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blankseplocked The danger of the nullsec, non-industrialist CSM
 
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Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:20:00 - [1]
 

Originally by: May CSM Summit Minutes
The CSM believes that nullsec needs to be more self-sufficient from hisec, at the industrial level.

Dr. Eyjo pointed out that presently the EVE economy is designed intentionally to keep nullsec and hisec interdependent in terms of their markets. The CSM reiterated that they wanted markets to be spread out more, rather than everything being exported from Jita into Nullsec.


Allowing nullsec to become more industrially self-sufficient will kill T1 manufacture in hisec, depriving new players of the avenue of deriving income from industry. This will increase the dependence on mission-running or ratting as an income stream - especially if CCP ends up entirely removing ice from hisec.

To solve the "problem" of hauling materials from Jita to nullsec, either provide the security required to mine veldspar in nullsec ("superveldspar" is the wrong way to handle the problem), or provide the security required to carry bulk materials from hisec to nullsec. The fact of the matter is that there is no economic incentive to mine veldspar in nullsec due to the sheer volume of tritanium that needs to be moved around.

One option is to increase the availability of high-grade refineries in nullsec - perhaps a nullsec or sov-only refinery module for POSes that will have higher refining efficiency. Perhaps an iHUB upgrade that will provide higher refining efficiency. Perhaps consider allowing character skills and implants to have an effect on POS refineries.

In the real world we offshore a lot of production to Eastern Europe or China because that is where the cheap labour is found. In EVE we do the same thing - the cheap labour is hisec where people can mine veldspar with no fear of losing their 150M ISK Hulk or 500M ISK Orca. They just sip wine and talk nonsense with their friends while enjoying the relaxing pass-time of mining.

Labour in nullsec is more expensive because the players need to provide their own security. Sipping wine and talking nonsense while not paying attention to intel channels costs ships. Thus it makes absolutely no sense to expect that there be some means of making nullsec "self-sufficient" in terms of mining.

As for markets - to spread markets out you don't kill them. What needs to be done is to look at what makes Jita so big and powerful: the network effect. Everyone goes to Jita 4-4 because everyone goes to Jita 4-4.

Now look at the real world. What happens when everyone goes to London? that's right, London gets congested. The roads can only carry so many cars. There are physical limits on storage capacity. There are physical limits on the tonnage that can enter and leave the city during any period of time.

Look at any cargo or bulk harbour. Ships are marshalled in and out. Berths are allocated, berthing fees are paid, transfers take time. You can't load more ore into ships than you can hold in your holding yards.

So rather than magically teleporting products to nullsec, simply enforce the logical limits of trade. This isn't commerce - we aren't dealing with orders for materials we are dealing with bulk transport.

Stations should have limits to the number and tonnage of ships entering/exiting. Stations should have limits to goods stored.

Then there are the star gates. Look at any bridge: there is a limit to how much traffic can cross it. The same should apply to stargates. The relevant authority should be able to upgrade the gate e.g.: anchoring something like an SBU to increase or decrease the capacity of the gate.

With more logistics pressure the market will become more dynamic, with more to think about than simply, "lowest sell price in Jita".

The current nullsec mindset of many CSM candidates is dangerously skewing the views of of the CSM as a whole. There is more to EVE than nullsec.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:26:00 - [2]
 

The danger of the "superveldspar" mindset is that they feel the economics of supply can be answered by overabundance. What will happen if "superveldspar" is introduced is that veldspar and tritanium will become even less valuable, and thus even less attractive to everyone. At worst, superveldspar will become the only economically viable source of tritanium, killing hisec mining. At best, superveldspar will not be worth mining and the status quo remains.

There are copious quantities of veldspar in nullec, the problem with mining it being not just the yield but the sheer volume of tritanium required to build anything. The issue is not hauling veldspar, the issue is hauling tritanium. Even hauler spawns end up being ignored because noone wants to haul 40k m3 of tritanium from a belt when there are reds three systems over.

Other than increasing system security or enhancing logistics security, one game design approach would be to reduce the quantities of tritanium required for everything, reduce the volume of tritanium itself, provide better mineral compression, or severely reduce the volumes of veldspar available everywhere.

"Superveldspar" is not a solution to any problem. The nullsec CSM seems entirely too focussed on what they want for building their war machines, and unaware of the ramifications of their desired game changes on the future of the rest of the game.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:34:00 - [3]
 

Discussion of limiting ingress/egress/tonnage in stations has been discussed before. Apparently the ability of an airforce to simultaneously launch 30 fighter jets from a controlled runway is supposed to reflect on the ability to dock supertankers at petroleum facilities. Fighters in formation are a different beast entirely to supertankers, bulk haulers and container ships.

Placing limitations on the number of ships entering a station per minute (i.e.: enforcing minimum delays between ships entering) will go a long way to breaking Jita 4-4 into multiple smaller markets.

Further expanding the simple seconds-per-ship delay to stargates will encourage pilots to become more careful about planning and scouting. Allowing local authorities (nullsec sov holders, faction militia) to modify stargates will provide for better logistics routes, along with providing more targets for military action (e.g.: hacking gate boosters to temporarily disable them, thus allowing your invasion fleet or blocking the other guy's freighter convoy).

Roonia
Posted - 2011.07.13 02:25:00 - [4]
 

T1 production is already dead because of missions and overproduction.

T1 modules overall are very expensive in null sec. Generally people in null sec tend to manufacture high end products like Titans and Super Caps. The minerals are not shipped out in bulk from Jita, but compressed.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.13 08:23:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Roonia
T1 production is already dead because of missions and overproduction.


There is still profit to be made. Profits go up considerably when large battles in nullsec end up consuming scores of supercaps.

Quote:
T1 modules overall are very expensive in null sec. Generally people in null sec tend to manufacture high end products like Titans and Super Caps.


What is the cause of the expense: Lack of security for mining? Lack of interest in mining low ends? Logistics? Poor quality of POS refineries? Lack of build slots? Poor yield of nullsec veldspar?

Why aren't pilots taking advantage of the opportunity to buy stuff in hisec, sell it in nullsec?

Quote:
The minerals are not shipped out in bulk from Jita, but compressed.


The issue is still the volume of tritanium required. Why would you have spreadsheets detailing the best modules to manufacture to provide the mineral compression in the proportions required for the ships you are building, if the volume of the minerals themselves wasn't a concern?

Of course the CSM don't understand the issues, they are nullsec warlords (well, then there is the chairman who doesn't even play the game or understand w-space). The CSM didn't understand the impact of "ship created from nothing" before their logistics guys clued them in. The few nullsec industrialists that do exist are burning out because no combat pilot wants to escort freighters, jump bridge networks were a pain to maintain, and alliance leadership treats them as second rate citizens.

Adding "super veldspar" is not going to make life easier for nullsec industry. Removing ABC from w-space is not going to help nullsec industry. What will help nullsec industry is some of what CSM is giving words but no thought to: the "farms and fields" where the focus is on lots of little infrastructure, giving industrialists better facilities than are available in hisec, each of which is vulnerable to small fleets. Such a system needs to be thought out and planned carefully, which I fear is above the capacity of the current CSM.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:33:00 - [6]
 

Your concern is based on the assumption that changes will be "as is" just bigger, which I sincerely hope will not be the case.

- High-sec T1 production has 1-5% margins at best, not a lot of ISK made that way. That it exists at all is due to surplus slots and minerals.
- T1 modules take up a lot of space and are thus not convenient to haul anywhere, least of all null after bridge changes.
- Mining is null suffers the same problem that is the cause of the rampant botting .. it is BORING! No amount of super asteroids or security will change that.

As for spreading out markets: Do what is done in the real world when ever loads of money condenses into one area .. tax the snot out of it.
Increase transaction fees based on ISK changing hands in any given station/system with a discount to corps who managed to snag an office in the relevant station .. smaller hubs will grow out from the bigger ones and eventually (couple of years probably) contract into larger ones so instead of Rens/Jita/Amarr we will have 10-20 roughly equal hubs.

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:06:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Sinikka Huiputti on 13/07/2011 13:07:51
there's a good point about product magically appearing in nullsec. logistics and jump routes are just too short which makes hauling require very little effort = no profit.

and again everyone forgets low sec though, it's just place you pass while going to null in cloaky hauler or jump freighter.

self sufficient should mean that it's worth of trouble to haul modules and materials there







Icke Himal
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:12:00 - [8]
 

Mara´s arguments sound like they make sense and for me +1 so far.

The Question for me here is, what exactly is CSM planning?

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:43:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
What is the cause of the expense: Lack of security for mining? Lack of interest in mining low ends? Logistics? Poor quality of POS refineries? Lack of build slots? Poor yield of nullsec veldspar?

Why aren't pilots taking advantage of the opportunity to buy stuff in hisec, sell it in nullsec?

Simple. Due to risks of null sec, solo or small group industrial work does not exist. Because it takes so many people/accounts to do industry in null, there is little reason to produce things with slim margins. Why would my corp build rifters at a 2% margin when we can build caps at a 20% margin (numbers are not exact, just for illustration)?

1. The risk of mining low ends are not worth it for small mining groups, and thus not seeding into the market (as the bigger groups are in industrial corps that use all the minerals miners provide and more).
2. The low demand for small T1 items in null. Other than the occasional rifter fleet, very few players fly sub-BC T1 stuff in null. Most T1 hulls are used for T2/faction hull production, leading to the next point...
3. The high demand for things that require hauling from multiple regions to begin with (such as T2 and faction production) - since you are already spending a lot of time hauling, it makes sense to haul the T1 hulls as well.
4. Carrier proliferation. The supply of carrier/pilots is high, so the cost of hauling ships is low.
5. Production efficiency is substantially lower in null sec than high sec, due to the base efficiency of outposts and POSs.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:18:00 - [10]
 

Would the addition of an industry IHUB upgrade which improves efficiency of refineries and the speed of assembly lines/labs be worth considering?

I do not support the idea of increasing invention chance since that will directly impact the data core market.

I would prefer to see industry boosted in POSes rather than outposts/stations since they are softer targets than outposts or stations. There is also the possibility of introducing the ability to hack a POS structure to steal moon goo, discover what is being manufactured/invented/researched, interrupt jobs in progress, pause a job, etc.

Of course, I am also keen to see all stations in the entire game reduced in efficiency so that POSes become the more attractive option. But that is only because I am already ticked off about NPC mining corporations having poorer quality refineries than NPC navies or commercial stations.

Eperor
Posted - 2011.07.14 13:40:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Eperor on 14/07/2011 13:44:32
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Would the addition of an industry IHUB upgrade which improves efficiency of refineries and the speed of assembly lines/labs be worth considering?

I do not support the idea of increasing invention chance since that will directly impact the data core market.

I would prefer to see industry boosted in POSes rather than outposts/stations since they are softer targets than outposts or stations. There is also the possibility of introducing the ability to hack a POS structure to steal moon goo, discover what is being manufactured/invented/researched, interrupt jobs in progress, pause a job, etc.

Of course, I am also keen to see all stations in the entire game reduced in efficiency so that POSes become the more attractive option. But that is only because I am already ticked off about NPC mining corporations having poorer quality refineries than NPC navies or commercial stations.



I wil answer this as iproducing stuf in 0.0 actualy produced stoped now duing no income atall form manufucturing and **** loud off hauling.

1. Would the addition of an industry IHUB upgrade which improves efficiency of refineries and the speed of assembly lines/labs be worth considering?
NO duing serveral tings :
a) in POSes produce soemting is pain itn the ass, low capacitys to store materials and ready production each time yyou ned brig fregter to POS to manage your jobs that silly.
b) Labs allready forking ok there no need changes actualy.

I would prefer to see industry boosted in POSes rather than outposts/stations since they are softer targets than outposts or stations. There is also the possibility of introducing the ability to hack a POS structure to steal moon goo, discover what is being manufactured/invented/researched, interrupt jobs in progress, pause a job, etc.
Production only out posts not so much profits to cover a POS cost its self to cover standart large tower you need produce with 120 Slots araund a 5 months to cover PSOes and mods if its lost, so than need to incrrease soem how margins that pll can cover it and ern isk not lose it all the time. And Slot cost in PSOes are expensiver that in station duing the fuel cost increase from PI and ice product price increase last monhts.

3. Of course, I am also keen to see all stations in the entire game reduced in efficiency so that POSes become the more attractive option. But that is only because I am already ticked off about NPC mining corporations having poorer quality refineries than NPC navies or commercial stations.
No need to to this ICE and Pi allready to expensive even soe m reactions cant ern back POS fueles. And soon ppl wil see that t2 inceases in price duing a reaction price increase.

One more ting no corporation its intereseted in to private manufucturing and selinf stuf ans no one from CEO wil send out pvp fleet ot protect some silly manufucturer (even if hee is in his corp) or miner inbelt with moving his assets to 0.0 or back to empire for sell. than need soem system how corps to get intereseted int to thet to send out pvp fleets to protect them nedto meak so that tis psoibul that corp to gets soem margin rom memebr actuivtity aderways only ratters suporting corporation but manufcutrers, miners, traders nto suports corp attal hjust pocking his pockets full.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:36:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Would the addition of an industry IHUB upgrade which improves efficiency of refineries and the speed of assembly lines/labs be worth considering?

I do not support the idea of increasing invention chance since that will directly impact the data core market.

I would prefer to see industry boosted in POSes rather than outposts/stations since they are softer targets than outposts or stations. There is also the possibility of introducing the ability to hack a POS structure to steal moon goo, discover what is being manufactured/invented/researched, interrupt jobs in progress, pause a job, etc.

Of course, I am also keen to see all stations in the entire game reduced in efficiency so that POSes become the more attractive option. But that is only because I am already ticked off about NPC mining corporations having poorer quality refineries than NPC navies or commercial stations.


The problem has a lot to do with so many parts of manufacturing already requires jumps to high sec, that the price to produce would have to be lower in null sec than high sec. If you do that, you will reverse the problem and suddenly high sec would be flooded with stuff produced in null sec. That problem stems from all the jump freighters and carriers having to move back and forth to supply everything and the empty room being filled with whatever random stuff they want to bring to seed the market. If it were reversed, the problem would likely be amplified as the ships are rarely able to be filled currently when going from null to high sec, as the only stuff being hauled is loot not worth reprocessing.

I honestly think that the way to improve industry in null is throw low ends at the problem, in a way that they can't simply be passed over, such as some kind of hauler spawn plex/anom type of thing. Mining isn't done solo, but ratting is. Forcing ratting income to also be in the form of minerals would reduce the isk inflation a bit as well as seed markets in null with low end minerals. This would have to be followed up with equalizing the industrial efficiency in null as in empire or the low ends would likely just start piling up then become the "ugh, I got another hauler... skip."

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.15 02:11:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mara Rinn on 15/07/2011 02:12:28
Do many people actually pick up minerals from hauler spawns?

Or more to the point, does a significant quantity of the minerals dropped by hauler spawns actually get used?

Eperor
Posted - 2011.08.08 11:17:00 - [14]
 

minerals are to hevy thatusual rater can pick them up witout switing ship, i personaly tink that minerals nedeto come form mining only not from procesing or wath ever. Mining long time waits for boost. Can be bosted low end mining in 0.0 by incresing mineral amount in the one veldspar or ader ore units. Only no need fo increase ABC ores thos are okay. But to ned to increase in 0.0 not in low sec or in high sec high sec ned to stay how it is.

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:18:00 - [15]
 

It seems to me, that you have given the matter some serious thought.

Yes we still produce as much as possible in 0.0 .

You should also consider some basics first.


1. There are far too less minerals available.

Either because mining makes not much sense. You always lack the miners because of security issues. The miners won't go to null because its not secure (enough) and it's in fact impossible to maintain a security level which would appease them.

Anchoring some bubbles and having at least a small fleet on standby is not a problem. The problem is, that this small fleet can probably kill or fight off the enemy, but cannot prevent the miners from getting killed. It takes a special kind of miner(character) to actually read the intels, be on voice-comms and coordinate with a defense fleet.

Since mining is by default a really boring and half-afk activity more often than not, most will die.



2. There are not enough slots, and if you have the slots the minerals are elsewhere.

You can only refine in a Minmatar station and the slots are mainly in Amarr stations. Using haulers and freighters is a time-consuming Task, which needs to be planned ahead and a substantial fleet, which will probably able to kill everyone but not be able to save your freighter. You probably do not believe that it takes even a small fleet a very short amount of time to kill a freighter.

3. All the slots are always full. You have an Amarr station every 10 or 15 systems with half as many slots as an average high-sec station. Also the holding corp/alliance sets and gets the fees, so producing is mostly expensive.

4. POS is not an option because, one has to mistrust everyone and production at a POS needs far to many rights and roles, not to mention that the role administration under the current system is a pain in itself.


 

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