open All Channels
seplocked EVE Fiction
blankseplocked Cloning without a Capsule
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Neshtek
Posted - 2011.07.12 09:28:00 - [1]
 

Hi, I have searched for this, but while there are many topics about various questions regarding the lore behind cloning, I haven't found a definite answer to this. Still, I'm almost sure this had to have been discussed before.

How exactly does the clone process work if your standard capsuleer is disconnected from his Pod? As far as I understood it while reading some of the related chronicles, being connected to a Pod or similar equipment is an absolute necessity of the cloning process, since the technology involved is extremely advanced and therefore delicate. I'm sure the lore must in some way enable the capsuleers to clone while outside of a pod, because if that wasn't the case, no capsuleer would ever venture outside it - after all, why would he gamble his immortality by risking being assassinated, becoming the victim of a simple accident etc? However, many chronicles and short stories depict capsuleers doing just that.

I'd much appreciate if someone could answer this, and I'm sorry if this has been brought up before, but as I said, I couldn't find anything using the forum search.

Neshtek
Posted - 2011.07.13 10:30:00 - [2]
 

Shameless bump.

I'm really surprised that nobody seems to have an answer to this. I love the fiction behind EVE and I'd be stupefied if what appears to be a rather obvious logical fallacy had never been discussed before. There are lots of very talented people working on and with the EVE lore, so I can't really imagine that there's no explanation for this which I somehow managed to overlook. Please help me out here?

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.13 11:43:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet on 13/07/2011 11:43:08
Nanobots and Jovians.
Read part 1: http://www.dust514.com/en/chronicles/


(I just noticed there are 3 parts out now. Thanks for the thread, OP!)

Precentor Saggitus
Amarr
Expeditionary Defense Fleet
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:47:00 - [4]
 

There is lots of evidence that the pod process isn't intrinsic to the cloning process. In the fiction its often presented that many non capsuleers of wealthy means have some access to varying capabilities of clones. For example, Otro Gariushi (CEO of Ishukone in Emyrean age) has backup clones which are apparently destroyed with the station. The broker also makes use of another possible use of consiousnes transfer which doesn't require necesarily the use of a pod, or even possibly makes use of multiple active clones at a time.

The only thing that the pod is required for is to interface a clone with a ship as well to provide an instantaeneous mind scan at the moment of pod penetration and data transfer to another clone. Having various clone grades in game it obvious that new clones when created are implanted with memories up to a certain point, one would assume that whenever a capsuleer updates a clone it is done through some sort of non-lethal scanning process, which probably takes longer than the instant-pod-breach-kill-clone style of data transfer.

I imagine that depending on one's means in the EVE universe that one could access various types of cloning service, right from say a back up bank of dna to clone spare parts from to the high end capsuleer/jumpclone utility.

Neshtek
Posted - 2011.07.13 20:07:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Edited by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet on 13/07/2011 11:43:08
Nanobots and Jovians.
Read part 1: http://www.dust514.com/en/chronicles/


(I just noticed there are 3 parts out now. Thanks for the thread, OP!)


While this chronicle is exemplary of the problem, it does not offer any explanation on how the process of capsule-less cloning works. I'm afraid something like "Nanobots, lol" is likely, although it has been stated that the "Nanobots and Jovians" comment was meant as a joke.

Quote:
There is lots of evidence that the pod process isn't intrinsic to the cloning process. In the fiction its often presented that many non capsuleers of wealthy means have some access to varying capabilities of clones. For example, Otro Gariushi (CEO of Ishukone in Emyrean age) has backup clones which are apparently destroyed with the station. The broker also makes use of another possible use of consiousnes transfer which doesn't require necesarily the use of a pod, or even possibly makes use of multiple active clones at a time. The only thing that the pod is required for is to interface a clone with a ship as well to provide an instantaeneous mind scan at the moment of pod penetration and data transfer to another clone. Having various clone grades in game it obvious that new clones when created are implanted with memories up to a certain point, one would assume that whenever a capsuleer updates a clone it is done through some sort of non-lethal scanning process, which probably takes longer than the instant-pod-breach-kill-clone style of data transfer. I imagine that depending on one's means in the EVE universe that one could access various types of cloning service, right from say a back up bank of dna to clone spare parts from to the high end capsuleer/jumpclone utility.


I've read The Empyrean Age, and the death of Gariushi is a good example of a capsuleer needlessly dying because he has left the confines of his pod. According to this Evelopedia article a device known as a transneural burning scanner is necessary to complete the cloning process. The neural snapshot of the brain created by this device is lethal, which effectively means that one can not create "back ups" of oneself, since the original clone would always be destroyed in the process. Also, in the article this equipment is described as being mounted on vehicles or installed in facilities, making it unlikely to be carried around and concealed on a person.

However, as you said, this seems to contradict the reality of jumpclones, during which the original clone stays intact, including implants etc.

The technology employed by the Broker seems to be unique and, as mentioned above, to work differently altogether, which means it is highly unlikely to be used or even known by the standard capsuleer. It does not pertain directly to my question. I realize there are bound to be contradictions when various people work on a project as immense as the fiction of EVE, but again, I find the uncertainties in regard to cloning rather extensive.

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2011.07.13 20:28:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 13/07/2011 20:28:39
What makes a capsuleer special is that they represent the marriage of two pre-existing technologies: capsules, and cloning.

Cloning technology existed independently of capsules, and it makes sense that forms of it would continue to do so even now.

The specfics of this and cloning in general are still being hammered out internally, but it's on our agenda to rework it and clarify the sorts of questions you're asking.


Neshtek
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:06:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 13/07/2011 20:28:39
What makes a capsuleer special is that they represent the marriage of two pre-existing technologies: capsules, and cloning.

Cloning technology existed independently of capsules, and it makes sense that forms of it would continue to do so even now.

The specfics of this and cloning in general are still being hammered out internally, but it's on our agenda to rework it and clarify the sorts of questions you're asking.




Thanks for the reply, Dropbear! It's awesome to see the Devs checking up regularly on these forums, I think you're doing a great job.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:23:00 - [8]
 

If I'm not mistaken the pods cloning systems are only fatal since it has to happen so quickly (less than a second). With a little more time I'm sure a brain scan can save important information at that time.

If I am correct this would mean that if you where to die after this brain scan all your memories would go with you... although making a clone from your 'last save' is very possible. It wouldn't surprise me that an capsuleer with a pension for self preservation would likely have saved brain scans saved in case the pod failed. Again same time loss of memory from the time between scan and time of death.

Gives me an idea for a story whereas a capsuleer out of their pod is murdered and has to do a crime scene investigation on their own murder. Kinda creapy Shocked

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.19 08:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

The specfics of this and cloning in general are still being hammered out internally, but it's on our agenda to rework it and clarify the sorts of questions you're asking.



Good to hear. There are definitely some big discrepancies surrounding cloning that need to be hammered down.

Quetazal
Gallente
Clann Fian
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2011.07.20 11:56:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Quetazal on 20/07/2011 12:14:18
Aye, you cannot be mindscanned outside of a pod because brain death might not occur and the mindscan would leave you brain damaged. This cloning is illegal outside of the pod, and can only take place reliably from within a pod because when a pod is breeched there is a 100% chance death will occur.

Dropbear - personally I think it is really shoddy of CCP to disregard such an important piece of lore (and no the Jita 4-4 story is not an answer of how) with the release of Incarna; this just reflects to the players how rushed and unstructured the Incarna release has been. The lore should of been amended before Incarna (or at the same time) with a concrete explanation.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/eggers/egg_02.asp

Quote:
process relies on a brain-scan snapshot being taken at the precise time of death and transmitted to the waiting clone, and so the transneural burning scanner required to do so needs to be mounted somewhere close to the person at all times. Since the snapshot itself causes massive physical damage to the gray matter, there can be no margin of error; it needs to be done at the exact time of death.


Quote:
but the almost limitless potentiality of planet-bound environments has proved time and again that it just isn’t safe – snapshots either go off due to false stimuli, leaving healthy clients in a vegetative state, or fail to go off due to circumstances unforeseen by the safeguard mechanism, leaving clients dead with no chance of retransplantation.


Quote:
....pod breach, without exception, spells doom for the person inside. Therefore, the instant the egg begins to crack, two things happen: the wire-cap on the pilot’s head injects an instantly lethal nanotoxin into his bloodstream and the scanner sends its piercing light into his skull. Scarce seconds later, he begins the muddy climb towards consciousness in a new body, light years away....


At the moment I am forced to leave my pod everytime I dock; if I leave my pod I can suffer permanent death (trip over a railing and fall off the balcony). So:

Why is an immortal being forced to leave his pod? It again makes no sense in the EvE universe

How can such a core piece of EvEs lore be flouted so dispassionately and flagrantly by CCP - what message does this indeed send to all the players who have this lore long since ingrained. It's like you are sending out the message to all who can listen that you do not really care at all.. is it any wonder for the apathy the players are experiencing at the moment if their very existence is being questioned on a core unconscious level? - indeed this proves EvE is not real?

This needs to be fixed. Why is time being spent on 'EvE is real' when the core game lore has been damaged; and how can you Dropbear allow such an obscenity to exist?


Azahni Vah'nos
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:05:00 - [11]
 

One way it could be explained is if the Transneural Burning Scanner with attached Nanotoxin injector is implanted within the brain during the cloning process. Upon the body going critical due to injury this would then initiate the information being transmitted to local electronic relay stations and then sent to the waiting clone. The overall process is then basically the same as it is now except there is no external scanner or injector.

Also this process can still be initiated at pod breach as it is now, we just don't have anything sitting externally on our heads.

This would explain a capsuleer not dying if killed outside of the pod and the dusties being moved to another clone upon death.



Anyway that's my take on how to explain it.


Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:48:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos
One way it could be explained is if the Transneural Burning Scanner with attached Nanotoxin injector is implanted within the brain during the cloning process. Upon the body going critical due to injury this would then initiate the information being transmitted to local electronic relay stations and then sent to the waiting clone. The overall process is then basically the same as it is now except there is no external scanner or injector.

Also this process can still be initiated at pod breach as it is now, we just don't have anything sitting externally on our heads.

This would explain a capsuleer not dying if killed outside of the pod and the dusties being moved to another clone upon death.



Anyway that's my take on how to explain it.




Works for me. It's elegant in that it doesn't require a retcon.

Concord puts out a news advisory announcing a scientific breakthrough in minaturization, and requesting that all capsuleers report to a cloning facility for a free clone upgrade with the new miniaturized and automated internal transneural burning scanner and nanotoxin injector, forever freeing them from the fear of being killed while outside their pods.

Of course, knowing Concord they would keep a kill-switch...

Azahni Vah'nos
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:02:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Esan Vartesa
Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos
One way it could be explained is if the Transneural Burning Scanner with attached Nanotoxin injector is implanted within the brain during the cloning process. Upon the body going critical due to injury this would then initiate the information being transmitted to local electronic relay stations and then sent to the waiting clone. The overall process is then basically the same as it is now except there is no external scanner or injector.

Also this process can still be initiated at pod breach as it is now, we just don't have anything sitting externally on our heads.

This would explain a capsuleer not dying if killed outside of the pod and the dusties being moved to another clone upon death.



Anyway that's my take on how to explain it.




Works for me. It's elegant in that it doesn't require a retcon.

Concord puts out a news advisory announcing a scientific breakthrough in minaturization, and requesting that all capsuleers report to a cloning facility for a free clone upgrade with the new miniaturized and automated internal transneural burning scanner and nanotoxin injector, forever freeing them from the fear of being killed while outside their pods.

Of course, knowing Concord they would keep a kill-switch...


Even the Concord portion can be explained by the fact that whilst you are in your pod you are electronically shielded from anyone setting it off externally. The pod being the 'relay station' for the captured information from the capsuleer therefore no external influence is required. This also allows pirates to continue to work outside of Concords laws without being 'kill-switched'.

We are supposed gods whilst in our pods after all :P

Shandril silvermoon
Posted - 2011.07.20 19:40:00 - [14]
 

here a quote taken from the cloning part of "the capsule & the clone" from the scientific articles :

Quote:
While new techniques in clone creation and retransplantation have made the process cheaper and more efficient today than ever before, the inherent unreliability of non-capsule cloning and the still-extravagant cost involved for prospective clients effectively prohibits the vast majority of planetside inhabitants from considering it an option. Additionally, moral and religious objections to the work done in the field have surfaced to some extent in every society where its products have become available. Derogatorily known as “Doomies” by those who don’t share their beliefs, these objectors, sometimes numbering among them major political and religious figureheads, have nonetheless exerted a considerable amount of influence on the way cloning is perceived by the general populace. Protests and riots over the issue, while rare, have taken place on numerous worlds since commercial cloning began, and while the cloning companies’ ceaseless marketing has yielded significantly greater public acceptance in the past few years, a number of people still feel strongly that the whole field represents a denial of humanity’s spirituality and should be abandoned for “safer” scientific pursuits. Despite the advances made in cloning tech, in almost every single environment retransplantation of the mind at time of death is still risky ground. The crucial element in the process relies on a brain-scan snapshot being taken at the precise time of death and transmitted to the waiting clone, and so the transneural burning scanner required to do so needs to be mounted somewhere close to the person at all times. Since the snapshot itself causes massive physical damage to the gray matter, there can be no margin of error; it needs to be done at the exact time of death. In planetary vehicles, the cloning companies have experimented with mounting the transneural scanner in a variety of locations, but the almost limitless potentiality of planet-bound environments has proved time and again that it just isn’t safe – snapshots either go off due to false stimuli, leaving healthy clients in a vegetative state, or fail to go off due to circumstances unforeseen by the safeguard mechanism, leaving clients dead with no chance of retransplantation. In the capsule, however, things are different. All the equipment needs to do is detect a breach in the pod, because – as every cadet has hammered into his head from the moment he starts training – pod breach, without exception, spells doom for the person inside. Therefore, the instant the egg begins to crack, two things happen: the wire-cap on the pilot’s head injects an instantly lethal nanotoxin into his bloodstream and the scanner sends its piercing light into his skull. Scarce seconds later, he begins the muddy climb towards consciousness in a new body, light years away.


I hope it help a bit

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.21 23:41:00 - [15]
 

I do not know if its mentioned in the Lore or not but is it possible to jam the clone signal of someone's pod? meaning the brain Xerox machine still fires off but the signal never reaches a station. that would be a good way to assassinate someone in a pod. though id imagine it would be easier to just use advanced intel, know where they are cloned and have someone pop em in the head as soon as they step out of the tube.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.07.22 03:56:00 - [16]
 

Cant jam the signal like you can jam coms. Faster than light coms run off quantum pairing.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/communication/

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.22 09:54:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
Cant jam the signal like you can jam coms. Faster than light coms run off quantum pairing.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/communication/


While generally true given the technology level of the Empires & Capsuleers, this may not be absolutely true. There is an indication that the cloning signal of Empress Sarum was interfered with in the Empyrean Age.

Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.07.23 04:57:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
Cant jam the signal like you can jam coms. Faster than light coms run off quantum pairing.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/communication/


While generally true given the technology level of the Empires & Capsuleers, this may not be absolutely true. There is an indication that the cloning signal of Empress Sarum was interfered with in the Empyrean Age.


While generally true that CCP T0nyG is the IP manager. There in an indication that the IP was interfered with deliberately ignored in the Empyrean Age.
Rolling Eyes


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only