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Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.03 20:45:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Serious Spaceship Girl
Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose
Thanks for fooling the masses Soundwave, it has been a collaboration of genius.
I wish I could fool this many people so easily.


What would you do?

Fool us into getting mohawks?

Laughing


No I would fool you into thinking I said something different when all I said was the exact same thing again, almost verbatim, but with some platitudes thrown in for free. Platitiudes are free still right? Yes, they are.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.03 20:58:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Mintala Arana
AkJon, it seems pretty clear after even a relatively casual reading of the full Fearless (not the originally posted document, which now looks like it was cut down to make things look worse than they really were) that Kris was asked to write a position piece, one which he might not personally agree with. This is commonly known as "playing the Devil's Advocate". I don't think we can necessarily conclude that Kris was personally in favor of MT for game advantage, so don't be a d*ck just because Kris took the position he did.

Your assertion about what 'seems pretty clear' just isn't so. That claim is thoroughly debunked here. "I would like ..." "I'd like ..." "I think they're brilliant ..." "I don't understand the logic behind it (the opposite point of view.)"

I honestly don't see how you can read it and not see that this IS his ACTUAL point of view. He wasn't even willing to say here (or anywhere else) that the opinion he expressed in Fearless is not his actual opinion. He just allows the lies of others to create that impression.

If it's not his actual point of view, then he is willing to PRETEND that something is his point of view and PUT HIS NAME on something that is not his point of view if his bosses tell him to. And that's just as bad. If he is happy and willing to subjugate whatever his personal point of view is, then his actual point of view is irrelevant and the surrogate point of view that his bosses have told him to have is what matters.

Originally by: Mintala Arana
What that issue of Fearless also makes clear (to me, anyway) is that there's an element inside CCP that is in favor of that level of MT. That element inside CCP concerns me way more. And Hilmar's email was completely unacceptable to me; it's obvious he's gotten completely out of touch with the player base.


There is no daylight between Kris and Hilmar. You like one of them because you've enjoyed his shtick on alliance tournament broadcasts over the years. I expect better from the lead designer of Internet Spaceships.

Cunane Jeran
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.03 20:59:00 - [93]
 

Sadly I am a bit of a Soundwave fanboy. Shameful I know. All is forgiven.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:07:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Gaeid Modiso
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Dresses, ship skins, hair pieces? No problem. But nothing that screws up the competitive balance between two players. It's boring and doesn't really bring value to the players.




If you sell hair pieces, you also need to sell a point and laugh emote for use in the station. Can we get a Donald Trump hair piece?


I'm afraid Donald still needs it himself, so we can't have that... Sad

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:09:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Ciar Meara on 03/07/2011 21:09:27
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No reason to be sorry!

EVE has one of the most passionate communities, which becomes very visible both when we do good things, but certainly also when we screw up. This time we screwed up, so let's hope next time there are a lot of people posting, it's because we did something well.

Anyway, have a nice Sunday everyone.


+1 for CCP soundwave, classy.

Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:11:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: The Blind One
Edited by: The Blind One on 03/07/2011 17:23:11
I would like to apologize to you on behalf of the playerbase. You have consistently been one of the people at CCP who demonstrates a real and tangible passion for Eve Online. You put a lot of hard work into making this game as good as it can be for this group of socially-backward, aspie ******s.

You do not deserve the malice and vitriol that you received from us due to the Fearless newsletter.

Anyone who has worked for a large company will recognize that newsletters like that are internal indoctrination tools. They are produced in order to disseminate messages from upper-management to the rest of the company. The claim that it is merely a forum for discussion is simply not true.

But I have absolutely no doubt that you wrote that opinion piece because you were told to do so. You drew the short straw on that one and have been demonized for just doing your job. I apologize for that on behalf of the player-base.

We love you, and we love what you do for the game.

(Edit: On second thought, I'd like to extend this to the entire community team. You guys have a tough job and we appreciate what you do)

To the Community Team,

It being a Sunday, I doubt Soundwave is in the office today. If you would be so kind as to e-mail him a link to this post, I would appreciate it. This has been enormously unfair to him and I feel like he should understand that the vast majority of us recognize that.

Also, thanks to you for doing your job. I can't imagine being occupationally obligated to read through these terrible posts.


No reason to be sorry!

EVE has one of the most passionate communities, which becomes very visible both when we do good things, but certainly also when we screw up. This time we screwed up, so let's hope next time there are a lot of people posting, it's because we did something well.

Anyway, have a nice Sunday everyone.


I wouldn't call your behavior a "screw up". If I referred to my customers that way, I'd have been fired in a heart beat. While the OP is content to brown nose for attention, the rest of us deserve an apology at the very least.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:15:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson


Let me explain why your example makes you ****** to some EVE players. You are spending your time and resources deliberately breaking in-game functionality and then planning to sell that in-game functionality back to the players of a subscription based game who already pay you more per average player than any other such game on the market.

You have neglected Internet Spaceships for so long that the bugs have bugs.




This +10

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:22:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson

If it's not his actual point of view, then he is willing to PRETEND that something is his point of view and PUT HIS NAME on something that is not his point of view if his bosses tell him to. And that's just as bad. If he is happy and willing to subjugate whatever his personal point of view is, then his actual point of view is irrelevant and the surrogate point of view that his bosses have told him to have is what matters.


lol, you've never actually had a job, have you?

ThirdEyeBlenny
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:22:00 - [99]
 


<3 Soundwave, all the best buddy!


Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:23:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Originally by: Mintala Arana
AkJon, it seems pretty clear after even a relatively casual reading of the full Fearless (not the originally posted document, which now looks like it was cut down to make things look worse than they really were) that Kris was asked to write a position piece, one which he might not personally agree with. This is commonly known as "playing the Devil's Advocate". I don't think we can necessarily conclude that Kris was personally in favor of MT for game advantage, so don't be a d*ck just because Kris took the position he did.

Your assertion about what 'seems pretty clear' just isn't so. That claim is thoroughly debunked here. "I would like ..." "I'd like ..." "I think they're brilliant ..." "I don't understand the logic behind it (the opposite point of view.)"

I honestly don't see how you can read it and not see that this IS his ACTUAL point of view. He wasn't even willing to say here (or anywhere else) that the opinion he expressed in Fearless is not his actual opinion. He just allows the lies of others to create that impression.

If it's not his actual point of view, then he is willing to PRETEND that something is his point of view and PUT HIS NAME on something that is not his point of view if his bosses tell him to. And that's just as bad. If he is happy and willing to subjugate whatever his personal point of view is, then his actual point of view is irrelevant and the surrogate point of view that his bosses have told him to have is what matters.

Originally by: Mintala Arana
What that issue of Fearless also makes clear (to me, anyway) is that there's an element inside CCP that is in favor of that level of MT. That element inside CCP concerns me way more. And Hilmar's email was completely unacceptable to me; it's obvious he's gotten completely out of touch with the player base.


There is no daylight between Kris and Hilmar. You like one of them because you've enjoyed his shtick on alliance tournament broadcasts over the years. I expect better from the lead designer of Internet Spaceships.

The advocatus diaboli (devil's advocate) is a canon lawyer appointed by the Catholic Church to argue against canonization of a proposed saint. He doesn't have to agree with the position he's taking, he just has to take the position. The term has been generalized in the past several hundred years to encompass anyone who, while engaged in dialectic (link in the article I linked previously) takes a position against something purely for purposes of argument.

As for liking Kris because of his tournament schtick: not so much. The schtick is annoying; I'd rather have more combat. I just don't think he deserves to be demonized for writing a position paper. To examine both sides of the issue someone had to take that position, and had to argue it convincingly and logically.

Doctor Garamond Trebuchet
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:39:00 - [101]
 

Huge props soundwave for entering this lions den.

+1 respect impant. Good luck getting through all the comtracted dcus. Can you post or tweet how many you actually got?

Some humor will go a long way. Time heals all wounds.

Im still ****ed at Hilmar, because i cant bring myself to buy a PS3 as im an xbox360 and wii player. Oh and the only cool CEO is richard branson!

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.03 22:44:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Doctor Garamond Trebuchet
Huge props soundwave for entering this lions den.

+1 respect impant. Good luck getting through all the comtracted dcus. Can you post or tweet how many you actually got?

Some humor will go a long way. Time heals all wounds.

Im still ****ed at Hilmar, because i cant bring myself to buy a PS3 as im an xbox360 and wii player. Oh and the only cool CEO is richard branson!


That's a hilarious idea!

I currently have 91 contracts to me. They're mostly DCUs, but someone also contracted diplomacy skillbooks, which is pretty damn hilarious. The best one is probably a cloaking device though Laughing.

<3


SilentSkills
Gallente
Tax Evaders Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.03 23:00:00 - [103]
 

He:
came to hell
evaded the flames
resisted temptation
joked with the devil
left relatively unscathed

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.03 23:00:00 - [104]
 

Nothing that wrapping him on a light-pole with silver tape for one night won't fix =)

Chris Fierce
Caldari
NoD Imperium
Posted - 2011.07.03 23:07:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

That's a hilarious idea!

I currently have 91 contracts to me. They're mostly DCUs, but someone also contracted diplomacy skillbooks, which is pretty damn hilarious. The best one is probably a cloaking device though Laughing.

<3




I have a hilarious idea, in fact it could very well be the funniest thing ever......

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS OR HERE !!!

Garekell
Posted - 2011.07.03 23:31:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
In before lock.

Peasants .. oh peasants. Just what is wrong with you.


What's with the sphincter on your face? Rolling Eyes

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.07.04 00:29:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Originally by: Ban Doga
So maybe you could elaborate on your actual personal opinion about MT?
Unless of course you must not...

If any of this no longer reflects your personal beliefs Kris, now might be a good time to clarify that.


I'll tell you what I believe we should never sell; Anything that messes with the competitive balance of the game. No + stat ammo, no + stat ships and anything of that type.

Dresses, ship skins, hair pieces? No problem. But nothing that screws up the competitive balance between two players. It's boring and doesn't really bring value to the players.




What about things that convert TIME into MONEY?

i.e. Selling normal ships that players already have access to?

Player A has lots of Time but little money. So they spend their time playing the game, collecting ore, isk, and building a ship, or buying it with in game currency off the market. Lets say, a Dominix.

Player B doesnt have a lot of time, but has lots of IRL money. So instead of collecting ore and doing all those time consuming things, they just buy a Dominix off the website with IRL CASH?

The Dominix Player A has is IDENTICAL to the DOMINIX Player B has. So there is no advantage. Theres just a difference in the way they acquired the Identical ships.

From the communication we are getting, it feels like you guys are DELIBERATELY wording things to leave this option open.

Youve commented on selling items that would give one player an ADVANTAGE over another. But what about equal items? What about selling items that DO NOT give an advantage? I.e. EVERY ITEM ALREADY IN GAME.


This is the most important post in this thread.

Snake Scofield
Posted - 2011.07.04 00:49:00 - [108]
 

Quote:
Quote:


What about things that convert TIME into MONEY?

i.e. Selling normal ships that players already have access to?

Player A has lots of Time but little money. So they spend their time playing the game, collecting ore, isk, and building a ship, or buying it with in game currency off the market. Lets say, a Dominix.

Player B doesnt have a lot of time, but has lots of IRL money. So instead of collecting ore and doing all those time consuming things, they just buy a Dominix off the website with IRL CASH?

The Dominix Player A has is IDENTICAL to the DOMINIX Player B has. So there is no advantage. Theres just a difference in the way they acquired the Identical ships.

From the communication we are getting, it feels like you guys are DELIBERATELY wording things to leave this option open.

Youve commented on selling items that would give one player an ADVANTAGE over another. But what about equal items? What about selling items that DO NOT give an advantage? I.e. EVERY ITEM ALREADY IN GAME.


This is the most important post in this thread.


They're already doing this with Plex->Isk. Why would they change it? At least it doesn't cut out the manufacturers at the moment.

Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.04 01:22:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave


That's a hilarious idea!

I currently have 91 contracts to me. They're mostly DCUs, but someone also contracted diplomacy skillbooks, which is pretty damn hilarious. The best one is probably a cloaking device though Laughing.

<3





Quoting for posterity.

Soundwave -- sorry for emo raging and flaming but yeah that really hit hard to the entire community.

Incidently you and the rest of CCP have a long hard road ahead of you to get back the trust and respect of players, and yes hillmar does too, so you may want to remind him of his little email.

BUT don't stop posting on the forums, this communication today puts to rest and kills several trolls. Keep it up.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.07.04 01:22:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Snake Scofield
Quote:
Quote:


What about things that convert TIME into MONEY?

i.e. Selling normal ships that players already have access to?

Player A has lots of Time but little money. So they spend their time playing the game, collecting ore, isk, and building a ship, or buying it with in game currency off the market. Lets say, a Dominix.

Player B doesnt have a lot of time, but has lots of IRL money. So instead of collecting ore and doing all those time consuming things, they just buy a Dominix off the website with IRL CASH?

The Dominix Player A has is IDENTICAL to the DOMINIX Player B has. So there is no advantage. Theres just a difference in the way they acquired the Identical ships.

From the communication we are getting, it feels like you guys are DELIBERATELY wording things to leave this option open.

Youve commented on selling items that would give one player an ADVANTAGE over another. But what about equal items? What about selling items that DO NOT give an advantage? I.e. EVERY ITEM ALREADY IN GAME.


This is the most important post in this thread.


They're already doing this with Plex->Isk. Why would they change it? At least it doesn't cut out the manufacturers at the moment.


PLEX doesn't have be worth any ISK. And even though you make a good point, that doesn't mean CCP isn't considering it.

iNfeck7ed
Posted - 2011.07.04 03:24:00 - [111]
 

When I first learned about MT, I was scared because I thought it would mean that all my work in-game would be toppled by people using credit cards.

But, after talking with a friend of mine who has played Eve for many years as well as other MMOs, I have switched my opinion. For the very reason that I love Eve, I want it to profit financially.

Everything that people are afraid of that MT will bring already happens with the official plex and character bazaar. Or by RMT which is bad because it cuts CCP out of profiting for a game that it pays to upkeep, patch, and expand (But, in reality that each of us who pays CCP cash or isk that is sold into cash).

In essence, isk (which can be used to buy anything) and skills are already purchasable by the type of people who buy game money and items with real money. The only difference is now it's getting attention.

Either you're the type to buy in-game money, or you're not. I'm not, although once when I lost my Tengu I was sorely tempted to just buy a plex and sell it for the isk, which there is nothing wrong with that! It's a legitimate deal. Someone with money buys from CCP a plex and sells that plex for isk to someone in-game who worked for that isk, which can then be used to buy anything, even a new Tengu. That is a legitimate deal. It supports the Eve economy, and it's great.

Now, all micro transactions should follow this model - where the players who don't MT get something for making that product that people with money want to buy.

So, if MT has to continue, which it will because it already does, and it's profitable, it should follow this model.

Considering skills and faction standings. These things should also be player bought and sold. For example, consider a pvper who no longer cares for his mining skills, or a pilot who has very high Caldari standings who wouldn't mind selling 2 or 3 points of his standing?

If skill points and faction standing are sold in this manner, the community will not be flooded with an inexhaustible amount of skill points and faction standings, but rather with an exhaustible, and expensive, and profitable item of demand.

For pilots with unwanted skills, this will bring them income, and selling faction standings will bring in a new trade for PvErs who run missions.

As for the skills, the skills themselves are not being sold. The number of skill points ARE being sold. So if player A sells mining skill points, player B can apply those number of skill points to any skill of his choosing.

Essentially, this is the same as buying with a credit card a nicely skilled toon from the character bazaar.

The medium to buy these are Aurum. Aurum is bought by real cash. The supplies in the Nex store, which is bought by Aurum should be entirely supplied by players (except for the possibility of purely vanity items with no gray area), which will then be paid in Aurum to the player-supplier who can then use his newly acquired Aurum to buy items from the Nex store or trad into plex, or isk.

SoundWave, thanks for not pulling a Zulu and freaking out on us, and for keeping it classy and polite.

Kuronaga
Black Snake Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.04 03:35:00 - [112]
 

Yea I imagine it would've looked worse if you'd gone on a tangent about japanese pants.

Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.07.04 03:41:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Alpheias on 04/07/2011 03:42:03
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
RABBLE RABBLE


Getting hysterical over internet spaceships and still not letting it go just can't be healthy for you.

I doubt a hug would help nor getting laid, even if that is what you need at this point. Ask your physician to prescribe something against your anxiety and hysteria.

General Xenophon
Posted - 2011.07.04 04:29:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Originally by: Ban Doga
So maybe you could elaborate on your actual personal opinion about MT?
Unless of course you must not...

If any of this no longer reflects your personal beliefs Kris, now might be a good time to clarify that.


I'll tell you what I believe we should never sell; Anything that messes with the competitive balance of the game. No + stat ammo, no + stat ships and anything of that type.

Dresses, ship skins, hair pieces? No problem. But nothing that screws up the competitive balance between two players. It's boring and doesn't really bring value to the players.




It's nice to see CCP let you take the foot out of your mouth finally :) but that said, been there, done that!

So after you guys are done developing more hats and mittens for us to wear (no wonder Mittani was so pumped about this last meeting with you guys), are we going to be getting oh say, patches with actual fixes or maybe even meaningful content to Eve?

And if you guys are hurting so badly for money I'm sure I can find a bunch of people who play the Sims who would be happy to spend hours picking out clothing types for us to have in Eve..

:) But sarcasm and frustration aside, you do have a tough job and I do wish you the best! Stuff happens and regardless of whether we want to admit it, we all make mistakes. Just live and learn is the best we can do. Just don't **** off your playerbase too much more or there won't be much left to learn from as far as Eve goes.

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2011.07.04 04:41:00 - [115]
 

Doesn't need an Uncle Tom pod pilot apologizing to ccp "anyone" on lemmy's behalf. Lemmy does not appologize to anyone. CCP needs to apologize to Lemmy.

Rikanin
Gallente
The Azerick Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.04 13:24:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No reason to be sorry!

EVE has one of the most passionate communities, which becomes very visible both when we do good things, but certainly also when we screw up. This time we screwed up, so let's hope next time there are a lot of people posting, it's because we did something well.

Anyway, have a nice Sunday everyone.


I wasn't actually planning on responding to this thread because even though I was more vocal than I've ever been about my displeasure with the events of late I never called for anyone's jobs/head to satisfy my anger...I just wanted that one question answered.

The sheer nastiness some people have directed at single employees as if one person were to blame for it all was pretty staggering. That's the Internet though - you're anonymous so to most people that means courteous behavior goes out the window (at best) and at worst it's a license to be full on and unforgivably vicious.

STILL the fact that he's able to come on here with all the nasty trolls this forum seems to be loaded with and post something that benign is IMPRESSIVE. Most of us are lucky the customers we deal with aren't on the Internet - I would not personally be this forgiving.

And for the record - I didn't disagree with everything in his article except the part where he thought CCP needed to increase our emotional attachment. I think it's fair to say, good or bad, we're pretty attached or we wouldn't have cared enough to protest.

(Ok Trolls - go to town...I know you can't help yourselves)

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:42:00 - [117]
 

Kris, I want a 'special shovel' too.

If you won't do anything about bots, and are actively collaborating with the worst offenders, could you implement a 'bot' button that deactivates all my ships modules but causes 50M ISK/hr to be deposited in my wallet?


Red Maiden
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:48:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Kris, I want a 'special shovel' too.

If you won't do anything about bots


Removing bots would destroy the economy. The bots do jobs that no one else wants to do--removing them would break the market.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:51:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Red Maiden
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Kris, I want a 'special shovel' too.

If you won't do anything about bots


Removing bots would destroy the economy. The bots do jobs that no one else wants to do--removing them would break the market.


Spoken like a true bot-user. Of course it's nonsense, but even if it were true then all players should have the opportunity to participate.

Alexandra Alt
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:02:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave


I'll tell you what I believe we should never sell; Anything that messes with the competitive balance of the game. No + stat ammo, no + stat ships and anything of that type.

Dresses, ship skins, hair pieces? No problem. But nothing that screws up the competitive balance between two players. It's boring and doesn't really bring value to the players.




http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1551516
Thanks for your enlightenment, hope grows, I grow eager for news regarding the next updates.


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