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blankseplocked Flawless Simple Bounty System
 
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Lowdar
Posted - 2011.07.10 00:33:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Lowdar on 10/07/2011 14:12:29
Bounty Fee - The amount paid to put a bounty on someones head. Also this is the amount that the bounty hunted loses for being podded.

Bounty Reward - The amount shown to other players and what they will receive for podding the player with a bounty.

The Bounty Reward is always 75% of the Bounty Fee.

Bounty Placement Rules: You can only place a bounty in a station and there is a 1 hour delay before that bounty is put into effect.

For example:
I want to place a 75 million ISK bounty on player EbilPiwat. It will cost me 100 million. Player BountyHunter kills EbilPiwat. EbilPiwat is charged 100 million. BountyHunter gets 75 million.

Max Bounties - The max Bounty Reward a player can have is 4x there total skill points. (this translates into 5.333x their SP for max Bounty Fee).

For example:
A 10 million SP player will have a max Bounty Fee of 53.3 million.
a 50 million SP player will have a max Bounty Fee of 266.6 million.
A 100 million SP player can have a max Bounty Fee of 533.3 million ISK.

Looking for flaws, please let me know.

EDIT: I lowered the max bounty to 4x total SP from 10x, as I believe it would have been to harsh a penalty at 10x.

AMatay
Posted - 2011.07.10 00:40:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: AMatay on 10/07/2011 00:40:52

TheExtruder
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.07.10 01:59:00 - [3]
 

the bounty system will need a complete renovation, an innovative new system which will surpass our expectations! deep down we all want to play being han solo, so its an important update, i expect something more uber

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.07.10 03:37:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: TheExtruder
the bounty system will need a complete renovation, an innovative new system which will surpass our expectations! deep down we all want to play being han solo, so its an important update, i expect something more uber


Han solo is a smuggler, not a bounty hunter. Boba Fett is the ebil bounty hunter trying to capture him.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.07.10 04:11:00 - [5]
 

This is the best idea I've seen for fixing the bounty system. It looks workable and I can't think of any obvious ways to exploit it. Supported.

Mintoko
Gallente
Taedium In Perpetuam
Posted - 2011.07.10 07:28:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Mintoko on 10/07/2011 07:30:14
Originally by: Lowdar
Bounty Fee - The amount paid to put a bounty on someones head. Also this is the amount that the bounty hunted loses for being podded.

Bounty Reward - The amount shown to other players and what they will receive for podding the player with a bounty.

The Bounty Reward is always 75% of the Bounty Fee.

Bounty Placement Rules: You can only place a bounty in a station and there is a 1 hour delay before that bounty is put into effect.

For example:
I want to place a 75 million ISK bounty on player EbilPiwat. It will cost me 100 million. Player BountyHunter kills EbilPiwat. EbilPiwat is charged 100 million. BountyHunter gets 75 million.

For Grief Protection - The max Bounty Reward a player can have is 10x there total skill points. (this translates into 13.333x their SP for max Bounty Fee).

For example:
A 1 million SP player will have a max Bounty Reward of 10 million. A 100 million SP player can have a max bounty of 1 billion ISK.

Looking for flaws, please let me know.




What you describe is not a bounty, but a contract killing with the person being killed forced into paying for it.

Grief protection....
how will you know how many skillpoints a person has? That's normally confidential information.
If the person has 30m skillpoints, the max he could be charged is 400m... possibly more than he has.

This would be a system for forcing players to remain docked until the bounty expires, if ever.


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.10 08:15:00 - [7]
 

Taking the exploit avoidance a little far don't you think?

Why does a pirate have to pay for the privilege of having to buy a new clone?
Or put in another way, why should a person be able to essentially drain a targets wallet?
Why is the total cost so much higher than the actual 'product' (125M lost (pirates + fee/reward diff.) and 75M changing hands)?
Where is the bounty hunting profession in all this?

In short: Seems to me like a super-draconian, anti-exploit infused and anti-pirate rehash of current system with very little else.

Lupus Hekki
Caldari
Legio Carminatus
Posted - 2011.07.10 08:29:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Lupus Hekki on 10/07/2011 08:30:37
Originally by: Mintoko
This would be a system for forcing players to remain docked until the bounty expires, if ever.

I agree, if i would get the same amount of ISK a PLEX would give me, i'd pull out every resource i have to find her/him, even if it would kill me multiple times. Plus you most probably wouldn't be the only one hunting these people.

That actually sounds greedy if you think about it.

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
In short: Seems to me like a super-draconian, anti-exploit infused and anti-pirate rehash of current system with very little else.

And we all love pirates (not trolling some people do)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.10 10:25:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 10/07/2011 10:27:34

…and what happens if the target has 25 ISK in their wallet?

Also, what is this supposed to solve?

Kurfin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:03:00 - [10]
 

If nothing else it looks like one hell of an isk sink.

TBH charging the target for the privilege of being killed is way to harsh, and this is coming from a rampaging carebear.

I'm going to float the idea of capping the bounty paid out to say 80% of the mineral value of the assets destroyed, ship, modules, ammo, implants, the lot, and leaving the remaining bounty balance against the target. This would discourage people podding themselves with an alt, whist not kicking the pirates in the balls simply for being pirates.

Lord Lojak
Three Sails
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:07:00 - [11]
 

so if i put a bounty on you and you die (i have over 70 mil SP btw)and some1 kills you, YOU pay the cost of the bounty at no cost to me? wow u will be ****ed if this get implmented. rethink it dude

Darth Helmat
Posted - 2011.07.10 12:03:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Darth Helmat on 10/07/2011 12:16:51
Edited by: Darth Helmat on 10/07/2011 12:03:21
Originally by: Lowdar

For example:
I want to place a 75 million ISK bounty on player EbilPiwat. It will cost me 100 million. Player BountyHunter kills EbilPiwat. EbilPiwat is charged 100 million. BountyHunter gets 75 million.



So er massive isk sink then, 200m spent, 75m recovered. If EbilPiwat has any sense, he'll alt-pod himself ensuring minimisation of hull/implant costs and gets the reward, in which case you spent 100m, and EbilPiwat lost 25m.


Lowdar
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:13:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Mintoko

What you describe is not a bounty, but a contract killing with the person being killed forced into paying for it.

Grief protection....
how will you know how many skillpoints a person has? That's normally confidential information.


You would not explicitly know how much a SP a player has, but if you tried to put a large bounty on him then the system would tell you cant because it is more then his max.
Originally by: Mintoko

If the person has 30m skillpoints, the max he could be charged is 400m... possibly more than he has.


they go negative Twisted Evil

Well if you're broke then you better not **** someone off so much that they are willing to spend 400 mil for bounty on you.

but even so, think about the players already existing ability to cause the same damage.
for example:
I have 30 mil SP, and i have 500 million ISK I spend it all on a t3 ship. Someone blows me up, I have no ISK and no other assets. I'm f***ed.
Originally by: Lupus Hekki

I agree, if i would get the same amount of ISK a PLEX would give me, i'd pull out every resource i have to find her/him, even if it would kill me multiple times. Plus you most probably wouldn't be the only one hunting these people.

That actually sounds greedy if you think about it.


All games are about making the right decisions to win. This game is a just a little harsher then others when you make the wrong choice.

also the bounty fee max can be changed to a softer number if people think it is to harsh.
for example:
at 5x the max bounty fee on a 30mil SP player is 200 mil, or even softer at 2x max bounty fee is 60 mil.

Originally by: Mintoko

This would be a system for forcing players to remain docked until the bounty expires, if ever.


I think that the bounty expiring may have some merit, if you really get ****ed and have no money, but this would complicate things.

I propose having a bounty stasis option. Works like jail. You have a large bounty on you head that you don't want to deal with then you must remained docked for a certain amount of time. Also if bounties are placed on you during the stasis time, then there application is qued till after the stasis is over or you brake it by undocking to early.

I propose that the bounty stasis time is equal to 0.00024% of your
total SP in hours. this means every 10 mil you have is 1 extra day of stasis time.

for example:
30 mil times .0000024 = 72 hours or 3 days
Originally by: Tippia

Also, what is this supposed to solve?


This system solves the problem of those that want to cuase damage to other players, but dont have the required skills to do so but maybe the ISK.
Originally by: Kurfin

If nothing else it looks like one hell of an isk sink.


Isk sinks are good, there is already way to much isk floating around in this game.
Plus i dont think it will be that large of an isk sink, becuase people aren't going to set large bounties unless they are real PO'ed.
Originally by: Lord Lojak

didnt read the OP...


I think you should reread the OP.
Originally by: Darth Helmat

If EbilPiwat has any sense, he'll alt-pod himself ensuring minimisation of hull/implant costs and gets the reward, in which case you spent 100m, and EbilPiwat lost 25m.


Yes this is pretty much the basis of the system. If you dont want to play bounty hunters then you can just pay a fee and you dont have to play anymore. It still gives someone the ability to do damage to you without needing the skills.

Novon Toll
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:57:00 - [14]
 

I support Lowdar's concept, bumping it up.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.10 14:14:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 10/07/2011 14:16:02
Originally by: Lowdar
they go negative Twisted Evil

People are already rather miffed about a person being able to go negative due to using margin trading scam and what not, Eve does not need a "pvp" on that level.
There is a huge difference between flying above ones wallet and essentially being robbed by fairies by some rich prick for the 'lulz'.
Originally by: Lowdar
I propose having a bounty stasis option.

I wouldn't trust 99.9% of the people around here with folding my socks, I sure as hell won't trust them to manage what amounts to a temporary ban system.
Originally by: Lowdar
This system solves the problem of those that want to cuase damage to other players, but dont have the required skills to do so but maybe the ISK.

Errm, why not do 'regular' contract killings then. Set up contract for XX ISK, payable when YY ISK damage has been done to target (ie. pretty much how high-sec merc system works)? Solves your imaginary problem a lot better.

Edit: Wowsers, "prick" isn't censored .. most peculiar.

Lowdar
Posted - 2011.07.10 14:50:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Eve does not need a "pvp" on that level.


so your saying that eve players can't understand the mathematical concept of negative numbers? i might agree.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

being robbed by fairies


well usually when someone places a bounty on someone else that means they want them dead. In EVE, you can not really die, so that ruins traditional "bounty hunting" but to make due, one can suffer damages instead if they have a bounty, hence ISK is lost.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

I wouldn't trust 99.9% of the people around here with folding my socks, I sure as hell won't trust them to manage what amounts to a temporary ban system.


yeah I don't agree with a temp ban system either, it was a proposal to someone else saying the system was to harsh.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Errm, why not do 'regular' contract killings then. Set up contract for XX ISK, payable when YY ISK damage has been done to target (ie. pretty much how high-sec merc system works)? Solves your imaginary problem a lot better.


This is another good system, the problem though is what if the alt accepts the contract. He can just choose not to kill his main? or kill his main and collect the bounty if its more then the damages?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.10 15:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Lowdar
well usually when someone places a bounty on someone else that means they want them dead. In EVE, you can not really die, so that ruins traditional "bounty hunting" but to make due, one can suffer damages instead if they have a bounty, hence ISK is lost.

You must not be very "old" in Eve if you think a clone loss is something one just shrugs off. My base clones cost as much as a rigged, T2 fitted cruiser (20M) .. now add a few 100M in implants that are almost mandatory in competitive PvP today.
Originally by: Lowdar
This is another good system, the problem though is what if the alt accepts the contract. He can just choose not to kill his main? or kill his main and collect the bounty if its more then the damages?

As with most other tit-for-tat contracts you'd have collateral, so yes he could acquire and let it expire but victim would at least get something out of it.
So you make a rule saying that bounty can not exceed damage requirement, problem solved.

The biggest issue with a "damage done" mechanic is measuring said damage. Killboards are not always up to date and some modules can fluctuate quite a lot due to speculation/supply.
Can be sorted by API verification if CCP adds median prices for items but don't know what kind of power that will suck from server, but a DT tally and automated KB update should suffice for the purpose I think.

Lowdar
Posted - 2011.07.10 15:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

You must not be very "old" in Eve if you think a clone loss is something one just shrugs off. My base clones cost as much as a rigged, T2 fitted cruiser (20M) .. now add a few 100M in implants that are almost mandatory in competitive PvP today.


no one said you had to upgrade your clone and buy implants, that goes under the don't fly what you cant afford argument.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

As with most other tit-for-tat contracts you'd have collateral, so yes he could acquire and let it expire but victim would at least get something out of it.
So you make a rule saying that bounty can not exceed damage requirement, problem solved.


Then this is even more similar to my proposed system. I still think a contract bounty system would hinder bounty hunting, because it limits the amount of bounty hunters that can chase a target and they have to risk more because of collateral.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.10 16:06:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lowdar
no one said you had to upgrade your clone and buy implants, that goes under the don't fly what you cant afford argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should be able to pay virtual money to prevent you from being able to play the game like you want?
Non-upgraded clone = SP loss.
No implants = not competitive, why bother.

I do not know a single PvP'er (pirates are generally considered PvP'ers) who undocks in blank clones except when planning a self destruct pod-jump.
In the ECM/Alt heavy environment of today every % counts, and letting people sit on their arse and prevent you from fighting on even terms is neither here nor there.

You have now convinced me that this whole thing is an elaborate troll and I shall discontinue my comments.

Lowdar
Posted - 2011.07.10 16:10:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Lowdar
no one said you had to upgrade your clone and buy implants, that goes under the don't fly what you cant afford argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should be able to pay virtual money to prevent you from being able to play the game like you want?


no i said your response was off topic, lol rage more please.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:02:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lowdar
they go negative Twisted Evil
So you want to implement the ultimate griefing tool? Have you considered how completely crippled a character becomes if they go into negative wallet?

No. That idea alone completely disqualifies this idea.
Quote:
I have 30 mil SP, and i have 500 million ISK I spend it all on a t3 ship. Someone blows me up, I have no ISK and no other assets. I'm f***ed.
No. You can begin again and start building up new wealth by a bit of grinding and some trading. A negative wallet means you cannot do this.

So really, the question has to be asked again: what is it you are trying to solve here?

Mintoko
Gallente
Taedium In Perpetuam
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lowdar
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Lowdar
no one said you had to upgrade your clone and buy implants, that goes under the don't fly what you cant afford argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should be able to pay virtual money to prevent you from being able to play the game like you want?


no i said your response was off topic, lol rage more please.


How was he off-topic? One is not required to upgrade his clone? Well...true.

The problem is a 100m SP player getting f***ed under your system, no money left to upgrade his clone, who then gets dry-reamed by another contract, losing all of his skillpoints.


Red zeon
Caldari
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:09:00 - [23]
 

Stopped reading in the middle.
but would you have 30mil sp, then it would be 120m max bounty since thread maker sayd its like 4x sp.
id say more like if you got 1mil in bank, you only get charged for what you have, otherwise someone could ruin some 10min old char and put like 3mil bounty on him. hed be in rookie ship trying to get 3mil :P
or you could only put bounty if you have kill right, and after that, you loose the kill right..
thats more fair.

Mintoko
Gallente
Taedium In Perpetuam
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:15:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Mintoko on 10/07/2011 19:18:09
Originally by: Red zeon
Stopped reading in the middle.
but would you have 30mil sp, then it would be 120m max bounty since thread maker sayd its like 4x sp.


He's edited the figures. Originally, the payout to the bounty hunter would have been 10x your skillpoints, with the total you'd lose to be 13.333x your skillpoints.


Originally by: Red zeon
...or you could only put bounty if you have kill right, and after that, you loose the kill right..
thats more fair.


It's been suggested before that one could be allowed to 'sell' a killright. Personally, I would agree with that.

Alaekessa
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:34:00 - [25]
 

/signed

As far as the "going negative" in the wallet is concerned, they've already "gone negative" as far as Sec Status is concerned so what's the problem? I mean, you can't have a bounty placed on you without having a negative Sec Status to begin with so I'd agree with this. There are few penalties (that I know of) to having a negative Sec Status which are all laughable. So I find that this is an acceptable course of action. If you look at criminals in real life, when they get fines and civil penalties placed against them, they can get their assets seized and sold, as well as their wages garnished. This would be the perfect way to replicate this.

A thought I just had is why not make it more like the contract system? Rather than all of the bounties on someone all massing into one huge bounty, each bounty would be like a [Want to Buy] Contract where the item in question is the outlaws frozen corpse. Want to collect on the bounty, search their frozen corpse in [Want To Buy] Contracts and then take it where the best Contract is held.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:41:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 10/07/2011 19:48:11
Originally by: Alaekessa
As far as the "going negative" in the wallet is concerned, they've already "gone negative" as far as Sec Status is concerned so what's the problem?
The problem is that you can't do anything in the game at that point. It is effectively a ban without the game rejecting your login — the griefing potential is enormous.

There's a reason why the game itself does not let this happen and why it is basically reserved as a GM-enforced punishment for ISK buyers… It is not suitable as a player-controlled sanction against entirely legal behaviour.

Mintoko
Gallente
Taedium In Perpetuam
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:41:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Alaekessa
/signed

As far as the "going negative" in the wallet is concerned, they've already "gone negative" as far as Sec Status is concerned so what's the problem? I mean, you can't have a bounty placed on you without having a negative Sec Status to begin with so I'd agree with this. There are few penalties (that I know of) to having a negative Sec Status which are all laughable. So I find that this is an acceptable course of action. If you look at criminals in real life, when they get fines and civil penalties placed against them, they can get their assets seized and sold, as well as their wages garnished. This would be the perfect way to replicate this.

A thought I just had is why not make it more like the contract system? Rather than all of the bounties on someone all massing into one huge bounty, each bounty would be like a [Want to Buy] Contract where the item in question is the outlaws frozen corpse. Want to collect on the bounty, search their frozen corpse in [Want To Buy] Contracts and then take it where the best Contract is held.


The problem is that the OP made no distinction between someone with a negative status and a Concord brown-noser. With his idea, someone with a 5.0 security status could have a bounty placed on his head and be griefed into the poorhouse.

Alaekessa
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:50:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Alaekessa on 10/07/2011 19:51:07
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 10/07/2011 19:43:46
Originally by: Alaekessa
As far as the "going negative" in the wallet is concerned, they've already "gone negative" as far as Sec Status is concerned so what's the problem?
The problem is that you can't do anything in the game at that point. It is effectively a ban without the game rejecting your login — the griefing potential is enormous.

There's a reason why the game itself does not let this happen and why it is basically reserved as a GM-enforced punishment for ISK buyers…


Not necessarily, they could become indentured to an NPC faction, maybe the Guristas are willing to take on your debt, but now you're running boosters for them, which could be handled as missions with low pay-rates handed out occasionally since they don't necessarily want to let their new toy loose immediately or a % of any income brought in is garnished

Originally by: Mintoko
The problem is that the OP made no distinction between someone with a negative status and a Concord brown-noser. With his idea, someone with a 5.0 security status could have a bounty placed on his head and be griefed into the poorhouse.


I was under the assumption that it would be applied in the same way that bounties are currently, i.e. only on those with neg sec status.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:05:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Alaekessa
Not necessarily,
Yes, very necessarily, unless you want to completely rework the core mechanics of the game (most notably the market).
Quote:
they could become indentured to an NPC faction, maybe the Guristas are willing to take on your debt,
Now you're talking about adding completely new things just to fix a huge griefing hole in a poorly thought-out solution to a problem that hasn't been all that well explained…

If you need to add this kind of complex solution just to patch a hole in the original idea, it's better to rework the original idea itself.

And again: negative wallets don't exist in this game because it means you're utterly crippled. It is not something that should be in the hands of players.

Alaekessa
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:17:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Now you're talking about adding completely new things....


So you're telling me that you're unfamiliar with the corp tax mechanic?

Originally by: Tippia
again: negative wallets don't exist in this game because it means you're utterly crippled. It is not something that should be in the hands of players.


But Wardecs which are often used to grief small PVE corps should be? Also, I've provided a workaround using existing mechanics to prevent the crippling of players.

There should be a real, tangible consequence for choosing the life of a neg sec status capsuleer, you want to be a criminal, deal with it. I am not saying that everyone should have to deal with it, just those who want to play at being "space pirates"


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