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Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.01 15:58:00 - [31]
 

Im not citing anything but Ill tell you why its a fallacy.

Its a thought experiment based on impossible conditions - that renders it meaningless.

The only way to stop all quantum interactions between 2 active systems is with acceleration, so the gap between them grows faster than the speed of light. Such objects on the far sides of the universe.

Of course achieving such a meta state would make it impossible for the 2 systems to interact again there local state impossible.

Chuffer
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:14:00 - [32]
 

I can't really comment on this because I know nothing about quantum physics and have never studied it. But, I'm going to say this: I know nothing about quantum physics and have never studied it so I can't really comment..

RAW23
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:18:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Im not citing anything but Ill tell you why its a fallacy.

Its a thought experiment based on impossible conditions - that renders it meaningless.

The only way to stop all quantum interactions between 2 active systems is with acceleration, so the gap between them grows faster than the speed of light. Such objects on the far sides of the universe.

Of course achieving such a meta state would make it impossible for the 2 systems to interact again there local state impossible.


I hope you'll forgive me if I still want a source for this other than the assertion of someone I don't know on the interwebz. I have quite a few sources that say the paradox is by no means meaningless so I really want something to set against those.

ko4e
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:20:00 - [34]
 

i think our teacher strike brought alot of students in.
people in this thread is why Wikipedia is useless..lol

Anna Maziarczyk
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:28:00 - [35]
 

OP - well said.

Aracimia Wolfe
Amarr
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:29:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Ghoest
Im not citing anything but Ill tell you why its a fallacy.

Its a thought experiment based on impossible conditions - that renders it meaningless.

The only way to stop all quantum interactions between 2 active systems is with acceleration, so the gap between them grows faster than the speed of light. Such objects on the far sides of the universe.

Of course achieving such a meta state would make it impossible for the 2 systems to interact again there local state impossible.


I hope you'll forgive me if I still want a source for this other than the assertion of someone I don't know on the interwebz. I have quite a few sources that say the paradox is by no means meaningless so I really want something to set against those.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroedingers_cat

Einstein also did a similar thought experiment with a barrel of gunpowder instead of a cat. The point was that it was supposed to demonstrate the oversights of the Quantum theories of the time

Quote:
Schrödinger intended his thought experiment as a discussion of the EPR article, named after its authors—Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen—in 1935.[1] The EPR article highlighted the strange nature of quantum entanglement, which is a characteristic of a quantum state that is a combination of the states of two systems (for example, two subatomic particles), that once interacted but were then separated and are not each in a definite state. The Copenhagen interpretation implies that the state of the two systems undergoes collapse into a definite state when one of the systems is measured. Schrödinger and Einstein exchanged letters about Einstein's EPR article, in the course of which Einstein pointed out that the state of an unstable keg of gunpowder will, after a while, contain a superposition of both exploded and unexploded states

RAW23
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:32:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Aracimia Wolfe
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Ghoest
Im not citing anything but Ill tell you why its a fallacy.

Its a thought experiment based on impossible conditions - that renders it meaningless.

The only way to stop all quantum interactions between 2 active systems is with acceleration, so the gap between them grows faster than the speed of light. Such objects on the far sides of the universe.

Of course achieving such a meta state would make it impossible for the 2 systems to interact again there local state impossible.


I hope you'll forgive me if I still want a source for this other than the assertion of someone I don't know on the interwebz. I have quite a few sources that say the paradox is by no means meaningless so I really want something to set against those.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroedingers_cat

Einstein also did a similar thought experiment with a barrel of gunpowder instead of a cat. The point was that it was supposed to demonstrate the oversights of the Quantum theories of the time

Quote:
Schrödinger intended his thought experiment as a discussion of the EPR article, named after its authors—Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen—in 1935.[1] The EPR article highlighted the strange nature of quantum entanglement, which is a characteristic of a quantum state that is a combination of the states of two systems (for example, two subatomic particles), that once interacted but were then separated and are not each in a definite state. The Copenhagen interpretation implies that the state of the two systems undergoes collapse into a definite state when one of the systems is measured. Schrödinger and Einstein exchanged letters about Einstein's EPR article, in the course of which Einstein pointed out that the state of an unstable keg of gunpowder will, after a while, contain a superposition of both exploded and unexploded states



Laughing

I was asking for a source for the statement that the paradox is meaningless, not for the paradox itself (which I'm pretty familiar with). But I do appreciate the effort you made to find the material for me.

Ariel Nova
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:36:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: ScreenWipe
Originally by: Ranka Mei
the current state of EVE likens that of Schrödinger's cat: both alive and dead, depending on what I will see CCP do next.


Losing 6k players is nothing, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

For us that are staying (supporting CCP), it will mean less lag, less blob fests, less margin trading, etc, etc... There are so many pluses.

see yah ☺/


LOL, 6k accounts might mean better gaming for you, but it doesn't help CCP meet budgets.
I don't think you will see 6k players replace them, they would have showed up when Incarna released.


Ramma Lamma DingDong
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:37:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: ScreenWipe

Losing 6k players is nothing, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

Actually, that's $90,000 a month; or roughly 37 monocles a day. With Hilmar being proud of already having sold 52 monocles, I'd say it's something.


Those accounts will be replaced by new players (who are much more desirable than the rabble rabble rabble that will be leaving) and a good number of them will also return (they always do.)

This also assumes that the 6k number is accurate when it almost certainly is not.

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:40:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Ghoest
Im not citing anything but Ill tell you why its a fallacy.

Its a thought experiment based on impossible conditions - that renders it meaningless.

The only way to stop all quantum interactions between 2 active systems is with acceleration, so the gap between them grows faster than the speed of light. Such objects on the far sides of the universe.

Of course achieving such a meta state would make it impossible for the 2 systems to interact again there local state impossible.


I hope you'll forgive me if I still want a source for this other than the assertion of someone I don't know on the interwebz. I have quite a few sources that say the paradox is by no means meaningless so I really want something to set against those.



If you cant discuss the topic on your own then you probably shouldnt worry about it.

I completely get asking for a citation on facts, complex math etc. But if your understanding of a simple 80 year old though experiment is so limited that instead only trust citations that doesnt say much for you.

Legio Praetor
The Green Machine
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:40:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: ScreenWipe
Losing 6k players is nothing, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

For us that are staying (supporting CCP), it will mean less lag, less blob fests, less margin trading, etc, etc... There are so many pluses.

see yah ☺/


You do realise that you are saying its a good thing people leave the game because CCP cant be bothered to fix all the issues like lag?

Oh and if you think 6k players quitting in this short amount of time is nothing you are really really ignorant.

You sir, have moved the bar on how a person can be utterly clueless.

Thank you ScreenWipe, for demonstrating that even the mentally impaired are able to post on forums.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:43:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: RAW23 on 01/07/2011 16:43:43
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Ghoest
Im not citing anything but Ill tell you why its a fallacy.

Its a thought experiment based on impossible conditions - that renders it meaningless.

The only way to stop all quantum interactions between 2 active systems is with acceleration, so the gap between them grows faster than the speed of light. Such objects on the far sides of the universe.

Of course achieving such a meta state would make it impossible for the 2 systems to interact again there local state impossible.


I hope you'll forgive me if I still want a source for this other than the assertion of someone I don't know on the interwebz. I have quite a few sources that say the paradox is by no means meaningless so I really want something to set against those.



If you cant discuss the topic on your own then you probably shouldnt worry about it.

I completely get asking for a citation on facts, complex math etc. But if your understanding of a simple 80 year old though experiment is so limited that instead only trust citations that doesnt say much for you.


You are asserting a bunch of things as facts. I would just like to know whether they have the status you claim. Having worked with and spoken to a lot of philosophers of science (I'm a philosophy professor) I strongly suspect they do not. I'm more than happy to be convinced but it will take a bit more than the argument you are offering. It will take some evidence in support of your assertions.

Legio Praetor
The Green Machine
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:47:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Ramma Lamma DingDong
Those accounts will be replaced by new players (who are much more desirable than the rabble rabble rabble that will be leaving) and a good number of them will also return (they always do.)

This also assumes that the 6k number is accurate when it almost certainly is not.


So you think that CCP would rather have 1 new (clueless) sub instead of the established players who have a handful of active accounts?

Besides, its not like a good handful of new and eagerly expected games will be released shortly, which might draw people away from EvE for good.

And no, we dont always return. Trust me. Especially not when they cant be bothered to fix their game, nor show their paying customers respect but instead funnels the money into 2 other projects instead of EvE.

In the end, we play eve to have fun, not to be shat on by the developer.

Stephanie Rose
Nos Exigo Effercio
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:48:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: ScreenWipe
Originally by: Ranka Mei
the current state of EVE likens that of Schrödinger's cat: both alive and dead, depending on what I will see CCP do next.


Losing 6k players is nothing, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

For us that are staying (supporting CCP), it will mean less lag, less blob fests, less margin trading, etc, etc... There are so many pluses.

see yah ☺/


If all these people are really leaving, who is getting all their stuff?

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.01 16:49:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: RAW23
Edited by: RAW23 on 01/07/2011 16:43:43
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Ghoest
Im not citing anything but Ill tell you why its a fallacy.

Its a thought experiment based on impossible conditions - that renders it meaningless.

The only way to stop all quantum interactions between 2 active systems is with acceleration, so the gap between them grows faster than the speed of light. Such objects on the far sides of the universe.

Of course achieving such a meta state would make it impossible for the 2 systems to interact again there local state impossible.


I hope you'll forgive me if I still want a source for this other than the assertion of someone I don't know on the interwebz. I have quite a few sources that say the paradox is by no means meaningless so I really want something to set against those.



If you cant discuss the topic on your own then you probably shouldnt worry about it.

I completely get asking for a citation on facts, complex math etc. But if your understanding of a simple 80 year old though experiment is so limited that instead only trust citations that doesnt say much for you.


You are asserting a bunch of things as facts. I would just like to know whether they have the status you claim. Having worked with and spoken to a lot of philosophers of science (I'm a philosophy professor) I strongly suspect they do not. I'm more than happy to be convinced but it will take a bit more than the argument you are offering. It will take some evidence in support of your assertions.



Please list the large number o questionable fact I presented?

Schrodingers cat experiment has unusual results because it is predicated on impossible conditions.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:00:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Please list the large number o questionable fact I presented?

Schrodingers cat experiment has unusual results because it is predicated on impossible conditions.


To begin with I would like some evidence for the assertion that the conditions are impossible in such a way as to make the paradox a meaningless fallacy. Since you seem so sure of this I'm sure you can find at least a few credible scientists or philosophers to back you up. I can certainly find a few who would disagree with you so rather more is needed than your simple assertions in order to be convincing.

Kimochi Sugoii
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:13:00 - [47]
 


Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:13:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Ghoest
Please list the large number o questionable fact I presented?

Schrodingers cat experiment has unusual results because it is predicated on impossible conditions.


To begin with I would like some evidence for the assertion that the conditions are impossible in such a way as to make the paradox a meaningless fallacy. Since you seem so sure of this I'm sure you can find at least a few credible scientists or philosophers to back you up. I can certainly find a few who would disagree with you so rather more is needed than your simple assertions in order to be convincing.


Umm that is the entire substance of what I said - now you are just talking in circles.

When I explained it to you you said I had questionable facts.
When I asked what those questionable facts were you went back to the beginning.

Anyone who claims they are a philosopher should be rather embarrassed to have used such a weak dialectic.

Novak Sarin
Posted - 2011.07.01 18:42:00 - [49]
 

Leaving the philosophical part aside, I agree with OP.

Schroedingers' Cat
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:03:00 - [50]
 

Wait, did someone mention me?

Am I dead or alive?

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:07:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: ScreenWipe
Originally by: Ranka Mei
the current state of EVE likens that of Schrödinger's cat: both alive and dead, depending on what I will see CCP do next.


Losing 6k players is nothing, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

For us that are staying (supporting CCP), it will mean less lag, less blob fests, less margin trading, etc, etc... There are so many pluses.

see yah ☺/

I loled at the '6k players is nothing' part.

Maybe if CCP were Blizzard, that might make sense. But when you're a company with only a single game that is funding two other projects and that game, and you have a pile of debt stacking up... it's a whole different story.

Telion Rethson
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:19:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Schroedingers' Cat
Wait, did someone mention me?

Am I dead or alive?


Both. Or neither. Unless someone's looked in the box, of course.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:25:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Schroedingers' Cat
Wait, did someone mention me?
Am I dead or alive?

We observe you to be still alive, therefore you are.
But now you might not be anymore.
Twisted Evil

Frodrich Adoudel
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:29:00 - [54]
 

I think we need to leave this cat alone before someone calls the ASPCA.

Fallout, lock please?
kthxbye.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.07.02 06:14:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Ghoest
Please list the large number o questionable fact I presented?

Schrodingers cat experiment has unusual results because it is predicated on impossible conditions.


To begin with I would like some evidence for the assertion that the conditions are impossible in such a way as to make the paradox a meaningless fallacy. Since you seem so sure of this I'm sure you can find at least a few credible scientists or philosophers to back you up. I can certainly find a few who would disagree with you so rather more is needed than your simple assertions in order to be convincing.


Umm that is the entire substance of what I said - now you are just talking in circles.

When I explained it to you you said I had questionable facts.
When I asked what those questionable facts were you went back to the beginning.

Anyone who claims they are a philosopher should be rather embarrassed to have used such a weak dialectic.


Rolling Eyes
If you think your 70 word analysis of an important problem is adequate then there is obviously no point trying to have a discussion with you. You have evaded my questions, refused to cite sources or clarify your reasoning a number of times and resorted to ad hominem attacks when your claims have been challenged. Frankly, it looks like you are unable to offer any substantive support for your claims. The reason I am asking for more on the entire substance of what you said is because the entire substance is lacking in depth and clarity. You also misunderstand the force of 'circularity' if you think that going back to the beginning is a problem (no, this does not constitute a circular argument).

LLoyd Thomson
Posted - 2011.07.02 06:24:00 - [56]
 

Came expecting a thread about a cat suffocating in a box, left disappointed.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.02 06:32:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 02/07/2011 06:32:43
I think people who claim to understand quantum physics (including PhD's) are generally full of ****.

Kendra Wilkinson
Posted - 2011.07.02 06:33:00 - [58]
 

even CCP doing experiment with cat, check the CCP CAT after the meeting with the CSM.
the subjet of this experiment was : "does cat can use vanity items after a liter of red wine?"
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

oh sorry it wanst a thread about cat

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.07.02 06:39:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Schrodingers cat is a fallacy nub.


lol, righto

Biomassed everyoneelse
Posted - 2011.07.02 06:44:00 - [60]
 

Hmm...I see your cat, and raise you a dog.

1 dog


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