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Daxel Magmalloy
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:23:00 - [601]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Yes, CCP still wants to dock straight to Incarna. Yes, we all think that's a mistake, and we'll keep on trying to convince them they are wrong.


So they didn't listen then.

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:23:00 - [602]
 

a refurbished door and another fluffy statement - did I miss anything?

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:24:00 - [603]
 

Reading is Fundamental!

Okay, I've had it with this forum, for now. Good luck, CSM. The real hyenas literally LIVE in these forums, and not in my corp. ;D

Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:27:00 - [604]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Potter Stuart and the Purchase of Insurance

The truth is, we already have P2W in EVE. It's called PLEX. Right now, if you have enough money, you can buy PLEX, convert to ISK, and buy yourself as many supercaps as you want, and the pilots toons to fly them.




True. After a fashion. The difference is that when someone buys a PLEX from CCP and trades it to someone else in exchange for ISK with which to buys supercaps and characters to fly said monstermobiles, someone else will have put in the effort to get minerals and build the ship as well as paying for skilltime. And that difference is kind of important.

Absolute Aftermath
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:29:00 - [605]
 

So, there will be "ship spinnig". Are you all happy now? Jesus Christ.

Chris Fierce
Caldari
NoD Imperium
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:30:00 - [606]
 

Edited by: Chris Fierce on 02/07/2011 21:33:59
Originally by: Chris Fierce
So nothing important talked about then, like broken game mechanics and half assed expansions.

Enjoy your holidays.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1489084&page=1

JGR Mao
Gallente
JGR Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:30:00 - [607]
 

Oh well
Not really convinced as we did not get a definitive answer

But i guess it will have to do - atleast for now

Will definately be watching both what you say, and what you do more closely from now on.


Its ok to milk the cow - as long as you provide it some fresh pastures to munch on and generally keep it happy

Starving the cow to milk it even further, and then scaring it by bringin it to the slaughterhouse to sell its meat, will not work on these bloodthirsty voracious spacecows you have helped breeding here -mmkay!

Moria Kethar
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:31:00 - [608]
 

While I understand your view Trebor and read it earlier, it doesn't negate the fact that direct sale of non-vanity items by CCP would bypass the player economy. I.e. the thing that makes the game go around. Items in game currently exist because a player worked to create them. And sale of things that are not item but do bypass game mechanics (standings, ect) have obvious game breaking effect. I've already said my piece - once in the threadnaught, and updated here (top of page 20) and it stands.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:32:00 - [609]
 

This agreement will work for me for me for now. There are two issues that I would like to mention, though:

1. CCP's credibility with me has taken irreparable damage, and I see no reason to change my belief that CCP will eventually make decisions that will force me from the game.

2. Nowhere in the agreement is there a mention of any future effort to try to fix any of the many existing problems with the Eve client software, or the server side issues. If this was an oversight, or CCP intends to address these issues separately, fine. If not, it's going to continue to be a divisive issue, for me, and, I suspect, for many others.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:38:00 - [610]
 

Edited by: Sarina Berghil on 02/07/2011 21:38:53
A comment on Trebor's blog
http://treborofthecsm.blogspot.com/2011/07/potter-stuart-and-purchase-of-insurance.html

Quote:

Imagine for a moment that instead of making this a free remap, CCP had decided that it should have a cost. Consider the following three options:

A) You can remap once per year at a cost of 400 million ISK.

B) You can remap once per year at a cost of a PLEX.

C) You can remap once per year at a cost of 3500 AURUM.


If you surveyed groups of players about the acceptability of these options (set aside the inevitable *****ing that "it should be free" for a moment), I believe that A would be acceptable to the most players, and C to the fewest, and the difference in acceptability would be significant.

Why? Because ISK represents player effort, while AURUM is tainted by its association with monocles.

Yet in reality, all these options are roughly equivalent. If you have 400 million ISK, you can buy a PLEX. If you have a PLEX, you can convert it to 3500 AURUM. And if you have 3500 AURUM, you can buy some clothes and sell them in the market for ISK.



B and C are exactly equivalent, but A is very different.

PLEX->Remap and Aurum->Remap offers a fixed exchange rate.

PLEX->ISK->Remap does not because the PLEX->ISK exchange is based on the player market. The original PLEX system was very gentle on the sandbox environment because it was kept in check by demand. Aurum is not kept in check the same way and can therefore potentially have a much larger effect.

As another poster mentioned the mere existance of the NeX puts extra demand on PLEX, thus giving people a better exchange rate converting PLEX->ISK, but a worse rate converting ISK->gametime.
So indirectly every item sold in the NeX buffs existing P2W options using PLEX.

Neutral Updater
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:39:00 - [611]
 

Edited by: Neutral Updater on 02/07/2011 21:39:03
*delete*

Ra Vhim
Black Bag Ops
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:40:00 - [612]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Yes, CCP still wants to dock straight to Incarna.



Did they explain why we must be forced into Incarna? Or did they explain why pilots must leave their pod every time they dock? I am hoping for an other answer then that this is CCP's way to promote NeX (and I would very much appreciate hearing about it).

Enuen Ravenseye
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:40:00 - [613]
 

Not everything I hoped, but pretty much exactly what I expected. Resubbing, for now. Future actions will be watched closely.

So we can get back to the normal everyday spaceship killing and general BS of Eve, right? Good! In that case, one comment on the video: could Mittani have any more ****ing product in his hair?

Katana Seiko
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:41:00 - [614]
 

\o/

Now can we please get that AUR currency out of the game please? It's just the biggest bullcrap CCP ever came up with.

Also, since all those CCPs and Devs and such all have a color bar. Can we have a green one for CSM replies? Prettyplease.. Very Happy

Lastly: I hope we woke you up, CCP. We are not that silent group of players that takes things lightly. At least, most of us.

Kai'il Bhaal
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:41:00 - [615]
 

All those unhappy please unsub and biomass so the community at large does not have to listen to your *****ing. Thank you! Oh, and give me your stuff etc etc

Slaghead
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:45:00 - [616]
 

Something that might help CQ is if it had it's own tab of display settings. I have to turn my settings down when I dock and then I have to go and mess with them after I undock. Or at least if I use the presets.

Ulmon Aulen
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:45:00 - [617]
 

"It is CCP‘s plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only."

Just imagine how much less of a controversy there would have been if CCP had said this in the first dev blog after the fearless leak.

All in all, I am quite pleased at the resolution reached.

Heavenly Blues
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:48:00 - [618]
 

I got 99 problems but CCP aint one.

Perpetuum Online is great.

Humble Hungarians > Greedy Drunken Icelanders.

Ketria Saine
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:49:00 - [619]
 

As a new player of four months, I hope all EVE expansions are not like this! Very Happy

So I've read the statements and watched the video, and I must admit I'm pretty happy. The three issues I had (NEX pricing and strategy, CQ performance, the hangar view) have all been addressed and dealt with. I am very pleased we're getting some sort of hangar view back eventually, and that the "Door" will remain an option in the meantime.

Hats off to the CSM for flying to Iceland at short notice and fighting our corner. I think they've done us proud. o7

And I do hope CCP have learned some hard lessons from the last couple of weeks.

-KS

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:50:00 - [620]
 

Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 02/07/2011 21:53:47
Originally by: Ra Vhim
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Yes, CCP still wants to dock straight to Incarna.



Did they explain why we must be forced into Incarna? Or did they explain why pilots must leave their pod every time they dock? I am hoping for an other answer then that this is CCP's way to promote NeX (and I would very much appreciate hearing about it).


Because it makes for a more seamless (hate the marketing word, but it's true) interaction between "flying in space" and "doing stuff based on your character".

I've always said that it would be better to have people dock in their hangar and make them want to join InCarna for its own values, but it makes sense to me that, if performance are equal, not having to go through an additional step makes the 2 more integrated. So if performance is equal, then it's acceptable to me otherwise it's just *****ing "I don't want InCarna".
Well, InCarna's here whether we wanted it or not, so if it's there and docking/interacting doesn't take more resources, then it makes sense not to have the intermediary "hangar" step.

The time to complaining "I don't want InCarna" has come and passed, what now matters is the impact for us who care less about the integration between the two.

Edit: and the reason the statements do not cover every edge-case is because we have to summarize 2 days of hectic discussion about all those cases into a few paragraphs, we feel the statement we made covers the points made by the players and addresses them. And yes, your dissection of every word and wriggle room and grey area and tiny detail that wasn't mentionned in the statement has been discussed and addressed.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:50:00 - [621]
 

Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello everyone,

I can see you guys are posting faster than I can read though the comments but I wanted to jump in and answer one or two of your queries. I want you to note that my answers here are not the be all and end all and, like most technical decisions, these are subject to change depending on hardware and technical requirements. I will certainly be passing on a lot of your questions to people who are much more informed on the subject and can drop by this thread early next week and provide greater clarification:

Return of ship spinning

This is something that a lot of players are curious about and what I can tell you is that we will implement a form of ship spinning but we are not returning to the old hangar view. This new variation will be similar and, while you can spin your ship, it will not be exactly how it was before. The time line for designing, testing and implementing this new variation of ship spinning has not been finalized but we will bring you more information in a future dev blog.

Minimum Specs

The minimum specifications that we display are for one client running on the lowest end machine. This means that you will be able to load Incarna at the minimum spec and play EVE Online. We are going to investigate introducing a minimum specification for players who want to run two clients in the upcoming 'ship spinning' view. What these minimum specs will be are still to be decided and, again, we will bring this to you in the form of a dev blog.

EVE Online, the future and Incarna

Some of you are concerned that EVE will focus on improvements to Incarna while Flying in Space will have a lesser focus. I can assure you that CCP Soundwave and his team have some announcements coming up after the summer which will make you very happy indeed. yes, we will improve on Incarna while at the same time improving on many aspects of Flying in Space. I have no intention of stealing the thunder from Team BFF and telling you what these are but I can tell you that there will be many happy people as a result Smile

As I said in my introduction, I just want to give you all some quick feedback and that a lot of this is based on technical limitations. I don't want to further expand on these answers as it would be much better if you heard them directly from someone who has more knowledge about it than I do.


Just so CCP knows it is really 'stupid' and 'silly' from a player's POV to not just return the old hangar view and stick a damn button that says 'exit pod' or 'disembark' somewhere. Instead CCP is 'ignoring' us in deciding to, once again, reinvent the wheel with a 'new' version of the old hangar that from what the dev blog says will be temporary until HW/SW issues are worked out in CQ/Incarna.

IT *MIGHT* be 'okay' to reinvent the wheel had you listened to us months ago or kept your promise to make CQ optional so you would have had time to reinvent the ship's hangar again but YOU (CCP) CHOSE to ignore it and push on with CQ for all damn the hw/sw issues being reported.

Minimum Specs, AGAIN really pointless to just up the requirements for a poorly designed/implemented 'engine' that is Incarna, it isn't done, there are still bugs. Toss in the fact that it SHOULD be optional and it makes NO sense to up the minimum specs but that isn't the point and we are all smart enough to know you mean to force us to use Incarna to push the sales of NEX, etc. IF there was actually CONTENT(gameplay) for CQ/Incarna you wouldn't NEED to force people to use it. They'd check it out and use it on their own because it actually was AWESOME instead of taking your stick, prying us out of our pods and tossing us into the 'room'.

I hope there is good news and it isn't a year or more away, I think we are all concerned about more Incarna expansions with no content, followed by expanding PI so you can setup DUST while the SPACE game we signed up for comes in 3rd place/last.

Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:51:00 - [622]
 

Edited by: Esrevid Nekkeg on 02/07/2011 22:17:10
I have patiently waited for the outcome of this emergency summit, and I'm glad I did.
Having read the statements from CCP and the CSM gave me back some confidence in the future of EvE.
For me that is a good thing, because I have found it to be a wonderful game in many aspects. It truly is a Si-Fi world I can happily get lost in (and often do).
CCP has at least to some point shown that they are committed to keep EvE that way.
Not as a static never changing environment, but as a vibrant and evolving Si-Fi simulation.

There is only one thing I'm worried about and that is regarding the ability of my hardware to run two accounts simultaneously:
Originally by: Arnar Hrafn Gylfason, Senior Producer for EVE Online
The CSM raised concerns with performance running multiple clients after the Incarna launch where the minimum hardware spec will only support one client logged in when in a station environment. CCP will work on creating a minimum hardware spec that supports multiple clients, but wants it to be clear that the current minimum specification aims at single client with low settings.
My machine exceeds the present recommended system configuration on every point except for the fact that I have a NVIDIA Gforce GT430 instead of a GTX460 in my PC. And it can not run two clients without seriously overheating and in general slowing down to an unacceptable level. And having read several posts regarding that or similar hardware issues, I know I'm not the only one.
This continuing issue has me worried, but not put off.

CCP made promises regarding the future of EvE and their future communication efforts towards the CSM and the player base as a whole, as did the CSM to CCP and to the players they represent to make sure CCP keeps those promises. And that is also good.

Now I will just wait for that future to happen. I'm looking forward to it, please don't disappoint me.

Kueijin Legion
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:51:00 - [623]
 

That's it...

So let me get this **** straight. Your paying customers asked some very simple questions (P2W?, why you melty my cardy?, WTF a door?). Instead of answering those questions in a timely manner, you get all evasive, post some smart assed devblog, halt communications with your paying customers, and fly some CSM people (who I didn't vote for, yet they represent my interests...yeah right) all the way to your frozen paradise. All so we could get a cliffnotes blog and a creepy manlove video?

...

HOLY **** IS CCP OUT OF TOUCH!!!

If what was said in that small blog was the case, why the hell didn't you say that a week ago you twits?! Are you that brain dead?!

And it's not like I trust CCP to keep its word on anything after multiple lies and that smarmy assed email from Hilmar that he has such a boner about finding who leaked it.

CCP treating employees like you apparently do is what got you egg on your face and the truth revealed, not some "miscommunication". Try selling your condescending BS somewhere else.

This "Golden Goose" has flown the coop and taken his eggs with him.

**** you CCP, and especially **** you Hilmar!

Kelnarn Shaelingrath
Caldari
River-Rats in space
The Ditanian Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:51:00 - [624]
 

Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
One more flight before I get home... whew.

[snip]
With respect to the issue of why CCP can't just say "NEVER" to gold ammo/P2W/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-this-week, I just posted a blog that gives my perspective on this.

Potter Stuart and the Purchase of Insurance


i dont personnal want anything to do with incaran, i jsut want a station enironment that fuctions and dosnt hog all my pc has to offer. incrana and man barbie can die off for all i care.

we all know ccp's way of implementing things, it will take for ever and it will suck just as much from peoepls pc's and probibly more.
are they taht disconnected with players( almost everyone i know in game, corp and alliance) have and share this same view. we all multi box and ccp are currently killing that for many of us. no longer can i run 6 accounts, so im dam well not gonan pay for them.


Good article Trebor...



Smoking Blunts, I have to go with you on most of this, I can't run 3 accounts with the station environment loaded, but can run all 5 without it just fine, I read the Dev blog about how Incarna only impacted older machines, ect ect in a negative fashion and I don't buy it for a minute...
I have an i7 quad core/24 gigs ram/dual EVGA cards(advertised by EVE complete with discount codes) and still running 3 accounts cripples my machine when that stuff's loaded...

here's an older pic of it before the new stuffs was added...

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Unlike most folks, I actually "LIKE" the station stuff though and I think that being able to walk around in it does in fact add a little something to the game for me, I like looking at my CQ and walking around in it when I'm just sitting idle and doing nothing, or (since I work from home) when I'm working and logged in chatting with my friends in between support tickets, but, at the current load on the system?, I'd rather just do without it altogether until it is as light as pre-incarna.

o/

K.S.


Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:53:00 - [625]
 

Originally by: Ravcharas
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Potter Stuart and the Purchase of Insurance

The truth is, we already have P2W in EVE. It's called PLEX. Right now, if you have enough money, you can buy PLEX, convert to ISK, and buy yourself as many supercaps as you want, and the pilots toons to fly them.

True. After a fashion. The difference is that when someone buys a PLEX from CCP and trades it to someone else in exchange for ISK with which to buys supercaps and characters to fly said monstermobiles, someone else will have put in the effort to get minerals and build the ship as well as paying for skilltime. And that difference is kind of important.

I entirely agree, and this :effort: aspect (as opposed to :poof it appears out of thin air:) is one dimension that IMHO divides legitimate stuff from pay2win. But it's not the only thing, and it can get mighty murky really fast.

SunTsu Rae
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:54:00 - [626]
 

Like the song says, "Only Time Will Tell" . . . . . Rolling Eyesugh

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:56:00 - [627]
 

Originally by: Daxel Magmalloy
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Yes, CCP still wants to dock straight to Incarna. Yes, we all think that's a mistake, and we'll keep on trying to convince them they are wrong.

So they didn't listen then.

Oh, they listened all right. But they don't agree. CSM can't force CCP to do anything, we can only try to persuade.

Can of Beans
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:56:00 - [628]
 

I'm still not convinced. Saying 'there are no plans and never have been' isn't saying 'there never will be plans' for gold ammo.

My accounts are staying unsubbed.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:56:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: SunTsu Rae
Like the song says, "Only Time Will Tell" . . . . . Rolling Eyesugh


As always. But at least the bad things haven't been introduced, and we dispelled the notion that they were planned for introduction. Should that change obviously so will our stance.

Cham Palaung
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:59:00 - [630]
 

The simple FACT that CCP have not been able to give us any clear answer immediatly, and that they made us wait so long, is for me a clear clue that their original intention was to introduce non-vanity items.
They tried everything to win time, simply because they had not this answer at start. They have changed their plan when they saw that they could not continue the way they had planned, this time.
But they had the intention to introduce non-vanity items, as the leaked document and many other clues are showing it. So i am sure that they have not lost this intention, they will just try to make it later, in a more "subtle" way.
No, their words have no value for me. I won't renew my subscription. I will wait, long, and watch very carefully what they will do. Their reaction has been too unnatural and illogical to be honest. Why doing all this circus and being always so unclear when it would have taken five minuts to answer in a very clear manner the big yellow question. All that sound wrong.


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