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blankseplocked Who Moved My Cheese? Eve player base reaction to changes in Incarna
 
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Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:45:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Samroski on 30/06/2011 08:12:11
Eve player base reaction to recent changes (Incarna) in Eve was a classic study in moving cheese. Ref: Who Moved My Cheese by Spencer Johnson. I'm a Haw btw :)

In the story, when the cheese gets moved the characters react thus:

Sniff and Scurry, the mice, had already noted the decrease in supply of cheese. They quickly put on their boots and went out in the maze to find new cheese.

Sniff sniffed around and determined a direction and guided scurry to run ahead. By trial and error and with persistence they eventually found Cheese Station N with a limitless supply of new cheeses.

Hem and Haw, the little people, were shocked when the cheese was moved. They had not noticed the little changes that had preceded. They could not believe this was happening to them.

They kept analysing why the cheese had been moved. They let their beliefs and fears cloud their reaction. They had got used to the constant supply of cheese and feared going out into the maze again.

They figured the cheese may have been moved behind the wall. They started hitting the wall, and eventually made a small hole, but there was no cheese on the other side. Instead of looking elsewhere, they enlarged the hole, with no result.

Haw realized that it was pointless waiting for the old cheese to appear. He laughed at himself and at his fears, and envisioned himself enjoying the best cheeses in the world and decided to set out into the maze to search for them. He had put his boots away, and it took him a while to find them.

Before leaving he tried to reason with Hem. But Hem was still angry at why the cheese had been moved. He refused to leave the security of the cheese station and was convinced that the cheese would reappear.

Haw had a tough time finding new cheese. But he was happy in the search, feeling invigorated and young. He found some small bits of new cheese in a large cheese station, but somebody had already been there. He took a piece to Hem, but Hem would still not look for new cheese.

Eventually Haw found Cheese Station N, his old friends, and the new cheeses which made him very happy. One day he heard the noise of someone approaching. He hoped it was Hem.

Harcosi
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:48:00 - [2]
 

Interesting story.

Snake Scofield
Posted - 2011.06.30 07:52:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Snake Scofield on 30/06/2011 07:57:37
lol Hem & Haw.

My boss made me read that once. Applicable to many facets of life.

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:25:00 - [4]
 

I forgot to mention that this story is in memory of all the stalwarts of Eve who left recently. Hope to see them back.

Some may have left due to the indifference CCP showed to the initial reaction. The root cause though, is change.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:38:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Samroski
I forgot to mention that this story is in memory of all the stalwarts of Eve who left recently. Hope to see them back.

Some may have left due to the indifference CCP showed to the initial reaction. The root cause though, is change.

No, it isn't. I am not so immature to say "this is different and therefore bad."
The actual reasonS (there are several) are clearly, rationally, and repeatedly explained in many, many posts on these forums.
Please do not presume to speak for me or the 3000+ other players who have unsubbed following Incarna.

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:54:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Samroski

Please do not presume to speak for me or the 3000+ other players who have unsubbed following Incarna.

I speak for myself. This is my opinion.

I also unsubbed 6 accounts and may let another run out. I have more difficulty with change than most. I was one of the first protesters at Jita. In trying to find new ways to protest I even got a GM warning.

All my sympathies are with those who left at this sad time in Eve.

Chuffer
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:55:00 - [7]
 

That's a condescending story to explain a simple concept, and if my boss tried to explain things to me in such childish ways I'd be sorely tempted to tell him / her to **** off and die.

But lets take it at face value for a minute... To me the story tries to put a positive spin on change, that change should be embraced as an opportunity for improvement. So those that have left EVE because of recent changes would take the place of Hem.

BUT it can also be flipped. Perhaps its those of us that remain here, beating our heads against the wall to make small holes, but finding only pain and emptiness, that are actually Hem. Its those that have left the game already to find more cheese that are the better.

So who's who?

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:58:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Samroski
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Please do not presume to speak for me or the 3000+ other players who have unsubbed following Incarna.

I speak for myself. This is my opinion.

I also unsubbed 6 accounts and may let another run out. I have more difficulty with change than most. I was one of the first protesters at Jita. In trying to find new ways to protest I even got a GM warning.

All my sympathies are with those who left at this sad time in Eve.

Fair enough. The tone and title of the thread suggested otherwise Embarassed

I concur with the poster above me - if my boss tried to tell me this story to explain such a concept I'd be pretty insulted too ugh

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:02:00 - [9]
 

Fairly amusing read, but irrelevant. Just as your face.

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Samroski
Edited by: Samroski on 30/06/2011 08:12:11
Eve player base reaction to recent changes (Incarna) in Eve was a classic study in moving cheese. Ref: Who Moved My Cheese by Spencer Johnson. I'm a Haw btw :)

In the story, when the cheese gets moved the characters react thus:

Sniff and Scurry, the mice, had already noted the decrease in supply of cheese. They quickly put on their boots and went out in the maze to find new cheese.

Sniff sniffed around and determined a direction and guided scurry to run ahead. By trial and error and with persistence they eventually found Cheese Station N with a limitless supply of new cheeses.

Hem and Haw, the little people, were shocked when the cheese was moved. They had not noticed the little changes that had preceded. They could not believe this was happening to them.

They kept analysing why the cheese had been moved. They let their beliefs and fears cloud their reaction. They had got used to the constant supply of cheese and feared going out into the maze again.

They figured the cheese may have been moved behind the wall. They started hitting the wall, and eventually made a small hole, but there was no cheese on the other side. Instead of looking elsewhere, they enlarged the hole, with no result.

Haw realized that it was pointless waiting for the old cheese to appear. He laughed at himself and at his fears, and envisioned himself enjoying the best cheeses in the world and decided to set out into the maze to search for them. He had put his boots away, and it took him a while to find them.

Before leaving he tried to reason with Hem. But Hem was still angry at why the cheese had been moved. He refused to leave the security of the cheese station and was convinced that the cheese would reappear.

Haw had a tough time finding new cheese. But he was happy in the search, feeling invigorated and young. He found some small bits of new cheese in a large cheese station, but somebody had already been there. He took a piece to Hem, but Hem would still not look for new cheese.

Eventually Haw found Cheese Station N, his old friends, and the new cheeses which made him very happy. One day he heard the noise of someone approaching. He hoped it was Hem.


Is your name Eric Cantona and do you have a degree in talking sh!t.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTq6aApCBnA

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.06.30 09:49:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: ExcalibursTemplar
Originally by: Samroski
Edited by: Samroski on 30/06/2011 08:12:11
Eve player base reaction to recent changes (Incarna) in Eve was a classic study in moving cheese. Ref: Who Moved My Cheese by Spencer Johnson. I'm a Haw btw :)

In the story, when the cheese gets moved the characters react thus:

Sniff and Scurry, the mice, had already noted the decrease in supply of cheese. They quickly put on their boots and went out in the maze to find new cheese.

Sniff sniffed around and determined a direction and guided scurry to run ahead. By trial and error and with persistence they eventually found Cheese Station N with a limitless supply of new cheeses.

Hem and Haw, the little people, were shocked when the cheese was moved. They had not noticed the little changes that had preceded. They could not believe this was happening to them.

They kept analysing why the cheese had been moved. They let their beliefs and fears cloud their reaction. They had got used to the constant supply of cheese and feared going out into the maze again.

They figured the cheese may have been moved behind the wall. They started hitting the wall, and eventually made a small hole, but there was no cheese on the other side. Instead of looking elsewhere, they enlarged the hole, with no result.

Haw realized that it was pointless waiting for the old cheese to appear. He laughed at himself and at his fears, and envisioned himself enjoying the best cheeses in the world and decided to set out into the maze to search for them. He had put his boots away, and it took him a while to find them.

Before leaving he tried to reason with Hem. But Hem was still angry at why the cheese had been moved. He refused to leave the security of the cheese station and was convinced that the cheese would reappear.

Haw had a tough time finding new cheese. But he was happy in the search, feeling invigorated and young. He found some small bits of new cheese in a large cheese station, but somebody had already been there. He took a piece to Hem, but Hem would still not look for new cheese.

Eventually Haw found Cheese Station N, his old friends, and the new cheeses which made him very happy. One day he heard the noise of someone approaching. He hoped it was Hem.


Is your name Eric Cantona and do you have a degree in talking sh!t.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTq6aApCBnA


Best. Quote. Ever. That man is ****ing epic. Very Happy

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 10:59:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Chuffer

BUT it can also be flipped. Perhaps its those of us that remain here, beating our heads against the wall to make small holes, but finding only pain and emptiness, that are actually Hem. Its those that have left the game already to find more cheese that are the better.
So who's who?

On reflection, I agree. I think I am Hem, not Haw. Persisting with a couple of accounts in hope for the cheese to appear. Not seeing the warning signs. Need to look for new cheese, but still in denial.

Stories told in this simple way are easy to relate to, as everyone has their own unique cheese. My summary obviously does not do justice to the original. I read it from 2 perspectives of cheese, and each sentence meant something slightly different for each type of cheese.

I can understand feeling insulted by the simple tone. Felt the same way when I started the original :)

Jak'rat
Agrabah Academy
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:06:00 - [13]
 

Surely EVE is more about learning to smuggle cheese through gatecamps ? :P

And sheesh, you folks getting on your high horse and feeling patronised and outraged about a "childish" story, go get hold of a copy of the Tao of Pooh (as in A.A.Milne not some fecal fetish) and take some delight in simple abstract ideas.

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:08:00 - [14]
 

I like the analogy but you really have to say what your cheese is when you pick a character. Is your cheese the features we have in EVE, making the story one about change in EVE and dealing with it? Or is the old cheese your EVE experience that got taken away, the new cheeses are different games, and cheese station N is the one your friends end up playing?

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:11:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri

Fair enough. The tone and title of the thread suggested otherwise

Reading the story may help in categorizing the player base reaction into 4 behaviour types.

Apparently the story has been used successfully to help workers accept change. I suppose it depends on how the story is told and how well the discussion afterwards is facilitated.

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:18:00 - [16]
 

what utter *******s, no connection to current situtation as they don´t know who or why the cheese was moved, we eve players DO KNOW.


OP is fail on so many levels, eve players are smart, we adapt and abuse, those yelling do so because of lies and betrayal because CCP´s words in the past that have kept us playing have quite frankly been exposed as FRAUDULENT.


Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Saving Face
I like the analogy but you really have to say what your cheese is when you pick a character. Is your cheese the features we have in EVE, making the story one about change in EVE and dealing with it? Or is the old cheese your EVE experience that got taken away, the new cheeses are different games, and cheese station N is the one your friends end up playing?

Everyone has their own cheese in Eve. As long as you get your cheese you are happy.

Fortunately Eve itself is a type of cheese in your life, and if you are not getting enough... best to move on.

Unlikely to find old friends and new cheese in the same place, I agree. But that should not stop you from looking for new cheese.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:21:00 - [18]
 

People see me argue against micro transactions. And they see me say that I do not like micro transactions.

Some see a connection, and they accuse me that I argue against micro transactions, because I do not like them.

Say "cheese" if you are one of them.

Chuffer
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:29:00 - [19]
 

Its a fine illustration for a certain age group, albeit quite a young one.

My cheese comes in the form of Guild Wars 2, I know it will appear, I just need to be patient. In the mean time I have this persisting headache from the big EVE shaped wall. Until this moment I thought "it helps pass the time while I wait". But now I'm not so sure, right now EVE feels like having a second job that I have to pay for.

There are some nice bits of cheese just around the corner though, an example being deus ex: human revolution. So now I'm wondering whether its better to save my sub fee (and head) for a month or so and buy this instead. Cheese for thought.

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:31:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
what utter *******s, no connection to current situtation as they don´t know who or why the cheese was moved, we eve players DO KNOW.


OP is fail on so many levels, eve players are smart, we adapt and abuse, those yelling do so because of lies and betrayal because CCP´s words in the past that have kept us playing have quite frankly been exposed as FRAUDULENT.



One of the morals of the story is not to over-analyse who or why the cheese moved. More important to note the warning signs of cheese depletion, and be ready to find new cheese.

There are 4 types of player reaction described in the story above. The Eve player base behaviour you describe fits into the "Haw" category.

Tugrath Akers
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:40:00 - [21]
 

Did the cheese melt because I tried to run 2 incarna clients?

Rex Liberium
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:46:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Rex Liberium on 30/06/2011 11:47:02
Originally by: Samroski
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
what utter *******s, no connection to current situtation as they don´t know who or why the cheese was moved, we eve players DO KNOW.


OP is fail on so many levels, eve players are smart, we adapt and abuse, those yelling do so because of lies and betrayal because CCP´s words in the past that have kept us playing have quite frankly been exposed as FRAUDULENT.



One of the morals of the story is not to over-analyse who or why the cheese moved. More important to note the warning signs of cheese depletion, and be ready to find new cheese.

There are 4 types of player reaction described in the story above. The Eve player base behaviour you describe fits into the "Haw" category.
To keep it within your parable.

The cheese has not yet moved.

We are simply smelling the cheese and notice someone is actively trying to poison this cheese.

Some even have allready left for other cheese before the cheese has moved.

Because the poison is MT for non-vanity items.

If you like poisoned cheese stay here in this same station.
If you like slightly different unpoisoned cheese go here.

Trying to understand trends in life through dumbed down stories with set parameters is not really the right way to go about it in my opinion.

Rapyract
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:51:00 - [23]
 

According to the Wikipedia article linked by OP, one of the character writes his "learnings" (blech!) on a wall, including:

"Monitor Change
Smell The Cheese Often So You Know When It Is Getting Old
Adapt To Change Quickly
The Quicker You Let Go Of Old Cheese, The Sooner You Can Enjoy New Cheese"

Anyone else smell over-ripe skyr in the air?

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:55:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 30/06/2011 12:12:16
Originally by: Samroski
One of the morals of the story is not to over-analyse who or why the cheese moved. More important to note the warning signs of cheese depletion, and be ready to find new cheese.

There are 4 types of player reaction described in the story above. The Eve player base behaviour you describe fits into the "Haw" category.

It really, really does. In at least this situation, I think I was a bit of a Scurry or Sniff- not sure which, but probably the Scurry. I tend to see and understand the changes mentioned in the devBlogs and I am generally prepared to see sub-par content addition, because I actually read that it was going to be sub-par instead of assumed that everything awesome was going to be included (Captain's Quarters is a perfect example).

Now, the leaked documentation aspect was a completely different situation. Nobody could really see that coming, to be honest. However, I've been taking a stance that there's way too many probabilities with respect to it- I find it perfectly reasonable that Zulu was telling the truth that it was merely the corporation hashing things out, whether the writers of each point of view believed in the side or not (and in that case, the newsletter could be CCP observing how we-todd-ed that plan would be). I do not however think that's the only answer, as it could just as easily be a direct look at what direction they intend to take. That's the thing- I'm not seeing enough, for me at least, to say for certain one way or another.

Another thing I note is that we only got that newsletter, and even that one newsletter was apparently cut up and delivered piecemeal in such a way to provoke the response we have seen. I find this rather suspicious, personally. However, that doesn't take away the validity of the fear that what was outlined would come to pass. Suffice to say, we have no way of knowing if the next issue of 'Fearless' went and reaffirmed CCP's stance against game-changing Micro-Transactions. Nor do we know if it showed them further embracing the concept. Or if there was another internal publication that did either of those things.

These doubts are why I have remained mostly neutral on the issue in question. Maybe I still am a Scurry of some sort- personally, I don't care, since my boss actually forced this story down my throat somewhat recently and, though I have a good coworker who stands by the writer of the story, he also thinks our boss wasn't suggesting it for our benefit, so much as to try and make us complacent in the face of change, regardless of whether it was good or bad. I don't think she succeeded.
Originally by: Rex Liberium
To keep it within your parable.

The cheese has not yet moved.

We are simply smelling the cheese and notice someone is actively trying to poison this cheese.

Some even have allready left for other cheese before the cheese has moved.

Because the poison is MT for non-vanity items.

If you like poisoned cheese stay here in this same station.
If you like slightly different unpoisoned cheese go here.

Trying to understand trends in life through dumbed down stories with set parameters is not really the right way to go about it in my opinion.

Heh... I like your analogy- yes, it has yet to be moved, but it is actively being poisoned (whether that someone is CCP or the people who leaked Fearless and subsequently the Hilmar emails in just the right way... well, refer to the rest of my post).

I already play plenty of other games, mind. This one just was nice to play with friends. May still be, CSM/CCP-willing.

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:08:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Samroski on 30/06/2011 12:11:19
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh

Maybe I still am a Scurry of some sort- personally, I don't care, since my boss actually forced this story down my throat somewhat recently and, though I have a good coworker who stands by the writer of the story, he also thinks our boss wasn't suggesting it for our benefit, so much as to try and make us complacent in the face of change, regardless of whether it was good or bad. I don't think she succeeded.

Change may not necessarily be for good, and thus should not be blindly embraced.

This is the dilemma that players face. Many feel the change is not good for their cheese. CCP think otherwise and appear to be after a different cheese. Should the players lose faith in CCP to deliver their cheese, they are likely to Haw elsewhere.

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:22:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Rex Liberium

Trying to understand trends in life through dumbed down stories with set parameters is not really the right way to go about it in my opinion.

Some of us are willing to be slow poisoned in the hope that the poison will run out, or at least stop getting added to our cheese :)

Many dumbed down stories are sufficiently vague, and let you take your own meaning out of them.

The real condescending part of this book is not the actual story, but the introduction and the discussion afterwards. Even though the discussion afterwards is worth reading for the real life examples.

The story itself won me over from the second paragraph.

Rex Liberium
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:35:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Samroski
Originally by: Rex Liberium

Trying to understand trends in life through dumbed down stories with set parameters is not really the right way to go about it in my opinion.

Some of us are willing to be slow poisoned in the hope that the poison will run out, or at least stop getting added to our cheese :)

Many dumbed down stories are sufficiently vague, and let you take your own meaning out of them.

The real condescending part of this book is not the actual story, but the introduction and the discussion afterwards. Even though the discussion afterwards is worth reading for the real life examples.

The story itself won me over from the second paragraph.


I'll try to get my hands on it, to form a more informed opinion :)

Mithrasith
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:39:00 - [28]
 

While I give you +1 for the effort, your analogy doesnt really work in this situation (as one of the vets who has cancelled his accounts and will not be returning).

The Mouse and Cheese analogy largely pretains to the workplace - the cheese being money, or goods that are needed to survive.

I dont need EVE to survive.

The real heart of the issue is CCP's complete lack of respect for its player base, and their continuing deceptive attitude towards the EVE Online community. The heart of the issue is the following:

-I dont like being called a "Golden Goose". Im not a f'ing goose, Im a person, and someone who WAS invested in your game. I dont like being referred to as "the sucker" or your "sugar daddy", or your perpetual egg layer that you get to cash in on so that you can become richer

-That I as a player am funding OTHER GAMES, resources that SHOULD be spent on FIXING primary Bugs, issues and balance content in EVE that has been outstanding for a VERY LONG TIME. In addition, I dont like the fact that it is very clear to me now that what I suspected to be occuring was occuring (which CCP denied) - namely that you were adding shiney new content to attract subs so that you could fund the development of OTHER games, rather than fixing issues in your primary game

-The following comment from Zulu "I hope I‘ve addressed your concerns and cleared up a lot of the issues you‘re having. We‘ll continue monitoring the forums and other communications channels and pick up and reply if there are concerns not covered by this blog.
- They arent my issues dip sh*t they are YOUR F*CKING ISSUES. Someone seriously needs to demote Zulu back to a grunt coding position or something, this isnt the first time he has stepped on the player base and said something stupid. But they wont. Why? This is CCP's attitude towards its player base.

CCP is NOT going to change their attitudes. Its only going to get worse. They have their own Agenda, and they will treat you like crap, provide sub-par garbage for you to eat, and the vast majority of the player base will go on to eat it over and over again (which blows my mind).

For me, they cant un-do this. There is no possible way other than Hillmar stepping down and them doing a complete re-org of the company, which wont happen.

So no, it has NOTHING to do with cheese. As I said, I dont NEED EVE to survive. I just want to remind the other players of what the ACTUAL issue is before they completely forget (which most will), and provide some foreshadowing for you that this will only get worse.




Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:54:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Samroski on 30/06/2011 12:59:22
Originally by: Mithrasith
While I give you +1 for the effort, your analogy stuff
I dont need EVE to survive.
stuff


True. Eve is your cheese that has turned sour. Seems like you are ready to look for new cheese.

Edit: Cheese can be anything from a relationship, peace, spiritual happiness, job satisfaction, money, women, cars. Whatever you desire in life.


 

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