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Atalia AIkawa
Posted - 2011.07.03 22:25:00 - [1]
 

I've heard selling minerals on instant sell is a bad idea.

I was wondering if there are any tips on getting into the mineral market. What's okay to sell instantly and what can sell higher.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.07.03 23:09:00 - [2]
 

There will almost always be super low buy orders out so a smart trader will ALWAYS check what the real prices are and make sell order if no decent buy order is set.
Prices vary on demand, there is no golden rule. Use jita prices as absolute minimal prices when selling.

http://eve-central.com/ is your friend.

Atalia AIkawa
Posted - 2011.07.03 23:33:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre
There will almost always be super low buy orders out so a smart trader will ALWAYS check what the real prices are and make sell order if no decent buy order is set.
Prices vary on demand, there is no golden rule. Use jita prices as absolute minimal prices when selling.

http://eve-central.com/ is your friend.


Hmmm I've done that. I guess I've been thinking it right.

So since Tritanium is so abundant, there's probably no reason to put effort to getting the best price possible since a few systems away could be selling it cheaper. Gonna be rich!

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.04 07:42:00 - [4]
 

EVE's market visibility is per region, so you might be able to sell or buy something one jump away but not know about it if that's in a different region (Jita comes to mind, it's a region border system). Also, if you skills are low, you're better off selling the ore than refining it yourself into minerals (due to refine waste).

Other than that, there's nothing really set in stone when it comes to using the market, apart from "never sell or buy outright, unless you're in a hurry". If you look at the market for any given product and compare the buy and sell orders you'll see a difference there, the buy orders will always be lower than the sell orders. Sometimes just a few %, sometimes it's 30% or more.

You have to realise that those orders are created by traders, not necessarily 'normal' players. Traders tend to be smart about it while normal players just "do whatever", so never sell to a buy order as that means selling to a trader who expects to resell your stuff at a higher price. Instead put up your own sell order so you'll sell at a price YOU benefit from.

Getting started with trading by moving into the mineral market is possibly a bad idea, to make that work you need quite a lot of volume and expertise and most of the time you get the best results by hauling it around, which requires freighter loads. All in all a big investment and a potential disaster due to lack of experience. You're way better off starting to trade with named ship modules, stuff like that. Easier to keep on top of, less risk and generally also quite profitable once you found something that works for you.

Fearless Worthless
Posted - 2011.07.04 09:06:00 - [5]
 

no one suggested selling to their corp?

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.04 10:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Fearless Worthless
no one suggested selling to their corp?


Most corps that invite miners and then set up schemes to sell to corp are scams. Sometimes set up for that exact purpose, sometimes they just turn out that way. In the end you almost always get less for your stuff than would you do it yourself, so they're preying on the clueless and low-effort folks (which in and of itself is not wrong at all).

Generally you'll want to avoid being in corps like that.

Mahkal
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.04 14:13:00 - [7]
 

Nothing wrong with instant selling, provided the price is decent.

Setting up your own buy and sell orders or hauling to a trade hub may or may not get you more money, but does take time, and you could spend that time mining.

Whatever you enjoy, and whatever makes the most isk.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.04 14:44:00 - [8]
 

Remember all "instant" selling it to another player, so s/he's unlikely to pay you top dollar. Look at the market, see where the best price is, be mindful of region boundaries, use evemaps.dotlan.net if it's worth your trouble, move to better market, otherwise let it go where you are. Honestly, if you're mining, then you're already spending a great deal of time, spend a little more and get top dollar.


Fearless Worthless
Posted - 2011.07.04 20:50:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: K'iran
Originally by: Fearless Worthless
no one suggested selling to their corp?


Most corps that invite miners and then set up schemes to sell to corp are scams... you almost always get less for your stuff ... so they're preying on the clueless and low-effort folks.


This was a rhetorical question and that's exactly the kind of response I wanted. Basically what I'm trying to do here is to figure out if there's a way to make mining profitable both for a corporation and also for the miners.

I feel like perfect refining and orca support is a way of doing this (provided that you can still afford to pay the orca and haulers, etc etc).

I just don't know enough about mining to know how to set up something that would be better for everyone than if they were doing it themselves... Is there a way to do this?

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.04 21:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Fearless Worthless
I just don't know enough about mining to know how to set up something that would be better for everyone than if they were doing it themselves... Is there a way to do this?


I'm probably not the person to ask, been playing since 2005 but never mined (or did much other carebeary stuff). Thing is that your question is a difficult one, you're essentially asking yourself and your possible recruits "are you willing to invest effort and some raw profit in order to build something as a group".

If you look at it from a cash point of view you'd be daft to do that as there's enough non-effort folks around to be milked, make a cool sounding corp in a logical area, create some blahblah forum and corp info and start advertising. Once you get going you simply ream 5-15% off the top while juggling with numbers till they look completely glazed and you're set. This happens more than you think and in larger setups than you might realise, same thing for mission running corps but there's it's a bit more difficult.

So, if you forego on that profit to "invest" in a group, idea or whatever you need to find people who think long term and want to do the same thing. Per usual the problem is finding the right people, once you have that then you can just come up with something that's beneficial for everyone.

If I'd set up something proper I'd probably start out different, set a goal first. Like "we want to work towards building caps" or "inhabiting and colonising a certain area in EVE", stuff like that. Once you have a goal then you can get people who are sympathetic to that and the rest follows automatically.

Atalia AIkawa
Posted - 2011.07.05 00:12:00 - [11]
 

I'm at zero refine waste and getting close to tax free. No worries about that.

The minerals I will be most abundant are just the cheap ones. Tritanium and what not. I won't be too worried about prices until Isogen or higher.

I mean if the instant sell order for one system is higher than buy order of most regions, probably safe to just instant sell. No point in trying to compete because everywhere else is selling it for less. That's how I understand it.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Atalia AIkawa
I'm at zero refine waste and getting close to tax free. No worries about that.

The minerals I will be most abundant are just the cheap ones. Tritanium and what not. I won't be too worried about prices until Isogen or higher.

I mean if the instant sell order for one system is higher than buy order of most regions, probably safe to just instant sell. No point in trying to compete because everywhere else is selling it for less. That's how I understand it.



Uh ... the "instant sell" orders ARE Buy Orders.

When you look at the market screen, there are Sell Orders on the top and Buy Orders on the bottom.

When you right click on something and select Sell - then just take the price that pops up - that price comes from one of those Buy Orders. You will automatically get the best price for the Buy Orders available to you. Since some Buy Orders are placed from other systems - it' possible to have a better Buy Order in the system next door (which you can't access) than some that are available from a number of jumps away - simply because the one guy didn't specify as large a range for his order as the other guy. What that range is about - is - do you have to haul to where he placed the buy order or will he come get it from where you're at.



The difference between the Buy and Sell orders - is time. Time is money. So - in some circumstances it is BETTER to sell to someone's Buy Order so that you get a quick turn around on your funds - than it is to Post a Sell Order and have your capital tied up in it until it sells.

All of that depends on the situation of the moment at that location. There is no hard and fast rule as to which is better.

What you want to do - is understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.


One way to rapidly build up your capital - is to use it to buy things and then sell them elsewhere - then - come back with the greater amount of capital you now have and do it over again - except for the now greater volume you can afford to buy. Here is an example of rapid turn over. You use your capital to make more capital and then use that to make more still - all within a few minutes or hours. The same amount placed in a Sell Order could sit for days or months - all depending on the volume being generated for that item. Here - looking at that Market History page can give you an idea of how rapid a turn over you might get. Of course - experience in a certain market will get you the same thing.


Mostly - you just really have to pay attention to what's going on - as it changes all the time. It can in fact change in seconds.

For example - you don't have to just sell your own minerals. You can buy other peoples minerals and then sell them too - BUT - if you see a really good price differential - you've got to act on it immediately - AND - have a back up plan for what you're going to do with all that stuff you just bought if someone else snatches up that good opportunity before you do.



The big thing to understand about being an Industrialist - is that Trading is more important when it comes to making money. Traders don't need to build or mine anything - but Industrialists do need to Trade. Most people are Industrialists because building things is more fun than clicking an abacus but you need to understand that this is costing you money. If you understand that - then that's fine - as this is a game and having fun is what it's all about. Just understand that this is what's going on. Not that you can't do both.

For me - I make most of my money trading - but I hate doing it. I like mining. I don't like running missions. But - I need to trade to get ISK to buy better stuff and I need to run missions to increase my standings with the stations I use - so I do what I have to do - then get back to the fun part I enjoy. I just try to be aware of the consequences of my actions - so that if I'm giving something up - I know it - and know why I am doing it.


.


Fearless Worthless
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:40:00 - [13]
 

"If I'd set up something proper I'd probably start out different, set a goal first. Like "we want to work towards building caps" or "inhabiting and colonising a certain area in EVE", stuff like that. Once you have a goal then you can get people who are sympathetic to that and the rest follows automatically."

So essentially you'd be telling them that the vig would be going to projects that would be mutually beneficial. It would in essence be a tax that's earmarked for something.

But there's still no short-term profitable solution for all parties?

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.06 21:20:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 06/07/2011 21:21:34
Originally by: K'iran


Most corps that invite miners and then set up schemes to sell to corp are scams. Sometimes set up for that exact purpose, sometimes they just turn out that way. In the end you almost always get less for your stuff than would you do it yourself, so they're preying on the clueless and low-effort folks (which in and of itself is not wrong at all).

Generally you'll want to avoid being in corps like that.


In the few corps that I did this with when I was a younger pilot, I would usually get the average regional pirce, which is not always a rip off with minerals. Yes this could be viewed as a bad deal since the average regional price includes people selling to highest regional buy orders, but I did the math and found out that it was a reasonable cut as I did not have the skills or standings to get max refine rates, and did not have to do any hauling. So yes many corps out there will try to scam new miners by doing what you said, but if the new players do the math then they can haggle a price before hand or, after one or two trust based trades, can be fairly sure if they are getting ripped off. Live and learn. Do not just avoid things because someone said it is a bad idea as most ideas in EVE are bad Laughing People often times learn more from their own mistakes then they do from heeding others advice.


Slade

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:26:00 - [15]
 

Sometimes its a bad idea, sometimes its a good idea.


When its a bad idea:
When you ONLY mine, no trade, no missions, what you want to do is collect 150M+ ISK in minerals are standard market prices, Refine them and then sell them off in the Legit_trade or the Minerals and manufacture chat rooms, When advertising, be clear about what you want, where they are and exactly how much you have.


When its a good idea:
When you are a merchant, and need instant money to invest in trade orders, region orders etc, you WILL lose more then 15% mineral value by doing exactly this, but most people do and its not a bad idea (most of the time)
Learn standard refined mineral prices by heart, and know when to sell unrefined, when to refine or when to simply HOLD the minerals and move to a better area with better buy order prices.

The mineral market is HUGE, if your not doing good where you are, move onto another REGION.
DO NOT, issue region buy orders unless you have 4 billion ISK or more to invest., regardless weather you have a real freighter or not, just Dont do it, because your gonna end up wasting 2 days jumping 200 stations a day trying to pick up little bits of minerals here and there to gather into your main base, 4.5 ISK billion is the golden number.

What I DO suggest for some one with 20-400 million ISK on hand, is to issue Station, Solar system and 1 jump buy orders for minerals, you wont make ALLOT but you will not have your ISK sitting around gathering dust and the mistakes you make will be on a small scale.

Good luck fellow merchant, your welcome to befriend me in-game.

Elynea Vildorian
Posted - 2011.07.09 21:58:00 - [16]
 

Also don't forget that more expensive minerals normally have two major issues:

They come in smaller quantities
The market for it might be smaller, especially if we are talking about high end minerals.

As for corporations, their biggest benefit is likely that they can help you mine more (fleet setups, booster mining etc), mine higher minerals at all (protection, experience) along with several other very important benefits, like the fun playing in a group, get some more experienced members to ask questions, get some help with fittings etc.

It really depends on the corp and your own playstyle.

Same for instant sells as well as with selling to your corp. It might not get you the same prices as you could possibly get waiting for a good offer, the advantage is, that its normally easier to get "rid of" the minerals fast and secure. If its a normal not scamming corp you might get a lower price but you don't have to worry about who to sell it to, how to handle the trading and all of that .. and you might even help your corp which in the long run might possibly give you another benefit (better or more fleet support for more mining)

If you just want to make ISK with mining, I'd suggest you give it a short check when you sell higher volumes of minerals to see if the prices you sell it for are not a ripp off. Other than that it's up to you. Whats the value of convenience to you? 5%, 10% 30%? Ask yourself that question, once you have an answer to it you can use that and only need to check average prices from that point on and only sell for prices that are within your limit.

If you really want to be a trader, then often every ISK counts. Especially with minerals we are not talking about extremely high prices, we are talking about relatively low prices and huge volumes of material. With trading another point gets importance. Not just how much isk do you get per unit, but also how many will they trade you? Will you fly 10 jumps for 1 more ISK/unit if you want to sell 10 units? Now ask yourself the same question with 1 million units.
Will you take your time flying to another region, or advertise in trade channels for a better prices? It all depends on how much time you do want to invest into trading and if the smallest price differences makaes it worthwhile. But in the end it all comes down to 3 big things.

Price, Quantity and Time Effort

You want to maximize the price you get, to get the greatest profits
You want to be able to trade in huge amounts of quantity, so you never run out of materials you can buy and never run out of buyers
You want to spend the least amount of time to achieve above 2


 

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