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Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:08:00 - [1]
 

Will a supercapital explosion radius nerf hurt supercapitals in their intended role? I'm thinking that perhaps if supercarrier citadel torp explosion velocity was bumped up to 10-12 km which translates to roughly 20% of the dps they currently inflict on a carrier sized hull, it might possible lead to a resurgence of large-scale lowsec carrier battles.

Supercapitals were CCPs solution to massive nullsec battles. However, do you think they are unbalanced for lowsec?

The issue with supercapitals is their ability to eviscerate lowsec carrier fleets. If your carrier fleet is dropped by a larger capital fleet you still have a chance and can still get away courtesy of FALCON and other valid tactics. However, if you are dropped by a supercapital fleet, your pointed carriers are as good as dead. Because people are less willing to escalate from conventional subcap to a capital level, we see alot less capital-centric pvp in lowsec, ala Rnk, nowadays.

If supercapitals were to be adjusted for explosion radius, we'd see alot more of such battles, meaning more turnover for capital ships, good for both pvpers and capital builders alike. Still, if sufficient supercapitals turn up, those said carriers will die.

Note that this is not a discussion regarding EHP, remote ECM bursts, ECM immunity of the supercapitals. Those bonuses are appropriate for a hull of that expense.

This thread will of course not be looked kindly upon by a great many supercapital pilots, myself included, however it would be good to see all points of view.

voiddragon
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:12:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: voiddragon on 29/06/2011 19:15:33
Super capitals are overpowered, yep. :P

Seriously, it's like something you joke about.

"Hey guys, let's make a carrier that's like a normal carrier but it has 20 times the DPS, has the chance to jam all ships in a 30km radius, is immune to all electronic warfare and can survive a fleet of subcaps when logging off"

edit: As for your explosion radius idea... I don't see why a 20% dps decrease would be effective for balancing them. They would still be able to 'eviscerate' capital fleets and the dreadnought would still be useless.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:18:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: voiddragon
Super capitals are overpowered, yep. :P

Seriously, it's like something you joke about.

"Hey guys, let's make a carrier that's like a normal carrier but it has 20 times the DPS, has the chance to jam all ships in a 30km radius, is immune to all electronic warfare and can survive a fleet of subcaps when logging off"


My intention in this thread is not to say they are overpowered but rather that they pretty much killed off a certain type of warfare which is... Well... fun.

Other people find killing jump freighters and capitals at cyno gens and jump bridges fun.

Others find nullsec supercap warfare fun as well. These are all valid ways in which a supercap can be used.

However, I would like to see whether all these can be preserved while reopening up room for a form of gameplay that used to exist before the fighterbomber.

voiddragon
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:25:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
Originally by: voiddragon
Super capitals are overpowered, yep. :P

Seriously, it's like something you joke about.

"Hey guys, let's make a carrier that's like a normal carrier but it has 20 times the DPS, has the chance to jam all ships in a 30km radius, is immune to all electronic warfare and can survive a fleet of subcaps when logging off"


My intention in this thread is not to say they are overpowered but rather that they pretty much killed off a certain type of warfare which is... Well... fun.

Other people find killing jump freighters and capitals at cyno gens and jump bridges fun.

Others find nullsec supercap warfare fun as well. These are all valid ways in which a supercap can be used.

However, I would like to see whether all these can be preserved while reopening up room for a form of gameplay that used to exist before the fighterbomber.


Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. They need to bring back the dreadnought if we are ever going to see capital fleets useful again. Super capitals need to be nerfed in someway that they're not 20times more powerful than than their counterpart and can be taken down in a reasonable amount of time by sub capitals and capital fleets.

I'm not saying revert them back to what they used to be, but right now they're overpowered and an explosion radius decrease won't help with that. Atleast, that's my opinion.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:36:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: voiddragon
Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
Originally by: voiddragon
Super capitals are overpowered, yep. :P

Seriously, it's like something you joke about.

"Hey guys, let's make a carrier that's like a normal carrier but it has 20 times the DPS, has the chance to jam all ships in a 30km radius, is immune to all electronic warfare and can survive a fleet of subcaps when logging off"


My intention in this thread is not to say they are overpowered but rather that they pretty much killed off a certain type of warfare which is... Well... fun.

Other people find killing jump freighters and capitals at cyno gens and jump bridges fun.

Others find nullsec supercap warfare fun as well. These are all valid ways in which a supercap can be used.

However, I would like to see whether all these can be preserved while reopening up room for a form of gameplay that used to exist before the fighterbomber.


Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. They need to bring back the dreadnought if we are ever going to see capital fleets useful again. Super capitals need to be nerfed in someway that they're not 20times more powerful than than their counterpart and can be taken down in a reasonable amount of time by sub capitals and capital fleets.

I'm not saying revert them back to what they used to be, but right now they're overpowered and an explosion radius decrease won't help with that. Atleast, that's my opinion.


I agree with your point on the dread. However I'm not as concerned with killing them as with their offensive capabilities. After all, survivability is one of their selling points and owing to their ISK cost, if they lacked GTFOability, chances are you won't see alot of solo pilots using them.

Strecs Moliko
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:50:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Strecs Moliko on 29/06/2011 19:55:29
Introduce attack-able subsystems on supercaps imo.

Next put in Tech3 frigs or Tech2 Tier 3 battleships that have ship bonuses to damaging super cap subsystems. To add in balance make these new ships like interdicters (flying coffins). The end result making supercaps need an escort fleet to prevent subcap ships from disabling them in short order.

Sub system examples may include
Engins
Warp Drive
Jump Drive
Drone bay (can no longer recall or release new drones)
DD
Titan weapons (one system per gun/missile)
Targeting aray

The more vital the system the more HP it would have.

Repairable in space by friendly ships. (carriers and logistics only? Maybe just carriers? Have to be worked out on sisy)

My two cents anyway =D

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:54:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Strecs Moliko
Introduce attack-able subsystems on supercaps imo.

Next put in Tech3 frigs or Tech2 Tier 3 battleships that have a mechanic that disrupts supercaps or ship bonuses to moduals that disrupt supercaps. To add in balance make these new ships like interdicters (flying coffins). The end result making supercaps need an escort fleet to prevent subcap ships from disabling them.

Sub system examples may include
Engins
Warp Drive
Jump Drive
Drone bay (can no longer recall or release new drones)
DD
Titan weapons (one system per gun/missile)
Targeting aray

The more vital the system the more HP it would have.

Repairable in space by friendly ships. (carriers and logistics only? Maybe just carriers? Have to be worked out on sisy)

My two cents anyway =D



Seems like alot of work when there could be a simpler change out there.

Still, don't get me wrong, +1 for the intriguing ideas. It reminds me alot of homeworld...

voiddragon
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:54:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
Originally by: voiddragon
Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
Originally by: voiddragon
Super capitals are overpowered, yep. :P

Seriously, it's like something you joke about.

"Hey guys, let's make a carrier that's like a normal carrier but it has 20 times the DPS, has the chance to jam all ships in a 30km radius, is immune to all electronic warfare and can survive a fleet of subcaps when logging off"


My intention in this thread is not to say they are overpowered but rather that they pretty much killed off a certain type of warfare which is... Well... fun.

Other people find killing jump freighters and capitals at cyno gens and jump bridges fun.

Others find nullsec supercap warfare fun as well. These are all valid ways in which a supercap can be used.

However, I would like to see whether all these can be preserved while reopening up room for a form of gameplay that used to exist before the fighterbomber.


Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. They need to bring back the dreadnought if we are ever going to see capital fleets useful again. Super capitals need to be nerfed in someway that they're not 20times more powerful than than their counterpart and can be taken down in a reasonable amount of time by sub capitals and capital fleets.

I'm not saying revert them back to what they used to be, but right now they're overpowered and an explosion radius decrease won't help with that. Atleast, that's my opinion.


I agree with your point on the dread. However I'm not as concerned with killing them as with their offensive capabilities. After all, survivability is one of their selling points and owing to their ISK cost, if they lacked GTFOability, chances are you won't see alot of solo pilots using them.


I don't want to reduce their survivability either as it encourages players to field them a lot more. What I currently don't like is that super carriers can actually log off with 50 sub capitals on them and get away with it.

I would like to see their buffer decreased, but perhaps increase their RR effectiveness so that they will be vulnerable alone, but tough in a group and this should also bring more carriers onto the field.

Now if dreadnoughts would become excellent capital ship killers, this would bring them back. However, the last thing I want to see is dreadnoughts getting even more DPS though and we have to remember these changes will resonate through wormhole space as well so they have to be ineffective against sub capitals.

Finally... doomsday... An I win button on 50 ships is over powered, it's one capital killed every 12 seconds. I wouldn't know how to balance it.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:54:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Strecs Moliko
Introduce attack-able subsystems on supercaps imo.

Next put in Tech3 frigs or Tech2 Tier 3 battleships that have a mechanic that disrupts supercaps or ship bonuses to moduals that disrupt supercaps. To add in balance make these new ships like interdicters (flying coffins). The end result making supercaps need an escort fleet to prevent subcap ships from disabling them.

Sub system examples may include
Engins
Warp Drive
Jump Drive
Drone bay (can no longer recall or release new drones)
DD
Titan weapons (one system per gun/missile)
Targeting aray

The more vital the system the more HP it would have.

Repairable in space by friendly ships. (carriers and logistics only? Maybe just carriers? Have to be worked out on sisy)

My two cents anyway =D



taking Homeworld 2 approach:


carriers and dreads would only have their engines and warp drive targettable.

supercaps would have the whole 9 yards.

Strecs Moliko
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:00:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Strecs Moliko on 29/06/2011 20:01:19
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Strecs Moliko
Introduce attack-able subsystems on supercaps imo.

Next put in Tech3 frigs or Tech2 Tier 3 battleships that have a mechanic that disrupts supercaps or ship bonuses to moduals that disrupt supercaps. To add in balance make these new ships like interdicters (flying coffins). The end result making supercaps need an escort fleet to prevent subcap ships from disabling them.

Sub system examples may include
Engins
Warp Drive
Jump Drive
Drone bay (can no longer recall or release new drones)
DD
Titan weapons (one system per gun/missile)
Targeting aray

The more vital the system the more HP it would have.

Repairable in space by friendly ships. (carriers and logistics only? Maybe just carriers? Have to be worked out on sisy)

My two cents anyway =D



taking Homeworld 2 approach:


carriers and dreads would only have their engines and warp drive targettable.

supercaps would have the whole 9 yards.


Not sure if it would work as a counter to a supercap blob though =(

But it would make you think twice about hot dropping one without an escort.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:01:00 - [11]
 

Still seems like something to be implemented further down the road given that it would involve some gameplay changes.

I think I'll go find my copy of Homeworld.

Strecs Moliko
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:04:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
Still seems like something to be implemented further down the road given that it would involve some gameplay changes.

I think I'll go find my copy of Homeworld.


It is a little pie in the sky I admit.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:09:00 - [13]
 

We're going a little bit sideways here.

But say if you could tweak those ships, any ideas without introducing new gameplay elements?

Strecs Moliko
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:18:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
We're going a little bit sideways here.

But say if you could tweak those ships, any ideas without introducing new gameplay elements?


Hard to do without putting something new in but first thing I would do is remove the ability to cloak. Let me brain storm with my corp a bit and get back to you.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.30 00:43:00 - [15]
 

Bump for more ideas

Cancel Align NOW
Posted - 2011.06.30 01:00:00 - [16]
 

Make the fighter-bomber orbit elliptical so that they cross within smart-bomb radius.

Amber Villaneous
Posted - 2011.06.30 01:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: voiddragon
it's one capital killed every 12 seconds.


Are you sure you play EVE?

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.30 01:15:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
Will a supercapital explosion radius nerf hurt supercapitals in their intended role?


indeed they will. As evidenced by the outrage towards other recent vanity changes, i would bet there will be many tears shed over this, and any other non-gameplay changes.

voiddragon
Posted - 2011.06.30 02:40:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Amber Villaneous
Originally by: voiddragon
it's one capital killed every 12 seconds.


Are you sure you play EVE?


Can you read?

Yabba Addict
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:02:00 - [20]
 

Just nerf em in losec like titans, no FB support, no targeted ecm burst, no ecm invuln. suddenly you'll see carrier fights in losec again

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:19:00 - [21]
 

Bump for more

baltec1
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:28:00 - [22]
 

Cut down deployable fighters and bombers to 5.

Mr Blue
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:33:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Mr Blue on 30/06/2011 12:36:49

nerf carriers. they was never supposed to be a the ultimate dps/hauler/logistic mobile......see what I did? 8)

also 2-3 carrier can tank a singel supercarrier easy.(a triage carrier/pimp fit archon/chimera can prob do it solo) Thats 3bill vs 20b. add 2-3 hics and you got a supercarrier thats eventually gonna die unless he logs off:P


Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.30 12:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Mr Blue
Edited by: Mr Blue on 30/06/2011 12:36:49

nerf carriers. they was never supposed to be a the ultimate dps/hauler/logistic mobile......see what I did? 8)

also 2-3 carrier can tank a singel supercarrier easy.(a triage carrier/pimp fit archon/chimera can prob do it solo) Thats 3bill vs 20b. add 2-3 hics and you got a supercarrier thats eventually gonna die unless he logs off:P




Supercapital pilots know this risk well and they NEVER do a risky solo drop without backup. And they will log off.

Twisted Girl
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.30 13:06:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Twisted Girl on 30/06/2011 13:23:27
Confirming flying supercaps make you able to predict the future and spawn 150 buddys everytime your in trouble out of thin air.

on a serious note. just double agro timer. that and boost peoples balls and you might see some more dead supers.

Its not my fault people are so damn slow and cowardly. Last time I waited for a "supercap trap" from Caldari faction warfare people I sat on their pos incapping mods for 1 damn hour, listeting to their yadayada on vent/ingamechannels and they still didnt get "enough" people in fleet/hics and whatnot.
Seems the fear factor is so high that you cant do it with 15-16 dreads and whatnot.(atleast they didnt)

I see ******ed supercap pilots doing stupid things every week, but people is too slow/lack balls. all you need is 2-3 half compitent hics and a few logistic/carrier pilot and vola. after that all you gonna need is dps.
If you find yourself outblobbed later anyways, well then no supercap nerf gonna help you anyways because even if you nerfed supers down to half across the board I bet you still would get people crying about not been able to kill them(because they are incompitent).

Also take a look at eve-killboard , besides few Pl, maybe some purple helmet warriors I rarly see anyone accually using supers besides randomly gank of a carrier with a singel super whoring on the mail. 50% of the supers in eve is prob unstubbed/inactive, of the 50% left 30% is pure ratting supers that never seen combat, and most of the rest is 0.0 fleet fight supers. The chances to meet a super in low sec is pretty small unless you fall asleep on a gate to be honest.

Strecs Moliko
Posted - 2011.06.30 19:34:00 - [26]
 

*bump*

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.30 21:07:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Twisted Girl
Edited by: Twisted Girl on 30/06/2011 13:23:27
Confirming flying supercaps make you able to predict the future and spawn 150 buddys everytime your in trouble out of thin air.

on a serious note. just double agro timer. that and boost peoples balls and you might see some more dead supers.

Its not my fault people are so damn slow and cowardly. Last time I waited for a "supercap trap" from Caldari faction warfare people I sat on their pos incapping mods for 1 damn hour, listeting to their yadayada on vent/ingamechannels and they still didnt get "enough" people in fleet/hics and whatnot.
Seems the fear factor is so high that you cant do it with 15-16 dreads and whatnot.(atleast they didnt)

I see ******ed supercap pilots doing stupid things every week, but people is too slow/lack balls. all you need is 2-3 half compitent hics and a few logistic/carrier pilot and vola. after that all you gonna need is dps.
If you find yourself outblobbed later anyways, well then no supercap nerf gonna help you anyways because even if you nerfed supers down to half across the board I bet you still would get people crying about not been able to kill them(because they are incompitent).

Also take a look at eve-killboard , besides few Pl, maybe some purple helmet warriors I rarly see anyone accually using supers besides randomly gank of a carrier with a singel super whoring on the mail. 50% of the supers in eve is prob unstubbed/inactive, of the 50% left 30% is pure ratting supers that never seen combat, and most of the rest is 0.0 fleet fight supers. The chances to meet a super in low sec is pretty small unless you fall asleep on a gate to be honest.


Hmm Pandemic Legion hmm...

Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy

Double aggro timer would make it alot more risky to drop. Interesting idea but it would mean fewer solo drops (not that there are a great many) and more supercap kills. But again people would argue that it (double aggro timer) is an unusual fix that is not in keeping with current game mechanics.

About chances in lowsec... It varies from region to region. Though your chances are pretty high if you see PHW or otherwise have neighbours that have supers.

Still after reading an RnK BR on carriers vs supers a 12km torp exp radius seems rather excessively huge.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:09:00 - [28]
 

Bump for more ideas

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.07.03 15:47:00 - [29]
 

Bump for more

BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2011.07.03 16:20:00 - [30]
 

Many Small Cuts.

1) Can't use FB in low sec.

2) Jump range is now 60% of dread range. This makes them much harder to move 5 regions in few hours.

3) 15 Minute Jump timer. Once they jump into system, they can't jump again for 15 minutes.

4) Increase aggro logout timer to 1 hour.

5) They can't use small, medium or large drones. This makes them need more support ships.

6) They can only use fighter bombers and bombers on things that move. They can't shoot TCU, SBU, Station, POS's. This gives dreads a role in the game again.


 

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