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edith prickley
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:50:00 - [31]
 

Doesn't anyone want to work for anything anymore?

Generally, you appreciate something more when you put more effort into it. Strange as it sounds, the fact that skill training is long and tedious actually makes you enjoy it more. Everybody likes it when they finally ding the skill that allows them to fly a new class of ships. When you can fly everything up to a BS from day one, you rob people of that experience. One of the more significant reasons people come to RPGs is for the feeling of progression, otherwise you might as well be playing an arena shooter.

Climbing certain skill trees requires a major time investment. By requiring this commitment, your character's profession becomes a valuable asset. If players can instantly re-roll (for cash) a near-perfect miner or cov-ops alt, or some other special purpose role, then the people who made a commitment to those those niche jobs lose work.

Count me as skeptical that cheapening SP makes for a better game.

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:51:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Noceur-01 Tiers
Just giving out SP in the start would be a really bad idea, I'm quite new and getting 10m SP would confuse me so much in the start. Rather start giving a small boost (faster training, lets say 20%) after 1mil SP until say 5mil SP. At that point of 1mil SP you know the basics of the game and the skilling is starting to feel slow.


I did say in my opening post it could be more it could be less SP. The idea behind it though is to give you an accellerated start so you can experience more in the game. I'd rather that than you noobs get frustrated and leave which does happen a lot.

Honestly EVE is one hell of a complicated game to give you a comparison. If you have ever played medieval total war 2 thats a pretty complicated game well throw learning to mod on top of that and then creating your own mini mod is several times easier than EVE is imo.

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:57:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: edith prickley
Doesn't anyone want to work for anything anymore?

Generally, you appreciate something more when you put more effort into it. Strange as it sounds, the fact that skill training is long and tedious actually makes you enjoy it more. Everybody likes it when they finally ding the skill that allows them to fly a new class of ships. When you can fly everything up to a BS from day one, you rob people of that experience. One of the more significant reasons people come to RPGs is for the feeling of progression, otherwise you might as well be playing an arena shooter.

Climbing certain skill trees requires a major time investment. By requiring this commitment, your character's profession becomes a valuable asset. If players can instantly re-roll (for cash) a near-perfect miner or cov-ops alt, or some other special purpose role, then the people who made a commitment to those those niche jobs lose work.

Count me as skeptical that cheapening SP makes for a better game.


At the last fanfest iirc a dev said it would take near 20 years to train every skill in the game. A boost at the start is there just to get things rolling 10 mill sp isnt that much in the grand scheme of things. Add on to that the extra complexity added to the game with every expansion and eve is continually becoming a harder game to understand.

Achmebenzadream
Minmatar
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:14:00 - [34]
 

Terrible idea.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you play this game? Thats assuming you do.......

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:19:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Achmebenzadream
Terrible idea.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you play this game? Thats assuming you do.......


Honestly hand on heart i litterally want to conquer the galaxy and i have a 4 to 5 year plan to do that in ;-)

Falbala
Gallente
Ishtar's Destiny
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:24:00 - [36]
 

With 10 mil SP you make a very decent miner/refiner for example. That would not be a good thing for CCP (it's like giving 6 free monthes of training) or for the game.

Achmebenzadream
Minmatar
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:24:00 - [37]
 

It'll be well worth the wait then :)

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:30:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Achmebenzadream
It'll be well worth the wait then :)



lol of course it will because once the revoloution comes everyone that wears a monocle will be lined up against a wall and shot.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:33:00 - [39]
 

If I was a newb I wouldn't like it. It would remove a lot of the fun of starting in a new game. Things like figuring things out on my own, experiencing the quick early progress.

It would also be pretty confusing if I had access to a lot of ship types with no clue how to fly them.
And low level missioning are a lot more fun with low skill point totals, they are actually somewhat challenging. Farming a ton of level 1s to get the challenge up would quickly be a bore.

I may not be representative of other players though.


Another issue is that old players having access to instant 10M SP alts might be a bit of a problem.

Teebee
XERCORE
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:34:00 - [40]
 

Only for the players that have dust and want to join EvE that way ccp never has to do the buying skill points thing.

Noceur-01 Tiers
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:45:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
If I was a newb I wouldn't like it. It would remove a lot of the fun of starting in a new game. Things like figuring things out on my own, experiencing the quick early progress.

It would also be pretty confusing if I had access to a lot of ship types with no clue how to fly them.
And low level missioning are a lot more fun with low skill point totals, they are actually somewhat challenging. Farming a ton of level 1s to get the challenge up would quickly be a bore.

I may not be representative of other players though.


Another issue is that old players having access to instant 10M SP alts might be a bit of a problem.

Try reading my suggestion once and you'd see a better way of implementing a boost for newbies.

Also afaik old pilots tend to just buy a character instead of training one from 0.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:49:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Patient 2428190 on 29/06/2011 17:54:46
Maybe back to the 900K starting point, I do miss the days of having your new friends tooling around next to you in T2 fit rifters within a day or two. Easier to convince somebody to stay when they can fit T2 modules within days.

Edit: Plus I could have instantly as many of these as I wanted... dictor alt, all the industry/trade/PI characters I could dream of, Cyno V characters, POS gunners, Orca pilots, JF pilots, Probers, Tengu pilots. Logistic pilots

Ffreyn Moonflower
Caldari
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:50:00 - [43]
 

Why not just give everybody a max skilled (all 5s) toon or 3 and be done with it?

Should probably make sure they all have 9.0 standing with all corps and factions too, and a starting fund of 10bn isk while you're at it.

Sorry, but its a really bad idea.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:51:00 - [44]
 

No, this would hurt them more than help them.

Without knowing how to spend the 10 million skill points they'll end up with useless skills or even unplayable avatars. If you want an alt train it up just like everyone else.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:01:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Noceur-01 Tiers
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
If I was a newb I wouldn't like it. It would remove a lot of the fun of starting in a new game. Things like figuring things out on my own, experiencing the quick early progress.

It would also be pretty confusing if I had access to a lot of ship types with no clue how to fly them.
And low level missioning are a lot more fun with low skill point totals, they are actually somewhat challenging. Farming a ton of level 1s to get the challenge up would quickly be a bore.

I may not be representative of other players though.


Another issue is that old players having access to instant 10M SP alts might be a bit of a problem.

Try reading my suggestion once and you'd see a better way of implementing a boost for newbies.

Also afaik old pilots tend to just buy a character instead of training one from 0.


If new players need a boost in SP, your way is certainly better. And CCP did that a few times already by removing learning skills and giving double training speed in the start.

If an old player need an alt, its more expensive to buy one than getting the training for free. Lowering that cost will make an impact.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:04:00 - [46]
 

I would say 100% to 300% training speed up to some limit, say 3 million or 4 million SP.

10 million SP to spend will confuse the new players and if you grant this bonus to all new characters you make it too easy for people to make disposable alt for less *ahem* legit purposes.

Instead confer a training bonus like before.

On CCP's side this is also not a good thing because doling out skillpoints means less account time and a shorter sub time. 10 million skillpoints is equivalent to several months of play time and therefore several months of plex/subs.

Alternatively, give new players skillpoints in selected areas of study, such as a headstart in the selected careers according to their choice in the character creator much like they did before.

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:09:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: El'Niaga
No, this would hurt them more than help them.

Without knowing how to spend the 10 million skill points they'll end up with useless skills or even unplayable avatars. If you want an alt train it up just like everyone else.


Firstly ive just been speaking to a load of noobs in the Chat.E-UNI chatroom and the general consensus was 10 mill sp is far to much but 2 to 3 mill sp would be nice. Secondly i already have a jump freighter/hulk/orca capable alt on a seperate account (ExcalibursSteed) so this genuinly isnt for me. If i needed another alt im more likly to spend 20 to 30 billion in the character bazarre getting a pimped industrialist rather than grind up from zero.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:11:00 - [48]
 

great idea!

While we're at it, let's give every person joining the game their own -1.0 sovereign system immune to attacks that only they can enter and which stays forever at military and industry 5.

Also, it's not fun getting blown up, right? So how about from now on players spawn with their ships intact after they die in a fire?

Ooh, and it's more fun to fight than to earn isk, so, how about we just close down Tranquility altogether and move everyone onto SISI where everything is basically free?

...

In all seriousness, the reason this game still exists is that the "new player experience" is different. By different I mean harder and therefore meaningful. Making the new player experience have a shallower learning curve is one thing. Making it outright easier is another entirely. If you make this game like other games, people will just play the other games instead.

Dana Jass
Caldari
Skullduggery Inc
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:13:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Patient 2428190
Maybe back to the 900K starting point, I do miss the days of having your new friends tooling around next to you in T2 fit rifters within a day or two. Easier to convince somebody to stay when they can fit T2 modules within days.


This. If you don't know what they're talking about, a few years ago character creation had a lot more detailed choices (Not just what school you went to, what program you studied there, experiences after graduating etc etc) that had direct effects on your starting skills; your character would have about 900k SP total, and with the right choices you could come out with very good skills for a single style of gameplay (enough to be nearly into cruisers with decent fitting skills, or able to run about 30+ buy/sell orders from a few systems away, or a whole host of other areas).

This makes the early game a lot more enjoyable as your character is initially more competent, and on top of that means during the tutorials you don't have to constantly switch skill training to fit whatever new module you've just been given, which is frustrating for a new player. It also helps associate various skill areas with professions for new players as they can see how the choices they make in creation affect their skills, and the extra level of character customisation helps build an attachment to that character by establishing a backstory.

Possibly crank the actual SP total this all gives you up to 1-2mil, and put in a training time bonus for new players as well to help them develop beyond that start; the higher SP total can be managed by arranging the skills gained at each step during creation to prevent players overspecialising in any one area (Ideally players should be starting with good but not great skills in the areas they focus on; they shouldn't be immediately ready to step into T2 ships with appropriate fits).

raker
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:15:00 - [50]
 


Firstly I think 10 mill SP would be far too much and new chars wouldnt know how to use that wisely

Having said that I do think that an amount lets say 5 mill Sp could be a good idea as along as all existing chars in game got 5 mill SP

Just think of all those new Tgts, Opps I mean chars flying around in low sec and 0.0 or in WH space Laughing



Maplestone
Myth and Peace Lords
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:17:00 - [51]
 

Raise base stats by 10% each year on the anniversary of the game's launch.

Every few years, introduce a new tier of skills at a higher multiple.

Every few years, replace a group of related entry-level skills by a common skill.

Result: perpetual treadmill, limited spread between entry and veteran players.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:18:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Hekira Soikutsu on 29/06/2011 18:19:03
Flamesuit time.

One issue with supercarriers is that they are a huge discouraging factor to triage carrier logistic battles in lowsec. The issue is not that they destroy carriers but rather players are leery to escalate to carriers and dreadnoughts for fear of a super gang. Against a carrier fleet of equal size, its an equal battle. Against a supercarrier gang, even the most resilient pantheon setups will last so long.

An idea would be to bump up their sig radius on their torps to 10km so that they'll still hit on the supercapitals for full damage but still allow lowsec carrier battles ala Rooks and Kings. I believe you'll see alot more dead capitals this way and it is a good thing for lowsec pvp and capital builders in general.

At the end of the day we need to see more pvp, not less.

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:20:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Maman Brigitte
great idea!

While we're at it, let's give every person joining the game their own -1.0 sovereign system immune to attacks that only they can enter and which stays forever at military and industry 5.

Also, it's not fun getting blown up, right? So how about from now on players spawn with their ships intact after they die in a fire?

Ooh, and it's more fun to fight than to earn isk, so, how about we just close down Tranquility altogether and move everyone onto SISI where everything is basically free?

...

In all seriousness, the reason this game still exists is that the "new player experience" is different. By different I mean harder and therefore meaningful. Making the new player experience have a shallower learning curve is one thing. Making it outright easier is another entirely. If you make this game like other games, people will just play the other games instead.


This game would never be like any other game because with every expansion more complexity is added to the game. This is what a some vets just dont seem to get. Just in the last year P.I., Incursions and WIS have been added to the game. Thats a whole lot more just in one year added to the game that a noob has to get there head around.

Seriously just think about what the game was like when you started to play Maman, how many expansions have you been through ? How much additional game content and complexity has been added to the game since you started to play ?

Anna Delacroix
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:21:00 - [54]
 

New player here.

Don't go give people SP the first time they log, you will just add to the learning curve by forcing them to check list of skill and they will use them awfully.

If you want to speed up their trainning, add a epic mission arc and give SP as quest reward. Now, make the quest available only after 2-3 week of play or after someone get X amount of standing with a corp something like that to make sure they have already something they want trainning.

And 10 million his lot too much, 1 or 2 maybe max.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:22:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/06/2011 18:22:58
I think OP's plan has its merits. What I'd agree with is to make some "professions" like miner, industrial, missioner, pvp char, trader/hauler for example and put 5-10 million worth of relevant skills into it.
CCP could/should of course check with the playerbase to optimize these as we don't want the silly bloodline SP packages anymore.

Once the player has played for say 2 weeks they get the option to pick one of those professions.
Originally by: Miss Rabblt
why not remove whole skill system?

this!!



(yes I know you're sarcastic)

Maplestone
Myth and Peace Lords
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:24:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: ExcalibursTemplar
Just in the last year P.I., Incursions and WIS have been added to the game. Thats a whole lot more just in one year added to the game that a noob has to get there head around.


Speaking as a noob, I just wanted to say that PI is a great self-contained introduction to the game economy that is a far more accessable starting point to industry and market dynamics than the entire mining-research-manufacturing chain.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:27:00 - [57]
 

Quote:
Highly controversial idea give all noobs 10 million SP



No, bad idea. It's controversial because most people think it's a bad idea.

...and if you want to know the truth, I think they should go back to the way things were, disregarding the current training speed boost for new players - but that's me.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:36:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: ExcalibursTemplar
Originally by: Maman Brigitte
great idea!

While we're at it, let's give every person joining the game their own -1.0 sovereign system immune to attacks that only they can enter and which stays forever at military and industry 5.

Also, it's not fun getting blown up, right? So how about from now on players spawn with their ships intact after they die in a fire?

Ooh, and it's more fun to fight than to earn isk, so, how about we just close down Tranquility altogether and move everyone onto SISI where everything is basically free?

...

In all seriousness, the reason this game still exists is that the "new player experience" is different. By different I mean harder and therefore meaningful. Making the new player experience have a shallower learning curve is one thing. Making it outright easier is another entirely. If you make this game like other games, people will just play the other games instead.


This game would never be like any other game because with every expansion more complexity is added to the game. This is what a some vets just dont seem to get. Just in the last year P.I., Incursions and WIS have been added to the game. Thats a whole lot more just in one year added to the game that a noob has to get there head around.

Seriously just think about what the game was like when you started to play Maman, how many expansions have you been through ? How much additional game content and complexity has been added to the game since you started to play ?


That's actually exactly the issue.

This game is only digestible in small chunks.

When I started playing, I thought I was going into industry. I played one week mining in high-sec belts, got bored and rerolled Minmatar to head towards violence.

From there, I toyed with level 1 missions, and spent awhile learning to fit ships, finding tools like EFT and EVEmon and a corp. To this day, my favorite ship is the Rifter.

Do I think it's a good idea to give people enough skillpoints to hop right into a cruiser on day 1?

No. No I do not.

Cruisers are slower, more boring ships when you first get into them, and you learn less from flying them than you do from trying to stay alive in a badly fitted rifter. They're also more expensive. Yeah, now, 10 million isk fully fitted sounds like a pittance, but I remember when it wasn't.

New players need to make their mistakes in frigates, with cheap mods, cheap ammo, and fast align times. Losing a cruiser on day 1 in EVE would be crushing. Losing a rifter is just an excuse for revenge.

When we need to lock down a lowsec system for a logistics movement, we often find ourselves killing a parade of haulers filled with peoples' worldy possessions, moving on the advice of some questionably-programmed mission agent. Higher SP levels permit people to make that mistake with more expensive toys.

You think that's going to make the new-player experience more *friendly*?

Emiko P'eng
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:36:00 - [59]
 

As a new player with about 3.2 million Skill Points!

I think it is a bad idea!

I would rather buy shares in CCP to support them, than get free Skill points.

After just over a month of play I know I am easy meat for any Pirates out there!

I joined EVE because of it's complexity!

So when I finally am able to Win more fights than I lose or earn my 1st Billion!
I will be able to hold my head up high as I will know I earned it!

No way do I want it handed to me on a plate like a charity handout.

As far as I am concerned the 'I WANT it NOW, but I DON'T want to do anything for it WoW players can stay in WoW!'

(Note: I played WoW in Beta! Gave up after less than 3 days as it was so blinding simple to level and get wealth it was worse than BORING, it was criminally pandering to the lowest common denominator crowd! As proved by the atrocious language in chat! )

ExcalibursTemplar
Caldari
Citadel Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:45:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Maman Brigitte


That's actually exactly the issue.

This game is only digestible in small chunks.

When I started playing, I thought I was going into industry. I played one week mining in high-sec belts, got bored and rerolled Minmatar to head towards violence.

From there, I toyed with level 1 missions, and spent awhile learning to fit ships, finding tools like EFT and EVEmon and a corp. To this day, my favorite ship is the Rifter.

Do I think it's a good idea to give people enough skillpoints to hop right into a cruiser on day 1?

No. No I do not.

Cruisers are slower, more boring ships when you first get into them, and you learn less from flying them than you do from trying to stay alive in a badly fitted rifter. They're also more expensive. Yeah, now, 10 million isk fully fitted sounds like a pittance, but I remember when it wasn't.

New players need to make their mistakes in frigates, with cheap mods, cheap ammo, and fast align times. Losing a cruiser on day 1 in EVE would be crushing. Losing a rifter is just an excuse for revenge.

When we need to lock down a lowsec system for a logistics movement, we often find ourselves killing a parade of haulers filled with peoples' worldy possessions, moving on the advice of some questionably-programmed mission agent. Higher SP levels permit people to make that mistake with more expensive toys.

You think that's going to make the new-player experience more *friendly*?


You raise a good point but the one thing your missing is money im not suggestion you give a noob isk. Just accellerate the rate at which they learn so they can experience more of eve sooner. They might have the skills to fly a cruiser but can they actually afford one ?



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