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blankseplocked Closing The Gap.. Allowing players to start faster, so they don't quit
 
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HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.01 18:21:00 - [1]
 

Ok, so this may be a bit of a retro idea, and may be suggested as a crazy idea.

It seems like now a days most new players in the world of eve don't last long because of the amount of training time it takes to get into a decent spot to make playing tolerable.

So, since eve has been around for so long and there's no way that new players will ever be able to catch up with the players that have been around for a while.

What would ppl think if we gave all new players a certain amount of skill points to apply wherever they see fit?

Now, the amount of skills points offered would be enough to get them headed in a good direction, but not enough to get them mining with exhumers and t2 lasers, but you know, something reasonable.

To make up for it maybe the could give all existing characters those skill points as well.

Again, the amount of skill points given aren't going to be enough to be a game changer for anyone, but enough skill points to knock out a few skills that will help noobs feel like they're in the game, and just a little extra spending money for older players.

The only reason why i'm suggesting such ideas is to bring more players into eve and keep them around.

We all know that the first month of play is the most likely time that a player will leave the game and never come back.
If you give them the skill points to basically take them out of that first month, then it's likely they'll stick around, and most players that quit later on, often come back anyway cause nothing else compares to eve.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.07.01 18:34:00 - [2]
 

There are players who train toons for sale. Giving new players free skill points would take away from this. If CCP wanted to make Eve more newb friendly they could greatly expand the character bazaar experience. Ideas would include:

Make the character transfer forum more obvious. Advertise it.
Subdivide the bazaar according to combat, industry, recon, etc
Create a universal form to make viewing easy.
Subsidize low skill point toons. Give vets a reason to burn and turn 3 million sp toons
Create a function that allows buyers a one time chance to change the toon's race, gender, and name. Some people don't want to fly 'Alottavagina'

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.01 19:04:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN

It seems like now a days most new players in the world of eve don't last long because of the amount of training time it takes to get into a decent spot to make playing tolerable.


to all of you who think the training time is long *now*, I counter with the point that pre-removal of the learning skills, we all had to pretty much train learning skills for 2 weeks (i.e. the entire trial) in order to have reasonable training times.

taking a brand new, fresh out of the character creator noob pilot (non-minmatar), they can have all the "basic" skills to fly a Rifter inside of a week (5d 15h 33m to be exact).

that's 5 days to be somewhere between "decent" and "good" in a frigate.

To get all the skills to level four, it takes 36d 14h 23m. Approx 36.5 days to have 80% of the skills/damage bonuses/resists of any "vet" who can fly a rifter (OFC, assuming they've taken everything to 5).

Assuming you want to be "perfect" at the rifter, that's more like 6 months... Cool (though, admittedly, level 4 across the board is generally considered "very good".

now, let's say you got yourself all those skills in a month... and now you wanna try cruisers... so we throw a cruiser in... (again, assuming we've taken everything to level 4 already) ... takes 4 hours to go from Rifter to Bellicose ... and 8 days to get the Cruiser skill and medium guns to level 4....


the place where the newbies get stuck is wanting the biggest ship really fast.. you can fly a battleship *well* inside of 3 months, maybe less if you ignore some of the "core" skills that don't apply (e.g. the core shield skills if you're primarily flying armour tanks)




Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.01 19:04:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
So, since eve has been around for so long and there's no way that new players will ever be able to catch up with the players that have been around for a while.
Yes they can, because the EVE skill system is designed in such a way that "catching up" in the traditional sense does not really apply and so that, in the EVE sense, it is always possible to catch up.

The only thing new players will have problems "catching up" with is total SP (and not even that is beyond the realm of possibility), but as luck would have it, total SP is a completely pointless stat beyond determining how costly it is to lose your clone.

What new players need more than anything is to learn this and to stop thinking in terms of other class/level/xp-based systems of progression.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:00:00 - [5]
 

Speed it up any further and you just get more people quitting because they get stomped due to lack of experience .. SP/ISK is no where near the most important thing in Eve.

That said, what I could see being awesome was for CCP to start a program where a person no older than three months (close to 'screw this' point) can sign up.
After doing so his training is halted and he is given (temporarily, say 3 days) 25-50M SP to allocate however he chooses.
All the points are removed again at the end of the short period and normal training can resume.

So a person can sacrifice a few days worth of SP to experience what it is like if he continues down the path of righteousness.

PhantomTrojan
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:24:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Ok, so this may be a bit of a retro idea, and may be suggested as a crazy idea.

It seems like now a days most new players in the world of eve don't last long because of the amount of training time it takes to get into a decent spot to make playing tolerable.

So, since eve has been around for so long and there's no way that new players will ever be able to catch up with the players that have been around for a while.

What would ppl think if we gave all new players a certain amount of skill points to apply wherever they see fit?

Now, the amount of skills points offered would be enough to get them headed in a good direction, but not enough to get them mining with exhumers and t2 lasers, but you know, something reasonable.

To make up for it maybe the could give all existing characters those skill points as well.

Again, the amount of skill points given aren't going to be enough to be a game changer for anyone, but enough skill points to knock out a few skills that will help noobs feel like they're in the game, and just a little extra spending money for older players.

The only reason why i'm suggesting such ideas is to bring more players into eve and keep them around.

We all know that the first month of play is the most likely time that a player will leave the game and never come back.
If you give them the skill points to basically take them out of that first month, then it's likely they'll stick around, and most players that quit later on, often come back anyway cause nothing else compares to eve.

in eve is very easy to catch up, because a 500m sp character cant use every skill for a single ship, at one single time hes probably using the 20msp that apply to his ship, all of his other 480m sp dont apply and are useless, more sp dont make you better it only gives you options to change ship, race, etc.

If you can get every skill that apply to a bc to lv 5 under a year you are as competent as a 7 years old character, he cant be better if he is a bc. meaning that in under 1 year you catched up a 7 years old player in some areas.

Woodman2
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:45:00 - [7]
 

In your other thread you suggest being able to buy skill points, I think your ideas may help new players, while the older ones, including me, would quit in droves. Part of the attraction to Eve, at least for me, is the training and the fact that every character is unique. Letting everyone 'catch up' or buy all the skill points their wallets can handle takes away from that.

Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:00:00 - [8]
 

I disagree

when you first start playing you are playing with the newb ship for only a couple of missions and shortly after you are flying other frigates.
the speed that skill points are learned, allows you to get 1 or 2 levels of skill of the skill you know how it does.

the rewards come quick to keep the player entertained as he get a new reward each mission.

For people making their second characters I can see the problem, but they can be playing their main while their alt learns away

phantomshura
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:40:00 - [9]
 

everyone already start with faster earning, i believe its doubled learning speed.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:54:00 - [10]
 

i think they need a new introduction, i stayed with eve when i saw the size of the universe the ships you could fly and everything,
u show noobs battleships freighters and carriers and stuff compared to your shipi was chilling in my dessie when i saw the size of a freighter that undocked with me and i was amazed

things to strive for are important, i think at most some support skills should be removed, like electronics and engineering

Juliette DuBois
Posted - 2011.07.02 02:31:00 - [11]
 

Something like this is going happen at some point, make no mistake.

Jenshae Chiroptera
Posted - 2011.07.02 13:18:00 - [12]
 

Hope it doesn't. Seems fast enough to me and I am not sure I want to play with attention deficient players.

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.07.02 14:45:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Tyme Xandr on 02/07/2011 14:45:11
If noobs didnt think rushing to a battleship would make them contendable then this wouldnt be an issue.

If CCP didnt make so many of the tech 1 frigates and cruisers so utterly useless then this wouldnt be an issue.

Then Gallenteans wouldnt be stuck with the choice of a Tristan, Thorax, Vexxor. Caldari wouldnt be stuck with the choice of a Moa or Caracal. Amarr wouldn't be stuck with the choice of a Punisher or Omen. Minmatar I suppose would still be fine ;) .

Make more of the tier one and two frigates of the tech1 flavor more useful. Simply put.

If noobs would be told if they specialized in frigs for a bit, then cruisers, maybe they wouldnt go out and lose battleships with small guns on them so often - and maybe they would get good at frigs cruisers and go do some PVPing and pirating (which is what honestly hooks many people in EVE).

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.02 16:20:00 - [14]
 

What I mean by giving them some skill points isn't neccessarily give them a bunch of points.

Maybe just give them frigates or cruisers lvl 3 based on their faction and support skills based on their faction like gunnery and maybe some engineering skills.

Just something to make breaking into eve a bit more tolerable.

We were all noobs at one point in time, and our skills at that point in time sucked @ss. We flew around in frigs and cruisers trying to do missions and ratting or mining and other such things and we sucked at it.
Took us so long to kill mission npcs and rats that we were ready to throw in the towel.
The thing about those of us that stuck it out is that we had the motivation to get past that first month.

Some people will say that if they don't have the motivation, then they don't need to play.
I say that if we don't give something to help motivate then the eve community will slowly die out cause no one new is coming in and all the older people are getting bored or tired, or some other reason to quit.

We probably have the smallest community of any MMO, and if CCP wants to close that cap then they're gonna have to offer something to get new players kick started.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.02 17:59:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 02/07/2011 18:03:31

Why? There is no reason you need to do this.. if you set a goal and focus on one thing you can catch anyone in that area even a 2003 player in short order.

CCP already has given a noob booster to sp training in two ways.. the rate is faster at first allowing you to train anything more quickly than before - you start with more sp's than before.

The kind of bonus you propose would be exploited by many who just want to make money off of characters for sale. Unfortunately, this would devalue characters already up for sale..and in fact any characters in the game already.

Finally, giving starting players even more advantage than they have now will in no way guarantee the players will stay longer. The average active stay is 7 months..this is about the same with all mmos.


CEOcat
Gallente
CAT Corp
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:38:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: CEOcat on 02/07/2011 21:40:37
What will happen if ppl start with a bunch of skill point is that they are going to put them into something that sounds cool.

They won't know what the f they are doing and will spend it all on Starbase Defence Management or something.

The system as it is now is. You can get into like a T1 frig and other stuff you can have fun in very fast. It is not a problem. You can PvP and be successfully with 500k sp it is the beauty of EVE...
Running lvl1 missions should be possible on first day skills as well.

But you don't want to give people an instant boost that they can use before they start figuring out what they want to try and what they need to train for it. So the current system is good.

By the way. Perpeetum have a system similar to what you propose. And everyone do get it wrong in the first allocation and everyone use there free re-roll.
I don't want to see skill re-rolls in EVE...


Dallenn
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:02:00 - [17]
 

New players don't lack SP or even isk, they lack clue. Getting them into a good corp or giving them some info otherwise could be worth considering.

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.07.04 01:22:00 - [18]
 

I still feel my idea of revamping tech 1 frigates and cruisers is still the best option. Make tier 1 and 2 frigates as useable as tier three frigates with their own niche. Same for tier 1 and tier 2 cruisers - make them as good as their tier 3 counterparts.

For instance:
Caldari: Frigates
- Bantam: Remains the same.
- Condor: Increase shields from base 274 to 380. Still less than merlin, but its additional speed is the lure. Add one additional missile launcher slot and either nix the turret slot or leave it there. Increase pg by 8 and CPU by 14 to allow fitting a tank and rack of rocket launchers.
- Condor is primarily a probing ship, however adding a high slot will allow for a mixed role as it can give mild combat support. Tank should remain minimal.
- Merlin should be allowed to fit a full rack of hybrids. There is no hybrid frigate platform for caldari despite this being one of their primary weapons. For those who put that time into gunnery they dont really reap the reward until cruisers (depending on what you consider a reward is with hybrids). I remember when I first started playing eve several years ago I didnt bother with turrets as there were leaps between the turret based ships.

I originally intended to look through each factions frigates, but i stopped caring as much as this is not what this topic is about necessarily.

Giving more options for tech 1 frigates and cruisers will give more variety for newer players so they dont rush from frigates, to cruisers, to bc/bs - and will give them better/and-or/varied roles when flying with friends.

Shantie en'Lewarx
Posted - 2011.07.04 07:32:00 - [19]
 

Newbie-friendly eve would need four things, in my opinion:
- longer trial with less restrictions, so new players would get to know the game a little. Everyone knows that for eve, two weeks don't mean a jack.
- safe starting zones (with absolutely no connection to the "outer" world, of course, like, no money transfers, no contracts, no transportation, etc) where newbies could polish their basic navigation/combat skills before entering the big world.
- lowsecs completely overhauled in order to be profitable.
- mining completely overhauled (in this case, removing loot reprocessing would be nice) in order to get rid of bots.

Cedims
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:12:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Juliette DuBois
Something like this is going happen at some point, make no mistake.

I agree, and for the simple reason that EVE, like any other subscription, have a threshold where it will simply reach a peek of sustained subscribers.

The stubborness of CCP (and a lot of current players) keeping EVE as a PvP *only* game is going to set that peek much lower than if the other professions were expanded upon. This will of course not happen, as current opinions is tunneled by such a narrow mindset. These people have stated, on many many occasions, that EVE is a PvP game and will stay so. This is the reason why people that DO like mining and other "boring" professions, eventually stops playing, and that threshold will be reached. (I am NOT saying to remove ANYTHING about PvP, only to expand the rest of EVE.)

I believe that CCP has realized that and is trying to add things like CQ and the DUST 514 to the EVE universe. However, the same state of mind still applies and this will ensure that EVE will not expand into the "allround" type of game that many people thought that EVE was when they started playing. I mean, who's going to like CQ and WIS when as soon as you leave the station, some gankers will still cramp your style because they don't care about these features. They only care about killmails, and their own enjoyment (nothing wrong with that, at all). Here is where the "well, that's EVE" folks chime in, and I see the point. But that doesn't take away the fact that it limits the populus of EVE subscribers.

In the end, the EVE enterprise is about money, so I concur, Juliette DuBois, at some point, absolutely.

"Being narrow minded lead to less options." - Cedims

Cedims
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:24:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
So, since eve has been around for so long and there's no way that new players will ever be able to catch up with the players that have been around for a while.
Yes they can, because the EVE skill system is designed in such a way that "catching up" in the traditional sense does not really apply and so that, in the EVE sense, it is always possible to catch up.

The only thing new players will have problems "catching up" with is total SP (and not even that is beyond the realm of possibility), but as luck would have it, total SP is a completely pointless stat beyond determining how costly it is to lose your clone.

What new players need more than anything is to learn this and to stop thinking in terms of other class/level/xp-based systems of progression.

If that is the case, why are suggestions about selling Skill Points on the market such a bad idea?

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.07.05 09:54:00 - [22]
 

problem of noobs are idiots telling them they cannot do anything without lvl 5 skills

add negative skill training when you are in hi sec

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.05 16:38:00 - [23]
 

Ok, so we all agree that noobs and us as noobs had no idea what we were doing, thus causing these allotted skill points to be spent inappropriately.

OK, but here in lies another problem. Noob players have no idea of anything about eve.
They don't know which faction they want to fly.
They have no idea where they want to go.
They have no idea on anything to expect in eve.

Sure, they have the training scenarios that the game lays out, but that doesn't help you decide on whether you want to fly missile boats, lasers, projectile turrets.
Doesn't help you decide whether you want caldari ships, minmatar, gallente, or amarr.

How about this. CCP has focused of the first 2 weeks of experiencing the game being just getting a feel.

The problem is the noobs aren't getting a feel for the game at all. They're just getting a feel for controls and where your skills are, what buttons do what. What you shouldn't do. What you should do.

If CCP would take and for the 2 weeks of a trial account they send that player to a separate server very similar to the test sever. Only difference is there are 3 systems with 1 station per system.

system 1 will teach you about mining and all the ships and equipment related to it.

system 2 will teach you all about missioning and ratting and all the ships and equipment related to that.

system 3 will teach them all about pvp and the strategies of offense and defense related to pvp.

On this server everyone has max skills. You make no money and you pay no money for any ships or equipment.

There would be tutorials. The tutorials will give you different ships and equipment on each session and in each system related to the tasks of that system.

Now, you spend 3 days in the mining system training. 5 days in the mission system training, then 6 days in the pvp system training.
The player can opt to go back to another system, such as when you get into the pvp system you decide you want to be a mission or mining carebear, you can go back to one of those systems at any time and opt out of the other 1 or 2 system trainings.

After that 2 week period, where you've experienced evertyhing from flying a noob ship to flying a super carrier, then you come back to the main server and have your 2 weeks of faster training time.

This would help noob players understand the basics of eve and how it works and what there part in it is.

Give them the advantage we never had of experiencing ships before they train for them, thus allowing them to decide which faction they want to train and what related skills and so on.

It also gives them the ability to fly high end ships that they can decide they want to gear up towards.

Most noob players don't even know which battleships are in game let alone super carriers and so on.

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2011.07.05 16:54:00 - [24]
 

I can't get your point, when I trained my alt I was pretty happy with the training times, when I trained my main, it seemed even faster... I couldn't learn to use all the modules I get to use as fast as I got to use them threw training SP-s.

It's good that the system doesn't allow "catching up" since it'd be pointless. It's easy to get to fly a ship decently. The only differance then is the pilot skill in piloting the ship. You can practically fly any t1, sub-capital ship very well in one race after 8 months. And that's -really- decently. After that, to get from 'very good' to 'pro', it'll take you 2 years to max out everything, giving you MAYBE 5% bonus to each stat like dps and tanking ability.

That's not long, 8 months is BARELY the amount of time for a newb to learn how to make isk properly. When I was training up when I was starting back in 2008 I had problems getting the isk to try out all the stuff I got to use with the huge amount of SP I had...


King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:05:00 - [25]
 

The idea that new players can never catch up to the old ones is bull. Everyone has to specialize, I'm no better with a jaguar now (in terms of SP) than I was 3 years ago. No matter how much I may want to, I can't train minmatar frigate 6 and I never cared enough to train AF5. There are toons under 6 months that are better skilled with some of the ships I use than I am after 3.5 years. And the reason is they specialized with them while I only gave them a quick look before specializing with something else. I've found that after about a year and a half, my main ships were fully skilled with all lvl5 skills save for resistance spec's at 4, which I still have at 4. All the training I've done since then has just been adding ships I rarely use.

Now what I could accept is a slight buff to the starting skills. When I started playing, the only thing standing between me and t2 small AC's was the AC spec book which I obviously couldn't afford my first couple days. But everything else I trained took ages since I couldn't afford even +2 implants and I was struggling to pay for the learning skills.

Overall skilling up is faster now but I do agree that you basically can't undock for a few hours after you create your character. You just can't use anything. I would support giving all new characters basic stuff like rockets 1 (caldari), propulsion jamming 1, armor repair 1, shield upgrades 1 and so on. It won't have any major effect on how quickly they can skill up long term, but it makes those first few hours after character creation bearable. Being stuck unable to use an armor repairer 1 kinda sucks imho.Laughing

Herpes Sweatrash
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:43:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: phantomshura
everyone already start with faster earning, i believe its doubled learning speed.


I was surprised to find that new characters don't get accelerated skill training up to 1.6mil sp since the removal of learning skills. I guess their reasoning was that anyone with half a brain spent all their 2x training time on learning skills anyway but I think it would be nice to give it back at maybe 1.5x or to a lower sp amount like 1mil perhaps.

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.07.06 03:19:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Herpes Sweatrash
Originally by: phantomshura
everyone already start with faster earning, i believe its doubled learning speed.


I was surprised to find that new characters don't get accelerated skill training up to 1.6mil sp since the removal of learning skills. I guess their reasoning was that anyone with half a brain spent all their 2x training time on learning skills anyway but I think it would be nice to give it back at maybe 1.5x or to a lower sp amount like 1mil perhaps.


Its because you essentially learn at those rates from the max attributes you have now.


 

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