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blankseplocked [Proposal] Change of scan mechanic/make snipers viable
 
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:52:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: TZeer on 10/07/2011 18:03:31
During the old scan mechanics the time for a scan was much higher then what is present today.

Sniping was a possible tactic, but you could never stay on the same spot for longer period of time, due to people getting a spot on you.

Then the mechanic we have now got implemented, and sniping as a viable tactic kinda disappeared. Probes deployed, meant they would have a spot in 5 sec. So there was really no point going sniping since anyone could get on top of you really fast.

Enter the unprobable setups. This made us and other groups able to use snipers. Probes in the water didnt mean you would get 30+ peeps landing on top of your head before you had aligned. That it was impossible to probe out in general was just a pure bonus.

My proposal: Increase scan time for scanning down player controlled ships. This can be done with increasing the scan time with the combat scanner probes and deep space scanner probes.

It makes sniping a viable tactic, even if there are probes in the water. But it makes it a hit and run tactic.

Alignment time for a average BS is around 12 seconds. That's from a stand still point. Then add up the deceleration time from coming out of warp.
Scan time with combat probes: Around 5 seconds.

Conclusion: Sniping with probes in the water is kinda equal to hitting self destruct when you are initiating warp.



Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:56:00 - [2]
 

Gladly supported. :)

+1

prooon
Wombats in Combat
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:26:00 - [3]
 

change mininum warp distance to 250+ km.

Needa3
Minmatar
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:09:00 - [4]
 

agreed, bring small gang pvp back

Broker Al
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:09:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Broker Al on 10/07/2011 22:09:32
I can suppport this.

Bodo Bass
Minmatar
Templars of Space
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:13:00 - [6]
 

yep yep yep

FIX PVP

Aionez
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:20:00 - [7]
 

hate burn eden, actually they suck

but they are fun to fight and they had a good set up strategy with their snipers
\give em their toys beack

Milonia
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:44:00 - [8]
 

No.

Make minimum warp distance farther, but do NOT make it longer to scan someone down. This would have been fine when you couldnt put a filter with probes on your overview. Now that any decent PvPer or low sec mission runner can see probes on directional it already made probing people down in space THAT much harder before they leave.

Roonia
Posted - 2011.07.10 23:33:00 - [9]
 

+1

Mauryce
Posted - 2011.07.11 01:43:00 - [10]
 

Nice topic. Improbeables BE´s Machariels and T3 have died with Incarna´s patch. Probably a good nanofit can solve your problem.

Not support.

Morar Santee
Posted - 2011.07.11 02:23:00 - [11]
 

Nice.

Of course the reasoning in the OP completely ignores the fact that probing a target has **** all to do with tackling them.

In order to tackle a target, you need a hit from the probes and you need to warp in. As the ships warping in have to align as well, the formula looks like this:

5 secs probing time + X seconds align time + 10 seconds warp time + Y seconds lock time = ALL THE ****ING TIME TO ALIGN!!!

Claiming you can not align before someone probes you out and tackles is a completely moronic statement. In short: You use sniping Machariels and want to live in a risk-free environment. Ok. No.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2011.07.11 07:07:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Morar Santee
Nice.

Of course the reasoning in the OP completely ignores the fact that probing a target has **** all to do with tackling them.

In order to tackle a target, you need a hit from the probes and you need to warp in. As the ships warping in have to align as well, the formula looks like this:

5 secs probing time + X seconds align time + 10 seconds warp time + Y seconds lock time = ALL THE ****ING TIME TO ALIGN!!!

Claiming you can not align before someone probes you out and tackles is a completely moronic statement. In short: You use sniping Machariels and want to live in a risk-free environment. Ok. No.


Pretty easy to do actually. Will not go into details, but we have been able to catch targets all the way down to frigs if they try to warp in at range.

When it comes to BS. We tested and tried on the test server. And there are no way for anyone in a BS to warp in, align and get out if the people behind the probing/tackling have half a brain with them.

For proof, you are welcome to bring a BS and test this out with us on the testserver at anytime.

Bendit
Posted - 2011.07.11 07:16:00 - [13]
 

It`s to easy to get a position on a sniper. Sniping is dead atm. Unless you really want to loose your ship.

Morar Santee
Posted - 2011.07.11 08:06:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: TZeer

Pretty easy to do actually. Will not go into details, but we have been able to catch targets all the way down to frigs if they try to warp in at range.

When it comes to BS. We tested and tried on the test server. And there are no way for anyone in a BS to warp in, align and get out if the people behind the probing/tackling have half a brain with them.

For proof, you are welcome to bring a BS and test this out with us on the testserver at anytime.


Alright, perhaps my reply was phrased a bit.. let's put it this way:

I think you have a somewhat valid concern, in so far as it is theoretically possible to catch a battleship that way in an optimal case scenario.
As far as I am concerned, the problem isn't really the probe timer here, but the fact that ships are dropping out of warp much slower than they used to. As in: They do not move anymore but sit there too long after deceleration has already taken place.
Somehow I have a feeling the probing changes lately didn't really help, either.

Now, changing the probe timers because it is theoretically possible to catch sniper ships in this fashion (I'll believe you that it works in your test runs on SiSi) and basically swing the balance the complete opposite way is really not the way to go.
It would screw up combat probing - and I really doubt the problem you're trying to address here is much of a problem at all. At least in so far as it isn't very widespread. Some of it could likely be prevented by smart use of bubbles, and if that doesn't do the trick: ECM support.
Making sniper ships uncatchable (or even substantially harder to catch) by giving them a more or less guaranteed chance to align out before something lands on them is not "allowing you to use them", but makes it mandatory to use them.

Currently there's advantages and drawbacks to sniper ships, and I'd really like to keep it that way.

Thank you for taking my earlier, rather unpleasant rant calmly.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.11 08:38:00 - [15]
 

Increasing warp-to boundary to 200-250km makes a lot more sense and doesn't negatively impact nearly as much as a combat probe nerf would.

Added tears from the thousands of people with tacticals spaced 151km around a million gates only sweetens the deal Very Happy

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2011.07.11 09:53:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Morar Santee
Originally by: TZeer

Pretty easy to do actually. Will not go into details, but we have been able to catch targets all the way down to frigs if they try to warp in at range.

When it comes to BS. We tested and tried on the test server. And there are no way for anyone in a BS to warp in, align and get out if the people behind the probing/tackling have half a brain with them.

For proof, you are welcome to bring a BS and test this out with us on the testserver at anytime.


Alright, perhaps my reply was phrased a bit.. let's put it this way:

I think you have a somewhat valid concern, in so far as it is theoretically possible to catch a battleship that way in an optimal case scenario.
As far as I am concerned, the problem isn't really the probe timer here, but the fact that ships are dropping out of warp much slower than they used to. As in: They do not move anymore but sit there too long after deceleration has already taken place.
Somehow I have a feeling the probing changes lately didn't really help, either.

Now, changing the probe timers because it is theoretically possible to catch sniper ships in this fashion (I'll believe you that it works in your test runs on SiSi) and basically swing the balance the complete opposite way is really not the way to go.
It would screw up combat probing - and I really doubt the problem you're trying to address here is much of a problem at all. At least in so far as it isn't very widespread. Some of it could likely be prevented by smart use of bubbles, and if that doesn't do the trick: ECM support.
Making sniper ships uncatchable (or even substantially harder to catch) by giving them a more or less guaranteed chance to align out before something lands on them is not "allowing you to use them", but makes it mandatory to use them.

Currently there's advantages and drawbacks to sniper ships, and I'd really like to keep it that way.

Thank you for taking my earlier, rather unpleasant rant calmly.


No worries.

I`ll try and explain a little better.

When I was referring to us catching targets all the way down to frig sizes, that was done on TQ, before the ECCM/unprobable nerf. That was not done on SISI.

The SISI test was us trying to see if there was any way to engage something if there was scanprobes deployed.

Conclusion after multiple testruns was that if there was any probes deployed it would be impossible to engage without loosing snipers. The group who was set up to try and catch the snipers basically had a 100% success rate in tackling them.




Mystical Might
Amarr
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.07.11 10:42:00 - [17]
 

Confirming Black LegionDOT don't use Sniper Hacs (Muninns yo.), and that most large fleets aren't composed of alpha battleships which come in at long distances...


Lolwait... They do, and they are...

Flying sniper setups hasn't changed to be honest.
You just failed to adapt, and so your way of gaming has died out.
Live with it, or change it and start flying them again in a different way.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:46:00 - [18]
 

Longer scan times for combat probes will break W-space combat probing.

Everyone is constantly staring at directional scanner around here so making it take even longer to scan people down will suck.


Mauryce
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:45:00 - [19]
 

Always dictors can be brought to block path with bubbles...

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2011.07.12 08:42:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Increasing warp-to boundary to 200-250km makes a lot more sense and doesn't negatively impact nearly as much as a combat probe nerf would.

Added tears from the thousands of people with tacticals spaced 151km around a million gates only sweetens the deal Very Happy


Could work as well.

Scanning in itself is ok, as long as it`s something you try to find off grid stations, gates etc.

But as soon as scanning moves to the mentioned areas, it just gets to easy.

Hit scan, wait 5 sec, warp to 0km.

Krall Junior
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:28:00 - [21]
 

seems hardly any of the ******s, besides the BE guys, understand the way they fight.

you nubheads need to remember that BE always fight outnumbered. stop thinking they are a blob just like most of you morons

and like BE said ... their snipers are tackable even before they come out of warp> took me no longer than 8 seconds to get on one.

so yeah

plus one to support the awesome pvp BE has brought for multiple years.

good tactics, skilled pilots and nice change to the blobs you nubcakes all love


CCP, fix the thing. Your quest for RL ISK has put you on track with what the whiners want so that you forgot about a corp that made eve.

Trinkets friend
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:53:00 - [22]
 

I couldn't give a flying fig about BurnEden's need to safely deploy, viz, sniping nightmares, sniping Blops, sniper machs or whatever other ship they wish to deploy in k-space at a gate. Their problem is they are deploying expensive ships to PVP and hate the fact an easy countermeasure exists to increase their risk to the point that it is untenable. Boo hoo. Find a new tactic.

Here's the facts: if you are sitting within 14 AU of someone, you're on scan (shocking statistic, huh?). If you are in a BS, someone needs to get 4 probes within 1 to 2 Au of you to get you at 100%. If someone can put those probes within 2 AU of you regardless of your safespot location, they get a warpable on you, and voila, you are boned. Their problem in doing so is reduced to zero if you are idling within 200km of a gate.

If your safespot is not within 250km of a celestial, this makes it harder. This is especially true if you are not within 1 AU, and especially so if you are not within 2 AU. But it does not make scanning you impossible - just harder. Skilled combat probers can give you as little as 5 seconds of probe time in the water on scan from you (assuming they have launched probes off scan). This is, viz. them putting in more effort than "deploy on gate hit scan" which only works on BurnEden and other whingers because they have crappy tactics.

Your problem is solved by, firstly, maintaining d-scan coverage of all areas of the solar system, and reacting to a combat probe launch accordingly. Second, not idling within 250km of a gate and crying when someone dumps probes on you. Thirdly, running d-scan and not relying solely on local to allow you to safe up like My Little Ponies when someone jumps in.

If you make probe scan times longer than the current minimum of about 5s (with perfect skills) then as previously mentioned, combat probing is dead. Real combat probing, not the hamfisted idiocy which nullsec and lowsec and hisec fools think is what you do with combat probes. As it stands, to be safe in w-space, you have to mash d-scan constantly. 10s (plus probe warp time) would make w-space too safe.

In short, adapt or diaf.


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.15 10:22:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: TZeer
Scanning in itself is ok, as long as it`s something you try to find off grid stations, gates etc....

Exactly my concern with the proposal, probing while available to anyone rewards not only investment/SP but experience.
Making changes to how probes work by extending time for instance will exclude all but the "leet" from partaking and that is not something I want to support willingly.
Originally by: Trinkets friend
<I have never probed down a ship in my life but is an expert nonetheless>

You have 2-4 full sets in space at all times. One at 0.5AU around target celestial, one with 1-2AU range and sets in neighbouring systems (reconnect to probes is awesome!).
Gangs such as the ones BE run must necessarily have safes relatively close to their target area or base travel time makes it so ineffectual that you might as well not bother.

Alternate solution (or in conjunction with increase in warp-to range):
- Make core probes capable of scanning down probes in general.
- Make all probes destructible (target/shoot).

Let the Cloak'n'Dagger crews wage their own little war behind the scenes. Has to be Cores to open door for using probes as "bait" so no point in having ships show when probe hunting .. Twisted Evil

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:38:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Trinkets friend
I couldn't give a flying fig about BurnEden's need to safely deploy, viz, sniping nightmares, sniping Blops, sniper machs or whatever other ship they wish to deploy in k-space at a gate. Their problem is they are deploying expensive ships to PVP and hate the fact an easy countermeasure exists to increase their risk to the point that it is untenable. Boo hoo. Find a new tactic.

Here's the facts: if you are sitting within 14 AU of someone, you're on scan (shocking statistic, huh?). If you are in a BS, someone needs to get 4 probes within 1 to 2 Au of you to get you at 100%. If someone can put those probes within 2 AU of you regardless of your safespot location, they get a warpable on you, and voila, you are boned. Their problem in doing so is reduced to zero if you are idling within 200km of a gate.

If your safespot is not within 250km of a celestial, this makes it harder. This is especially true if you are not within 1 AU, and especially so if you are not within 2 AU. But it does not make scanning you impossible - just harder. Skilled combat probers can give you as little as 5 seconds of probe time in the water on scan from you (assuming they have launched probes off scan). This is, viz. them putting in more effort than "deploy on gate hit scan" which only works on BurnEden and other whingers because they have crappy tactics.

Your problem is solved by, firstly, maintaining d-scan coverage of all areas of the solar system, and reacting to a combat probe launch accordingly. Second, not idling within 250km of a gate and crying when someone dumps probes on you. Thirdly, running d-scan and not relying solely on local to allow you to safe up like My Little Ponies when someone jumps in.

If you make probe scan times longer than the current minimum of about 5s (with perfect skills) then as previously mentioned, combat probing is dead. Real combat probing, not the hamfisted idiocy which nullsec and lowsec and hisec fools think is what you do with combat probes. As it stands, to be safe in w-space, you have to mash d-scan constantly. 10s (plus probe warp time) would make w-space too safe.

In short, adapt or diaf.




Not only is your post full of factually wrong information (You can get a 100% hit on a BS with probes at 8AU, just fyi) but you are ignoring (mainly due to the fact that you were somehow manhandled by BE at some point in time) the fact that the probing changes completely negated an entire fleet type (Fleet Sniper BS) and what these new probing times have done to on grid combat probing (2 forces on the same grid, usually each will have a prober in fleet with probes deployed on grid, giving a 100% hit in 5 seconds to the other fleet).

This has pretty much changed the face of battleship combat to be either arty abbadons or arty maels, there is no reason to bring anything else to a fleet fight, as there is no reason to be able to hit farther than either of those ships is currently able.

Also you should stop being so mad that people think of things/spend money on things that you are unable to, it shows all over your post.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.16 01:41:00 - [25]
 

So basically the discussion is we've going from one near-impossible situation (catching an unprobable sniper BS) to the show being on the other foot, if the snipers are facing competent enemies. I can see the call for a happy medium, but the fact that fighting in or against sniper BSes leaves so little room for error on either side, finding that balance is difficult. For the term of the unprobable ship, the ball has been firmly in the sniper's court. While I personally enjoy the change, I do see the inequality.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.07.16 03:11:00 - [26]
 

Got my support. As is probing a ship down in 5 secs is bs. Second Battle Ships this day and age are not much good in pvp other then sniping. Ya you can use one but you can spend less isk on a smaller faster ship that hits just as hard and is harder to hit and hits more targerts easyer.

I personly dont care about wormholes though. Wormholes and the new scaning changes have screwed alot of people over from day one. I mean realy scan a hole solar system in seconds in some cases 0km lock in 2mins or less thats just dumb. I could drop CCP in 24 squar miles of wheat fields with any gear they wish and they could not find me in 2 days let alone a hole solar system.

But I have felt is was ******edly fast from day one any ways.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows

Posted - 2011.07.16 03:34:00 - [27]
 

Supported, jesus christ if you dont want to support this then maybe you should pull your thumbs out of your arses and actually conisider balancing ships across the board. Woohoo sniper bonuses in a game where sniping is literally death, never mind the rest of the useless ships. love your game but ffs fix the blatant gaps.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2011.07.16 09:46:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Trinkets friend
Alot of hurf durf



Since it`s obviously you don't seem to grasp the real issue here, I'll do my best to give you a reply.

- We have no problem that probing exists, or that there is a risk involved.

- That we might be probable in a SS is of no concern to us. We have been probable before and it didn't give us much issues.

- Unprobable setups as a combatfit came to life basically because of the probing mechanic we have today. To be honest, I can come up with a bunch of other useful stuff to put on my ship then a bunch of ECCM mods.

- The main problem is that probing as it is now, makes sniping BS a non viable tactic. Fear of getting sniped? Simply deploy probes on gate, station, whatever and you will have the snipers spot before his warp animation is done.

That is not risk. That is bad game mechanic. You are welcome to come and test this, and I can assure you that we will have your ship tackled before you have aligned back out again, even in a cruiser.

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.07.16 23:00:00 - [29]
 

I constantly run into this annoying thing called 150km. It practically means engagement range is limited within somewhere approx. 75km range from target and that will pretty much count out everything long range but it isn't limited to that. It even means that if I have a relatively fast ship and I keep kiting enemy gang they might just warp to just one guy who is fast enough to keep up the pace with my fast ship and warp to their range again.

I am not feeling intelligent enough to say if it's totally bad or not but it surely gets annoying if you try to actually fly in space and then suddenly gangwarp.

Supporting the general idea for sake of keeping the discussion up.


 

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