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Rainer Unsinn
Posted - 2011.07.02 19:52:00 - [1]
 

Ok, I just read the much awaited dev/CSM blog the third time, and watched the video as well. They claim they negotiated, they had difficult discussions, they were all working their asses off - and that's all that came out of it?

TBH I don't care much about the performance within CQ or the lightning of it. It kinda works, it's neat, grows boring really fast, but I'm fine with it.

"You cannot buy an unfair advantage with money over time" - what the heck does that mean? That's about as vague as it can get. What does 'unfair' mean? How many dollars for a titan are fair? There will never be "gold ammo", that would be unfair, but maybe "silver ammo"? Heck, if you want to nit pick you could say
"There are no plans...to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store" and still sell game breaking items by a store that is named "BeX store" or whatever.

And that's the next part, basically all that CCP said was
"We're not going to break our cash cow".
They did not say "We'll only sell vanity items for AUR", they said "Whatever we sell for AUR it will not break the game". This DOES leave all venues open for Silver Scorpions, Bronze Megathrons and whatever, as long as they are convinced it will not break the game.

Oh, aparently it has all been a communication issue.

Does that mean that CCP is still thinking $15 for an extremely crappy virtual item is fair? What does this spell for Dust, where according to the Fearless PDF degrading guns will be the main money maker? $100 for a gu that lasts two battles instead of one? And more importantly, why should a random console jockey buy that gun instead of a different game that allows unlimited guns and playthroughs with just one payment? Will we see features of EVE being withheld, only to be sold via AUR?

Yeah, I think communication is still an issue, because I don't see any communication in that dev blog at all.

Enlighten me if I missed something. Currently, I am disappoint.

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:07:00 - [2]
 

Apparently CCP is much more comfortable communicating with the CSMs than it is with communicating with the customers.

Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:08:00 - [3]
 

Reading Comprehension,
You need this skillbook.

Khamelean
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:10:00 - [4]
 

If it's not "unfair" and it's not "game breaking", how can you possibly have a problem with it?

Gloria Stitz
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:12:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Khamelean
If it's not "unfair" and it's not "game breaking", how can you possibly have a problem with it?


Define 'unfair'

'game breaking' for ccp is not making a profit

The devblog said nothing at all

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:12:00 - [6]
 

what are you a lawyer?

they wont call it silver ammo,
they wont call it the bex store.
they say vanity only, so i guess till next expansion it will be safe to assume they will follow it, but i have faith people will rise again and fight CCP on stupid descisions.

Sujanra Acoma
Minmatar
Shadow Kitty Legion
Rura-Penthe
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:12:00 - [7]
 

No. You're wrong. You're being willfully ignorant and stubborn, and admitting that you were wrong means admitting that all the conduct of the raging playerbase over the last week has been ludicrously out of touch with reality, not to mention decency.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:18:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Sujanra Acoma
No. You're wrong. You're being willfully ignorant and stubborn, and admitting that you were wrong means admitting that all the conduct of the raging playerbase over the last week has been ludicrously out of touch with reality, not to mention decency.


No, the raging was completely in line with what CCP was telling the playerbase, and what the leaked documents described. It's CCP's fault they were incapable of making a clear and satisfactory statement to the players, and had to fly a bunch of nerds to Iceland and wait a week for those nerds to tell the players instead.

Gloria Stitz
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:21:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Herping yourDerp
what are you a lawyer?

they wont call it silver ammo,
they wont call it the bex store.
they say vanity only, so i guess till next expansion it will be safe to assume they will follow it, but i have faith people will rise again and fight CCP on stupid descisions.


Where did they say any of that?

They spent 2 days putting this through their lawyers so that the devblog says nothing at all.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:22:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Apparently CCP is much more comfortable communicating with the CSMs than it is with communicating with the customers.

What "apparently" ?
It's been pretty obvious that you can't even begin to reason with a large portion of the people that frequented the forums in the past few days.
OF COURSE they would find talking to a small number of suspicious but ultimately reasonable people much more "comfortable" than to try to have a conversation with a teeming, screeching mob with torches and pitchforks.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:25:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 02/07/2011 20:26:44
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ghoest
Apparently CCP is much more comfortable communicating with the CSMs than it is with communicating with the customers.

What "apparently" ?
It's been pretty obvious that you can't even begin to reason with a large portion of the people that frequented the forums in the past few days.
OF COURSE they would find talking to a small number of suspicious but ultimately reasonable people much more "comfortable" than to try to have a conversation with a teeming, screeching mob with torches and pitchforks.


All they needed to do was answer the one question, and answer it early. Either they changed their minds, or they chose not to do this.

You are wrong. And now CCP has lost many subscriptions, either for nothing, or due to a mistake.

CCP's 'comfort' is irrelevant. They are a business, their point is to make money. Losing a lot of subscriptions is not good business.

Rainer Unsinn
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:40:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ghoest
Apparently CCP is much more comfortable communicating with the CSMs than it is with communicating with the customers.

What "apparently" ?
It's been pretty obvious that you can't even begin to reason with a large portion of the people that frequented the forums in the past few days.
OF COURSE they would find talking to a small number of suspicious but ultimately reasonable people much more "comfortable" than to try to have a conversation with a teeming, screeching mob with torches and pitchforks.


If after all this rage the only result is "All is well, we told someone our plans but forbade them to talk about it" without any explanation at all I might just as well pull out the pitchfork again.

Rainer Unsinn
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:44:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Herping yourDerp
what are you a lawyer?


No, an alt of a player who has seen CCP turn from a company where the devs posted pictures of themselves with a wig and a blow-up doll to an entity that consults their lawyers before they confirm that the sky may in fact be blue.

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ghoest
Apparently CCP is much more comfortable communicating with the CSMs than it is with communicating with the customers.

What "apparently" ?
It's been pretty obvious that you can't even begin to reason with a large portion of the people that frequented the forums in the past few days.
OF COURSE they would find talking to a small number of suspicious but ultimately reasonable people much more "comfortable" than to try to have a conversation with a teeming, screeching mob with torches and pitchforks.


Well "reasoning" as you put it doesnt always pay off.

You yourself defended(note I say defended not advocated) various positions that were game breakers for many of us.

And then once we heard Hilmar say "what they do not what they say" all the unhappy players knew that reasoning was pointless. This was decided by players exploding with anger to a level that CCP had to back down.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:47:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
All they needed to do was answer the one question, and answer it early. Either they changed their minds, or they chose not to do this.

All they needed to answer was a question that CAN'T be answered honestly by a company to the complete satisfaction of the protesters.
CCP can not afford to EVER say "we will never under any circumstances ever allow any form of gameplay advantage granting AUR items".
Even if for the time being it would be their decision to not do any of that and avoid doing it if at all possible.
Quote:
You are wrong. And now CCP has lost many subscriptions, either for nothing, or due to a mistake.
CCP's 'comfort' is irrelevant. They are a business, their point is to make money. Losing a lot of subscriptions is not good business.

I am not convinced that there has been a really noticeable LONG-TERM drain in subscription numbers JUST BECAUSE of this incident.
It might have been the straw that broke the camel's back for a few people that might possibly have canceled soon enough anyway, and some of the people that quit now WILL return sooner rather than later when they see that there's nothing quite comparable to EVE out there for now.

If EVE would finally get some serious direct competition, yeah, you would have a point, this would have indeed caused a huge subscriber loss.
But sadly, it hasn't.
And CCP gets to keep doing that sort of junk without much more than the financial equivalent of a slap on the wrist for as long as there's no such competition.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:53:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Well "reasoning" as you put it doesn't always pay off.

And for all you know, protesting and rioting might have not really paid off either.

Quote:
You yourself defended(note I say defended not advocated) various positions that were game breakers for many of us.

For me, it was an exercise of "what's the worst that could happen and how bad would it really be?", so the emphasis and meaning you choose to ascribe to my arguments are not necessarily the only universal way to interpret them.
If you think I am actually happy with the direction CCP took, you are gravely mistaking. But being not pleased by it and being unable to understand it are not mutually exclusive.
Plus, I hate it when a scandal is one-sided.

Quote:
And then once we heard Hilmar say "what they do not what they say" all the unhappy players knew that reasoning was pointless. This was decided by players exploding with anger to a level that CCP had to back down.

Oh, so was that about the time they disengaged their brains and stopped reading to the part where he also said "That is not saying nothing will change, on the contrary, in fact we know that success in this space is through learning and adapting to _what is actually happening_ and new knowledge gained in addition to what we knew before and expected." ?!?

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
All they needed to do was answer the one question, and answer it early. Either they changed their minds, or they chose not to do this.

All they needed to answer was a question that CAN'T be answered honestly by a company to the complete satisfaction of the protesters.CCP can not afford to EVER say "we will never under any circumstances ever allow any form of gameplay advantage granting AUR items".



And yet they just did, a week after they should have. So that is clearly false.

They didn't say your exact quote, but they did answer the question the way the protesters wanted.


Quote:

I am not convinced that there has been a really noticeable LONG-TERM drain in subscription numbers JUST BECAUSE of this incident.
It might have been the straw that broke the camel's back for a few people that might possibly have canceled soon enough anyway, and some of the people that quit now WILL return sooner rather than later when they see that there's nothing quite comparable to EVE out there for now.


Anytime subscriptions drop in anything, a certain fraction do not come back. So, it is a good idea for subscription based businesses to not encourage subscriptions to decline.

Elrica bloodbane
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:55:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Elrica bloodbane on 02/07/2011 20:56:50
The CSM raised concerns with performance running multiple clients after the Incarna launch where the minimum hardware spec will only support one client logged in when in a station environment. CCP will work on creating a minimum hardware spec that supports multiple clients, but wants it to be clear that the current minimum specification aims at single client with low settings.Evil or Very Mad

Best not re-sub my other accounts then

The CSM helped CCP understand the emotional connection players had with „ship spinning". They vehemently demanded the return of the feature, which CCP committed to introduce in some form at a future date. Until that functionality is added back in, the option to not load station environments will remain in the Settings menu.

Talk about lack of communication, we want function not ship twirling.
What were the csm thinking.SadSad

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:56:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Ban Doga on 02/07/2011 20:56:46
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
All they needed to do was answer the one question, and answer it early. Either they changed their minds, or they chose not to do this.

All they needed to answer was a question that CAN'T be answered honestly by a company to the complete satisfaction of the protesters.
CCP can not afford to EVER say "we will never under any circumstances ever allow any form of gameplay advantage granting AUR items".
Even if for the time being it would be their decision to not do any of that and avoid doing it if at all possible.


Wait are you just saying CCP did not say "we will never sell non-vanity items"?
Because that's what the people who feel "relieved" have read in there.

Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
You are wrong. And now CCP has lost many subscriptions, either for nothing, or due to a mistake.
CCP's 'comfort' is irrelevant. They are a business, their point is to make money. Losing a lot of subscriptions is not good business.

I am not convinced that there has been a really noticeable LONG-TERM drain in subscription numbers JUST BECAUSE of this incident.

So you're not convinced. That doesn't really mean anything.

There will be a dent in the subscriber graph when the next QEN comes out.
I'm sure there will be an ample supply of explanations why that's the case.


Originally by: Akita T
It might have been the straw that broke the camel's back for a few people that might possibly have canceled soon enough anyway, and some of the people that quit now WILL return sooner rather than later when they see that there's nothing quite comparable to EVE out there for now.



SOME of the people who quit now will return later.
That's your great insight?!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:00:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 02/07/2011 21:01:02
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
All they needed to do was answer the one question, and answer it early. Either they changed their minds, or they chose not to do this.

All they needed to answer was a question that CAN'T be answered honestly by a company to the complete satisfaction of the protesters.CCP can not afford to EVER say "we will never under any circumstances ever allow any form of gameplay advantage granting AUR items".

And yet they just did, a week after they should have. So that is clearly false.

Originally by: Ban Doga
Wait are you just saying CCP did not say "we will never sell non-vanity items"?
Because that's what the people who feel "relieved" have read in there.


Did they ?
You might want to re-read the blog in that case.
Quote:
They didn't say your exact quote, but they did answer the question the way the protesters wanted.

And what a surprise, quite a few of the former protesters are STILL unhappy because they DIDN'T use that exact wording.

Quote:
Anytime subscriptions drop in anything, a certain fraction do not come back. So, it is a good idea for subscription based businesses to not encourage subscriptions to decline.

And every time you encourage new groups of subscribers to come in, you also lose a portion of the old subscribers.
From a purely financial standpoint, it's not good to hold on to 2% of the subscribers if that prevents you from gaining 10% more down the road.

Vherkin
Amarr
War Cake
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:04:00 - [21]
 

Ho come on, your just being picky.

Let me help you:
It is CCP‘s plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only.

"There are no plans...to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store"

Why calling these game breaking ?
Because the player, us, called these type of item game breaking.
You forgot something here, we aren't a court. If they go back in six month saying, we promised nothing, see it was vague enough! We can simply quit the game and say **** you, liar.

Quote:
What does this spell for Dust, where according to the Fearless PDF degrading guns will be the main money maker

Most micro-transaction game make their money about the fact you never buy forever something, you rent it.

Calling it degration in place of renting is just more RP i guess. Though, i still dislike the idea of dust.

General Xenophon
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:04:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/07/2011 21:09:04
Originally by: Rainer Unsinn
Ok, I just read the much awaited dev/CSM blog the third time, and watched the video as well. They claim they negotiated, they had difficult discussions, they were all working their asses off - and that's all that came out of it?

TBH I don't care much about the performance within CQ or the lightning of it. It kinda works, it's neat, grows boring really fast, but I'm fine with it.

"You cannot buy an unfair advantage with money over time" - what the heck does that mean? That's about as vague as it can get. What does 'unfair' mean? How many dollars for a titan are fair? There will never be "gold ammo", that would be unfair, but maybe "silver ammo"? Heck, if you want to nit pick you could say
"There are no plans...to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store" and still sell game breaking items by a store that is named "BeX store" or whatever.

And that's the next part, basically all that CCP said was
"We're not going to break our cash cow".
They did not say "We'll only sell vanity items for AUR", they said "Whatever we sell for AUR it will not break the game". This DOES leave all venues open for Silver Scorpions, Bronze Megathrons and whatever, as long as they are convinced it will not break the game.

Oh, aparently it has all been a communication issue.

Does that mean that CCP is still thinking $15 for an extremely crappy virtual item is fair? What does this spell for Dust, where according to the Fearless PDF degrading guns will be the main money maker? $100 for a gu that lasts two battles instead of one? And more importantly, why should a random console jockey buy that gun instead of a different game that allows unlimited guns and playthroughs with just one payment? Will we see features of EVE being withheld, only to be sold via AUR?

Yeah, I think communication is still an issue, because I don't see any communication in that dev blog at all.

Enlighten me if I missed something. Currently, I am disappoint.


Dev Blog

Dev blog says: "It is CCP‘s plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store."

I can't believe I'm actually defending CCP after such a cluster PR ****up on their part but I think they are in some way trying to right things that went badly, and for that I think they should get some credit. That said, there's still work to be done.

We'll have to hold them to that. Also I agree with you, I'd like to know that something was actually accomplished and what that is besides simply agreeing that they've spoken at length to one another.

But to this I also say, look, I protested on the forums. I raged on the forums. But right now CCP and the CSM do need SOME time to put things into place to show what happened and what is coming from this meeting. So let's try to wait a bit before we totally go off on another rage, because frankly last week was enough drama for a loooong time.

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:06:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Elrica bloodbane


Talk about lack of communication, we want function not ship twirling.
What were the csm thinking.SadSad


The honest answer is they were thinking about:

1)What they were going to put on their resumes (.. resonsible for 300 thousand players, I acted as a a representative in the most succesful mmo and liased with Buzzword, blah blah)

2) Where they were going out to get drunk tonight.

3) Whether or not they would get any other media interviews out of this.

SKUNK

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:08:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Ghoest on 02/07/2011 21:09:47
Originally by: Akita T

Oh, so was that about the time they disengaged their brains and stopped reading to the part where he also said "That is not saying nothing will change, on the contrary, in fact we know that success in this space is through learning and adapting to _what is actually happening_ and new knowledge gained in addition to what we knew before and expected." ?!?


A couple of things.

1 If someone says they arent listening to you its silly to keep talking nicely if you want results. What you call "disengaging brain" I would I would call an elevated level of negative feedback.

2 There is a difference in the way you and I see customers dealing with game devs.

You see it as two groups of adults having a rational discussion.

I see it as two groups with both shared and competing interests. Where one group has all the authority but the other group has mass. I think the authorities tried to leverage their power for a money grab and the masses surprisingly held their own.

My(and others) approach to dealing with MMO devs is based on over 10 years of experience dealing with MMO devs.
Players only have 2 cards and and they do well to use them - subscriptions and causing a commotion.


I see this as players successfully standing up to game devs, you see it as bad communication.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:09:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/07/2011 21:09:42
Considering that 'unfair advantages' and 'gamebreaking' are such subjective definitions OP has a point, CCP doesnt really state anything new. Of course CCP wont release something they consider an unfair advantage, but if the player base doesnt consider it unfair is something else. Even more of course ccp wont (deliberately) create something that is gamebreaking, but that is also all a matter of interpretation if it breaks the game.


Edit: not that it matters considering that CCP kinda has a history of ignoring what they said before.

ChiShen
Infinity Research
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:11:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: ChiShen on 02/07/2011 21:16:16
I have to admit, after reading the email i find the devblog pretty vague and unsatisfactory; maybe lawyers edited it into a wall of text that doesn't really say anything important, maybe CCP likes being vague.

The email in the first place isn't anything new. It has been obvious for many years that CCP is out of touch from the player base, whether its poor communication with the community or just that they don't care it's hard to say. The email itself leans towards not caring, which is hurtful for many players.

"I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what CCP do and less of what they say"

The term "Game Breaking" could be defined dozens of different ways. I will not be surprised to see items added "that affect gameplay" (being the use of gamebreaking i hope they mean. It may be 2012 before it happens; maybe CCP leadership changes in the future, but it seems very likely something will be added that contradicts "that affect gameplay".

Khamelean
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:11:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Gloria Stitz
Originally by: Khamelean
If it's not "unfair" and it's not "game breaking", how can you possibly have a problem with it?


Define 'unfair'

'game breaking' for ccp is not making a profit

The devblog said nothing at all


When you feel that something "unfair" or "game breaking" happens, then you have reason to complain. Until then you have no ground to stand on.

loony thezoon
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:12:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: General Xenophon


Dev Blog

Dev blog says: "It is CCP‘s plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store."




I wonder what store they will set up to sell them?

Odd that they specifically mentioned Nex store.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:15:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Did they ?
You might want to re-read the blog in that case.


You are backpedaling by playing dumb word games. The outrage was because the playerbase believed that the selling of non-vanity items was planned and inevitable. If you don't think the new devblog addresses that concern, then I suggest you re-read it.

And if you don't understand what the playerbase anger was about, well, then I have to wonder why you made so many posts about it.


Khira Kitamatsu
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:16:00 - [30]
 

It wouldn't matter what CCP says, some of the people posting here are now just trolling. CCP clearly stated that they have no plans of adding anything to the NEX's other than non-vanity items...period..end of story. Same thing they have said repeatedly "publicly". That is good enough for me. \o/



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