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Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.10 01:21:00 - [1]
 

For the age of the game and with so many vet players with tons of SP. I think it would be a good idea to do double learning time, well that you pay for. For a set amount of ISK, say 100 mill ISK for 2 weeks of double learning speed. Vets won't really need it, new players wouldn't be able to afford it, mainly help the middle players, that only been playing for a few years.

Would help the middle class players to catch up alittle faster to the vets that been playing for many years. Especially in 0.0, more higher SP players their is, better grade of pvp that can be there. Or for rich pilots that want to start up another account, can train them faster as well. Also will eat up a lot of the extra ISK that is out there.

IMO, this will help a lot of players out to get a better gaming experience while taking probably tons of ISK out of the game every month.

TheFourteenthTry
Posted - 2011.07.10 01:31:00 - [2]
 

I posted a thread earlier on buy/sell trained skill books that would solve this issue as well. I also feel that a remap for ISK/PLEX could work.

I agree that there are vet/mid game/noob gap issues that IMO should be looked at and resolved. I might purchase something of that nature if it ended up being the solve CCP went with. Although there would need to be no set price for this but a market item like the PLEX to fall in line with other game change decisions.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2011.07.10 08:59:00 - [3]
 

You dont think that the Vets who have played and paid for longer than you deserve to have more SP????

Valei Khurelem
Posted - 2011.07.10 09:18:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Jint Hikaru
You dont think that the Vets who have played and paid for longer than you deserve to have more SP????


I do genuinely find it amazing how fast you guys are to attack people who post on this board that have ideas different from you.

Kurfin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:23:00 - [5]
 

Skill points aren't everything in eve. You can be very effective with relatively low sp, especially if you specialise. What high SP gives you more options, it isn't an 'I win button'.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Sarrgon
Especially in 0.0, more higher SP players their is, better grade of pvp that can be there.
Not really, no.

And older players will most certainly benefit more from this than new/mid-age ones, because older players will have the funds to do so and will have more incentives to get another alt up to snuff for some secondary task.

And finally, it is already trivially easy to catch up with older players (even though the idea of catching up doesn't really apply to EVE) — what you're suggesting actually makes it harder to do so.
Originally by: Valei Khurelem
I do genuinely find it amazing how fast you guys are to attack people who post on this board that have ideas different from you.
Good thing that no-one is doing that, then.

Red zeon
Caldari
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:31:00 - [7]
 

a good 10mil sp in frig can kill a 20mil sp in a bs,
a good 20mil sp in bs can kill a 10mil sp in a frig,
sp is not everything.
ive killed bs's in pirate and t2 frig.

like someone earlyer in this thread sayd. specialized 10mil is much better than 20mil spreadout.

phantomshura
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:16:00 - [8]
 

eve is made in a way that is very easy to catch up, around of 70-80% of the sp in a skill is in leveling from lv4 to 5 meaning that you can get most of the effectiveness of every skill in 20% of the time a vet used in it. the 20msp in carriers wont help a vet when he is using a bc meaning that he probably is using like 20m sp of his 200msp. newbs already get doble stats for training when they begin.

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:33:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Sarrgon on 10/07/2011 20:42:14
But how many 10 mill SP pilots can fly, caps, or super caps, or switch fast to a logi ship, then jump into a T2 fitted Maelstrom or Abaddon or a shield or armor hac, depending on what they fleet calls for. I know for me, i want to go back to 0.0 soon, but waiting for certain skills to be done first, sure is a lot of others in that boat to. And why so many alliances in low sec and null sec have SP req's for new pilots to join.

Something like this could help out a lot of people to get them where they want to get to faster, which means happier pilots and better game play as a whole.
And for them vets that have like 80+ mill SP even with double learning speed, would take years to catch up to them, so think their SP lead will still be safe till they kick out the hamsters that fuels Eve Very Happy

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:46:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Sarrgon
I know for me, i want to go back to 0.0 soon, but waiting for certain skills to be done first
Why wait? Just go.
Quote:
And for them vets that have like 80+ mill SP even with double learning speed, would take years to catch up to them
No, because (once again) catching up doesn't really apply to the shallow skill system in EVE and because that shallowness makes "catching up" is very easy. You can catch up to — or even surpass — an 80M+ vet in, oh, a week or two.

In fact, let's start over: what do you mean by "catch up", and how does this idea help you do that?

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:55:00 - [11]
 

To be able to fly the multitude of ships that so many of the vets do, have you even read all of what I posted? Or are you for the drake fleets?

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.11 20:43:00 - [12]
 

Also, so many other MMO's have practices in place to earn double XP or the like, CCP keeps taking Eve in directions that other popular MMO's are going, why not this one also?

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.11 20:48:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Feligast on 11/07/2011 20:52:51
Edited by: Feligast on 11/07/2011 20:51:14
Because, shockingly, Eve isn't other MMOs?

Alright, let's take your example. SHOULD a person playing this game, say, 2 months, be able to fly a supercap? Or jump fast into a logi or a T2 fitted Maelstrom? Should these not be long term goals to keep players hungry to keep playing?

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.11 20:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sarrgon
To be able to fly the multitude of ships that so many of the vets do, have you even read all of what I posted? Or are you for the drake fleets?


Flying multitude of ships is not exactly a great thing.


Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.11 21:50:00 - [15]
 

Even at double the learning speed, would take ALOT longer then 2 months before they could fly a cap of any kind, much less a supercap. And unless they are buying ISK or a ton of plexes, a 2 month old wouldn't be able to afford the double learning regardless. As I stated, this mainly benefits players who have been playing a few years but still way behind the long term vet players.

And in a 0.0 alliance, more ships you can fly the better. Weather it be a tackler, a dictor, armor or shield T2 cruiser, command ship, armor or shield BS and to have them all T2 fitted, then to get into caps and to be able to fly them well.

I know a lot that I have talked to that plays other MMO's, they like the idea of Eve but say they won't play it cause of the gap between vet players and new players. This will help attract newer players, keep more players from new to long term vet.

And if SP wasn't a issue, why are so many of the best alliances in the game, have a SP limit to get into a corp in that alliance. They want quality, not drake fleets.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.11 21:55:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sarrgon
Even at double the learning speed, would take ALOT longer then 2 months before they could fly a cap of any kind, much less a supercap. And unless they are buying ISK or a ton of plexes, a 2 month old wouldn't be able to afford the double learning regardless. As I stated, this mainly benefits players who have been playing a few years but still way behind the long term vet players.

And in a 0.0 alliance, more ships you can fly the better. Weather it be a tackler, a dictor, armor or shield T2 cruiser, command ship, armor or shield BS and to have them all T2 fitted, then to get into caps and to be able to fly them well.

I know a lot that I have talked to that plays other MMO's, they like the idea of Eve but say they won't play it cause of the gap between vet players and new players. This will help attract newer players, keep more players from new to long term vet.

And if SP wasn't a issue, why are so many of the best alliances in the game, have a SP limit to get into a corp in that alliance. They want quality, not drake fleets.


How much SP can you actually cram in a HAC? What is the maximum amount of SP that is applicable?

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.11 22:05:00 - [17]
 

Into 1 ship, well for most of them, not a lot for the ship itself, but also need all the support skills to be able to fly it well and is 4 kinda of T2 cruisers. And more are using T3's in 0.0 pvp also. And since a lot of alliances now use shield and armor hacs, is a lot of SP you need to be able to fly them well. Many Many months worth.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.11 22:14:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
Vets won't really need it, new players wouldn't be able to afford it, mainly help the middle players, that only been playing for a few years.


hogwash, this would become the next must have..like learning implants. Sorry but this is a non starter with me.


Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.11 23:20:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sarrgon
Into 1 ship, well for most of them, not a lot for the ship itself, but also need all the support skills to be able to fly it well and is 4 kinda of T2 cruisers. And more are using T3's in 0.0 pvp also. And since a lot of alliances now use shield and armor hacs, is a lot of SP you need to be able to fly them well. Many Many months worth.


Well you have skirted the question.

There is only a very limited amount of SP that can be stuffed in a HAC /T3 ship. Shield, armor, special snowflake fleet fits whatever. The point is that this supposed SP gap is false. A noob can catch up very quickly to a "Vet". The gap comes into play for the ones that actually learn how to play the game verses the ones that try to push for the faster better ships.


Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.11 23:23:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Sarrgon on 11/07/2011 23:28:09

If you want to specialize in 1 ship area, sub cap, yeah not take that long at all, but in how many alliances do you just fly 1 kinda of ship all the time?
And for how much SP there is in, say combat SP, even at double SP year round, would take years yet to complete it all. To max it all out that is. And on a funny note, like a lot of people when they first start out this game, me included, when I first got into a battleship, I was estatic, even though my support skills sucked for it and I lost it almost right away..lol

So even if someone does get to fly a ship that they not know how to use it, they will probably just lose it and have to go buy another, which would be good for the market..lol

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.11 23:33:00 - [21]
 

I have not seen "All these alliances" demand you to be omni racial. And max skilled at everything to even field a ship in fleet.

The strongest players are the ones that specialize. I fly quite few different ships here and there. And I regret not just specializing. Yeah it is great to be able to pick up something quick while in 0.0 and the market sucks. But to be able to really focus on a specific path, I think a new pilot will enjoy much better results, and will be right up there in the top ranks of the KB.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.11 23:44:00 - [22]
 

Most alliances have one maybe two fleet doctrines.

Not fifty. You'll be fine.

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.12 01:46:00 - [23]
 

Never said that any alliance has 50 different ways of putting a fleet together, but the better grade of alliances ask that you can fly armor or shield BS's and likewise with hacs and to be able to fly T2 ships, go to the recruitment thread and you'll see plenty of them like that, well for decent corps in good alliances. Still good to specialize, but still have options.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.12 01:58:00 - [24]
 

Then you're joining the wrong corps. In Goonwaffe we ask for several ships all a part of the same doctrine. You can fly one or all, your choice.

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.12 21:27:00 - [25]
 

I think you kinda answered you own question / point there, Goons and Test are known for taking about anyone. Is a lot of 0.0 alliances like that, they are a dime a dozen. If you want to get into a good alliance, need more then just to be able to fly a drake. Not trying to be harmful there, Goons and Test give a lot of pilots their first taste in 0.0 life and 0.0 pvp. But also why a lot move on after awhile.

You look at the best alliances (pvp wise) and think you'll find that they all have a SP limit and require you to be able to fly certain kinds of ships first before you can join them.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:48:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Sarrgon


You look at the best alliances (pvp wise) and think you'll find that they all have a SP limit and require you to be able to fly certain kinds of ships first before you can join them.


Hahaha, like who?

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:46:00 - [27]
 

PL, I know INIT did before, not sure on know, Various corps in Nulli Secunda, Razor, well before, who knows on now. A lot of corps / alliances do once they hit a certain size to be more selective recruiting. Get better grade of pilots, which makes sense to.

I keep on hearing NOOO, this isn't a good idea, but no real reason why, or is it just bitter vets wanting to keep their SP advantage over everyone else? Laughing

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Sarrgon
I keep on hearing NOOO, this isn't a good idea, but no real reason why, or is it just bitter vets wanting to keep their SP advantage over everyone else? Laughing
The main reason is because it reinforces already incorrect perceptions about how the game's skill system works.

The whole idea is born out of notions that skills and SP in EVE work kind of like levels and XP in other games; that it will have the same age disparity problems that those games have; and that the same solutions will work and will be needed. None of that is true, though, and chances are that trying to adopt solutions for a completely different progression system will only serve to screw things up and actually introduce the class of problems that those other games have, rather than to solve them.

You used the phrase “To be able to fly the multitude of ships that so many of the vets do” to define ‘catching up’, and yet, if you can fly a multitude of ships, you haven't caught up in the slightest — after all, you can't build any of those ships, can you? Closing in on four years, Tippia is a semi-vet, and yet it takes almost exactly one week to, not just catch up, but surpass her and fly something she can't.

EVE already has a number of quirks that make sure that “catching up” is at the same time completely impossible and yet very very easy. There is the diminishing returns where you have to spend 5× the time to get 1.25× better. There is the very low hard cap on skill levels — at lvl V, you have caught up with everyone, ever, in a particular skill. There is the breadth of interconnected skills, which mean that there are multiple ways of getting the same kind of bonus. There is the paper-scissors-rock balancing that means that, no matter what you have, you are at a disadvantage — the same design also means that bigger is not better, so there's no inherent reason to go bigger. And finally, there's just the breadth of things to do, which means that there will always be some niche where you can surpass an older player.

Yes, an older player is likely to have more variety to call on (but only likely — again, the breadth of choices means that this is far from certain), but so what? Why is that a problem? Why does it need to be “solved”?


 

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