, easier to scan.

of course i am only talking about pve here since no sane person would use 60mil launchers for pvp, this is obvious stuff.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:11:00 - [15]
 

Very expensive guns gets you easier ganked as well. Everybody wins.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.07.15 19:43:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
you forgot the rigs. with t2/fury you are more likely to use 2 t2 rigors which means you don't use BLAII which also gives RoF boost with 4 BCU. All these small things add up to considerably better RoF. Since you launch faster, you kill small targets that require 1 or 2 volleys faster since you'd need the same 1-2 volleys with t2 anyway.


Meh. The effect is strikingly minimal. Go ahead and take a look yourself.

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
also you can't shoot small things with fury but you can shoot anything with t1 faction ammo so you do not have to reload for other kind of ammo - which also saves time.


Theoretically yes. 10 seconds per load, which can definitely add up when you're switching more than once per room. But in almost all cases you shouldn't be.

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
oh and did you know fury increases your signature? you have to take power 6 of the penalty listed since you load into all of 6 launchers, these penalties are cumulative. this means you are easier to hit, easier to scan.


Pretty sure I acknowledged that earlier in the thread, yes. But it's also not a straight exponential gain as the penalty is stacking penalized.

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
of course i am only talking about pve here since no sane person would use 60mil launchers for pvp, this is obvious stuff.


It should also be noted that CN missiles are considerably more expensive than Fury. Whether this matters is personal taste. I tend to prefer Fury and T1 (and never carry Precision).

Admiral Tom
Posted - 2011.07.16 10:45:00 - [17]
 

t2 = cheap and good . You won`t have fitting issues in 90% of cases

Dredastttarm
Posted - 2011.07.18 05:35:00 - [18]
 

Thank you all for your input (I was mainly looking for info about lasers cause Im amarr but it was still very helpful) I have always wondering if I was fitting my ships wrong because of the t2 guns...

Thanks for all your help Smile

Crabs Collector
Posted - 2011.07.18 09:03:00 - [19]
 

since youre only interested in lasers:

PULSE: t2 pulse is by far the best, since they can be fitted with Scorch crystals wich give good dps at long ranges (only EM damage though). Conflag crystals are less intersting since they get a tracking penalty wich usually removes the dps advantage over faction MF crystals.

BEAMS: t2 beams ofcourse do more damage than t1, but theyre also harder to fit. t2 crystals are pretty much only interesting for sniping in pvp, and then tachyons are mostly a better option. Faction beams do abit less dps than t2, but are easier to fit, capacitor and cpu-wise.

TACHYONS: Mother of all beams, for pve it only makes sense fitting them on the paladin and nightmare. T2 tachyons have the same difference with faction, as the beams, wich is why people often fit faction tachyons on their paladins.

Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.07.18 23:02:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
...oh and did you know fury increases your signature? you have to take power 6 of the penalty listed since you load into all of 6 launchers, these penalties are cumulative. this means you are easier to hit, easier to scan.

of course i am only talking about pve here since no sane person would use 60mil launchers for pvp, this is obvious stuff.


Well for pvp yes your signature goes up to about 260M with no implants whatsoever and assuming your rigg skills are at lvl4 witch is dumb for such important stat in pvp with this ship, oc if you add shield extenders...

Now for the stacking penalty what do you need? -skills and also know penalty application where you'll learn that after 3 the penalty % applied becomes insignificant, so even in pvp vs med sized ships the use of T2 ammo can be a good choice since you're supposed to speed tank with ships like tengu but wouldn't say the same for the drake.

But since T2 launchers can use faction ammo and are cheaper than faction launchers I don't think 0.35s is worthy of all those millions even for pve. It's a game, not a job where 0.35sec can make the difference in front of your boss Wink


 

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