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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:20:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 19:21:55
Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
3 reasons why P2W is bad, not because of RL money being used for that purpose, but because the way the NEX store functions goes counter to the sandbox.

1) Price locking. Similar items and substitutes will be price locked to the NEX.

2) Unlimited supply. Unlimited officer grade modules when no current game mechanic allows this to happen.

3) Logistics. Spawning ships at stations that would be alot harder to resupply.

PLEX is not equivalent to MT.

1) only if the NEx price is lower than the player manufactured version.
2) true
3) true, although I doubt it that you'd ever be able to fully fit a ship with just AUR stuff.

Still, both NEx and PLEX have their advantages. You can do a lot more with PLEX --> ISK than just buy a few ships and modules or perhaps ammo.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:22:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling

3) true, although I doubt it that you'd ever be able to fully fit a ship with just AUR stuff.
I'd pay 70 bucks for a Monocle on my Domi.


Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:25:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Hekira Soikutsu on 29/06/2011 19:31:18
Edited by: Hekira Soikutsu on 29/06/2011 19:30:32
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu
3 reasons why P2W is bad, not because of RL money being used for that purpose, but because the way the NEX store functions goes counter to the sandbox.

1) Price locking. Similar items and substitutes will be price locked to the NEX.

2) Unlimited supply. Unlimited officer grade modules when no current game mechanic allows this to happen.

3) Logistics. Spawning ships at stations that would be alot harder to resupply.

PLEX is not equivalent to MT.


Since when does the LP store run out of implants?

Or, since when does the market run out of PI Command Centers?


LP store is subject to how fast players can run those missions to churn out Machariels.

Do PI command centres kill people? Remember that a single character can only run a fixed number of planets at once Smile

However, my statement about supply was directed towards officer-grade modules. It is simply not possible to produce a vast supply of these items, and rightly so since they are intended to be rare.


Originally by: Jennifer Starling
1) only if the NEx price is lower than the player manufactured version.


It also acts as a price cap should said item fluctuate, which it is possible.



I also forgot to add a fourth point to the first 3 that unlike with LP it is difficult to price the faction battleships because their greatly differing capabilities influence their demand by a great deal. Just look at the price of a Rattlesnake and compare it to the Machariel.

StillBorn CrackBaby
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:34:00 - [34]
 

I can hardly wait to buy Skill Points. It's coming, you'll see. It's coming.....

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:39:00 - [35]
 

Quote:

1) only if the NEx price is lower than the player manufactured version.


If the NeX items are cheap. Everyone in EVE will cash in PLEX's. When that happens, PLEX prices will go up.

When PLEX prices go up, the market becomes inflated.

NeX should be considered more like interest rates instead of anything else. They allow for injection into the market while not inflating or allowing for a crash.

Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:43:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
NeX should be considered more like interest rates instead of anything else. They allow for injection into the market while not inflating or allowing for a crash.


I suspect the anti-Fed people will want to have a word with you...

Rayna Ravenoff
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:44:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Jennifer Starling

3) true, although I doubt it that you'd ever be able to fully fit a ship with just AUR stuff.
I'd pay 70 bucks for a Monocle on my Domi.




If you look really close, you already have 2 monocles on your Dominix. Very Happy

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:48:00 - [38]
 

Having seen this argument so many times, I give a canned answer. Rebuttals and questions are free, stupidly, arrogance, insults and general ass-hatery will be taxed heavily via karma.

Originally by: Adunh Slavy

Micro-transaction items require virtually no input from the sandbox to create. For example, a ship magically created removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.

This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each micro-transaction created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more MT items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.

Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, they have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.

Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.

The only ones who profit from MTs are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but of everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the MT created items.

MTs are theft.


Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:51:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Quote:

1) only if the NEx price is lower than the player manufactured version.


If the NeX items are cheap. Everyone in EVE will cash in PLEX's. When that happens, PLEX prices will go up.

When PLEX prices go up, the market becomes inflated.

NeX should be considered more like interest rates instead of anything else. They allow for injection into the market while not inflating or allowing for a crash.


What you are saying is that they have a stabilizing effect on market prices. How can that be a good thing in an economy that is entirely player driven?

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:15:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 29/06/2011 20:15:16
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Having seen this argument so many times, I give a canned answer. Rebuttals and questions are free, stupidly, arrogance, insults and general ass-hatery will be taxed heavily via karma.

Originally by: Adunh Slavy

Micro-transaction items require virtually no input from the sandbox to create. For example, a ship magically created removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.

This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each micro-transaction created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more MT items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.

Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, they have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.

Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.

The only ones who profit from MTs are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but of everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the MT created items.

MTs are theft.




MTs are theft, ok dude.
Back in the land of things that make sense, by the sound of it as long as the cash shop items have no market produced equivalent, its all kosher right?

Anne Arqui
Minmatar
Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 20:23:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Takseen
MTs are theft, ok dude.

The thieves. The thieves. The filthy little thieves. Where is it? Where is it? They stole it from us!

Shocked

Franz Sigel
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:08:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Toawa
This argument has been bandied about many, many times. It's been countered by the "but with the ISK from PLEX, you're still employing people to create that ISK, not magicing it from thin air", many, many times.

I think the counterargument is valid, but it is missing a subtle but important point, which I think properly illustrates the difference between paying for ISK via PLEX and paying for ships/ammo/whatever via AUR via PLEX, and which I have yet to see put forward (although I have not read every instance where it was used, of course).

Hypothetically, say I need Tempests. I need a lot of them. And say, hypothetically, I'm limited to only buying it from Jita 4-4. And I need them very, very quickly. I need them fast enough and bad enough that I'm willing to pay $$ for it.

Right now, there are 151 Tempests available in Jita. Even if I buy enough PLEX to pay for more than 151, I can only get 151 *right now*, because that's all there is. Now, the natural market forces will say "Hey, someone's buying up all the Tempests... They must really want them. I better build more." And more will be built and sold, probably for higher prices than originally planned. The effect of that is, even if I thought I bought enough PLEX to pay for, say, 200 Temptests, that might not be enough.

It also means that others will be saying, "Hey, that guy's buying up Tempests... What is he up to?" and all of the spacio-political affects that can have.

Now say I can just trade in AUR for Tempests directly. There is no imposed spending limit. I could buy 200 or 2000, if I was willing to pay that much. I could build an unstoppable Tempest fleet in a matter of minutes, because the natural limiter of the market is no longer there.

That is the difference between PLEX and AUR/P2W: PLEX can only supply as much as the market can supply. AUR can supply as much as anyone is willing to pay for at that moment.


That's the point exactly! If CCP does really intend to do this, then they're simply about to short-sightedly burn down EvE's player-driven economy for their own needs of RM. And that would convert EvE essentialy into another type of game as it used to be. It would be Wallet Wars Online. Instead of providing the players with the means to mutually create their own virtual world within the rule frame of the game as before, players would be disconnected individuals. For, paradoxically, it is the virtual economy that makes the players of EvE social. Vice versa: allowing real economy to take over would put them back into the status of monads, of avatars of their purses. It would blow up EvE's Society.

So CPP would sell out their stock of old customers and buy themselves new ones. It seems obvious to me that this would be High Treason in a world that used to build itself upon trust - and it is obviously regarded as that by the players.

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:13:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Franz Sigel
It would blow up EvE's Society.

So CPP would sell out their stock of old customers and buy themselves new ones. It seems obvious to me that this would be High Treason in a world that used to build itself upon trust - and it is obviously regarded as that by the players.


>a world that used to build itself upon trust
>trust
>Eve Online

No.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:15:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Takseen

Originally by: Adunh Slavy


MTs are theft.


MTs are theft, ok dude.
Back in the land of things that make sense, by the sound of it as long as the cash shop items have no market produced equivalent, its all kosher right?


Can you prove to me you know what ISK is, prove to me you understand the monetary value of ISK? If you can not, I suggest you visit this thread, dude.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767

From the tone and structure of your last sentence, it seems you think I am pro MT. You would be gravely mistaken.

Solstice Project
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:16:00 - [45]
 



!!! SOMEBODY PLEASE STICKY THE THREAD, WHERE THIS GOT THOROUGHLY ANSWERED ALREADY !!!


It's somewhere, ...

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:18:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy


Can you prove to me you know what ISK is, prove to me you understand the monetary value of ISK? If you can not, I suggest you visit this thread, dude.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767

From the tone and structure of your last sentence, it seems you think I am pro MT. You would be gravely mistaken.


I was trying to be sarcastic, guess it didn't come across well. Calling MT Theft is stupid and has no basis in reality.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:22:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Adunh Slavy


Can you prove to me you know what ISK is, prove to me you understand the monetary value of ISK? If you can not, I suggest you visit this thread, dude.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767

From the tone and structure of your last sentence, it seems you think I am pro MT. You would be gravely mistaken.


I was trying to be sarcastic, guess it didn't come across well. Calling MT Theft is stupid and has no basis in reality.


You do not know as much as you think you do, that is abundantly clear. BTW, how much money did you loose this year, in the real world to inflation, do you even know? Probably not.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767&page=1#17

Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:25:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 29/06/2011 21:25:14
Originally by: Adunh Slavy


You do not know as much as you think you do, that is abundantly clear. BTW, how much money did you loose this year, in the real world to inflation, do you even know? Probably not.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767&page=1#17


So what, you're mad that your spacegold won't be worth as much as it used to be? That's inflation, not theft.

Wooker Tosk
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:25:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Edited by: Zagdul on 29/06/2011 19:03:29
Corrected title.

This may be hard to accept, but.

$$ > ETC > PLEX > ISK >

Officer Fit Titan
Implants (I can train faster)
Deadspace Tengu (I can rat/make isk faster)




NeX is less P2W than EVE has been in a VERY long time.

In other words, there are a lot of dumb people, hurfing and durfing over nothing.

Absolutely, nothing.




The new system creates assets out of thin air while the plex system only creates a plex. The over all effect on the economy is much different.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.29 21:27:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Edited by: Takseen on 29/06/2011 21:25:14
Originally by: Adunh Slavy


You do not know as much as you think you do, that is abundantly clear. BTW, how much money did you loose this year, in the real world to inflation, do you even know? Probably not.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767&page=1#17


So what, you're mad that your spacegold won't be worth as much as it used to be? That's inflation, not theft.


Your lack of comprehension is not my responsibility. Read the last link I gave you, or choose to remain ignorant. Up to you.

Franz Sigel
Posted - 2011.06.29 23:23:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Franz Sigel
It would blow up EvE's Society.

So CPP would sell out their stock of old customers and buy themselves new ones. It seems obvious to me that this would be High Treason in a world that used to build itself upon trust - and it is obviously regarded as that by the players.


>a world that used to build itself upon trust
>trust
>Eve Online

No.


Maybe I took the point too far calling it "trust" - but it used to be a reliable framework for cooperation.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:05:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby
I can hardly wait to buy Skill Points. It's coming, you'll see. It's coming.....
I hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised, nor would I be opposed to a reallocation of skill points.

I'd pay for that and I know a LOT of people who would.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:08:00 - [53]
 

Difference is....

Pay CCP to Win, or Pay PLAYER to win.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:10:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Difference is....

Pay CCP to Win, or Pay PLAYER to win.
uh.

Player buys ETC with RL money that goes to CCP.


Ahernar
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:12:00 - [55]
 

About the PLEX vs MT issue .To win you need conflict .
Lets say there is a big conflict in EVE between plex users (Alliance A) and plex sellers (the rich people , alliance B). The A guys build titans & stuff , the others just sell plex and burn expensive ships roaming . As more and more titans are sold they are becoming scarce for the producting alliance who has to supply for their needs and those of the ennemyes . The price goes up until insane ammounts when the only ones left are those needed to battle the ennemy, stopping the "cash to win" process and creating equilibrium on the battlefield .If some form of corruption appears (like in real EVE ) for ex when NC industrialists sold their supercaps to the ennemy ,at least after loosing the space they walked FILTHY RICH from it. They can use this isk to make a comeback (buy back theyr caps) becouse with the plex marked saturated (think 30 mils for the plex) the PLEX sellers have now little means to get more isk for themselves .
In a MT world , the poor alliance just get swamped by the force of cash . No comeback,no equilibrium ,just pure win.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:15:00 - [56]
 

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:16:00 - [57]
 

When you trade PLEX, CCP gets the same amount of money it would otherwise get if both of you just paid for your subs normally. However, two players benefit, and possibly others who are in the chain of players who make the stuff you buy from the ingame market with your new ISK. The possibility of trading PLEX alone also helps curb gold farmers.

When you buy a victory/advantage/monocle/dildo from CCP then CCP gets more money.

It's actually quite easy to draw a line between the two.

Ahernar
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:19:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Ahernar on 30/06/2011 08:24:04
Originally by: Zagdul
Can I have some of what you're smoking?


Can i have you point my mistake pls ? Enlighten me !

LE .If it's too complicated for you to comprehend just reduce the playerbase to 2 people.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:27:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Saving Face
When you trade PLEX, CCP gets the same amount of money it would otherwise get if both of you just paid for your subs normally. However, two players benefit, and possibly others who are in the chain of players who make the stuff you buy from the ingame market with your new ISK. The possibility of trading PLEX alone also helps curb gold farmers.

When you buy a victory/advantage/monocle/dildo from CCP then CCP gets more money.

It's actually quite easy to draw a line between the two.
Yes, it's called a sink.

Currently there is 1 PLEX sink and it's been said before that there are a lot of PLEX in circulation not being sold/used.

There needs to be a way to balance that because if the flip of, instead all being used... all are put up on the market, again... market crash.

This is a way for CCP to assist in regulating the price of PLEX so that the people who depend on it can continue to play.

jx3p
Posted - 2011.06.30 08:31:00 - [60]
 

This may be hard to accept, but.

You're stupid.


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