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Dadanen1
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.29 06:35:00 - [31]
 

Don't know, don't care, but i know ill be sitting back watching and eating popcorn, and imagining i'm in a theater watching this at the beginning of it all.YARRRR!!

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 06:36:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Sub Prime
CCP will say that there will be no physical non-vanity items. They will however offer remaps & sp realloaction via MT though.

CCP will not agree to making CQ optional though and won't agree to changing their development to a) placing more priority on Eve or b) resolving existing issues.


i dont see what the problem is. (ignoring the bugs of course) the change is about the same as changing the login screen. Instead of a spinning ship you have a character and a couch.

In a years time you wont want CQ to be optional ether, as shown in the fanfests of previous years, they intend to develop WiS and create new BPOs for in-station things, such as gambling tables and storefronts.
This is the direction eve is going. You can cut yourself out of it and pretend it doesnt exist, remaining in your disabled CQ. But there will be thousands of players exploring, trading and doing business in stations.

Hoya en Marland
Posted - 2011.06.29 06:37:00 - [33]
 

Get real people. Explaning their financial situation to CSM and using that as excuse for all this mess is not going to happen.

So, it's definitely 6.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.29 06:38:00 - [34]
 

The question is not whether or not CSM will bend over and take it up the ass. The only question is whether or not there will be lube.

diaufop
Posted - 2011.06.29 06:46:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: diaufop on 29/06/2011 06:50:49
Edited by: diaufop on 29/06/2011 06:48:17
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
CCP will use the weasel-wording "we have no plans," will offer another non-apology apology, will offer some new cheap crap in the nex store, will give all active accounts a handful of aurum (enough to buy 1 or 2 of the cheaper crappy items) and will try to get the CSM to agree to a quid pro quo where CSM gets stuff that benefits their alliances and CCP gets CSM's rubber stamp.


This man is close to the truth. Although I also expect a few $100+ items as well as some cheap ones to be added to the store. Possibly jeans. Or golfing gloves. Pay-to-win will die down until Dust's release, at which point CCP will successfully push it through, banking on Dust covering the loss of EVE subscriptions. Not that I'll be playing EVE by that point, but I'll try to remember to pop into the forums and check.

Sub Prime
Posted - 2011.06.29 06:48:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Sub Prime on 29/06/2011 06:48:18
Originally by: Terminal Insanity


i dont see what the problem is. (ignoring the bugs of course) the change is about the same as changing the login screen. Instead of a spinning ship you have a character and a couch.



In a years time you wont want CQ to be optional ether, as shown in the fanfests of previous years, they intend to develop WiS and create new BPOs for in-station things, such as gambling tables and storefronts.

This is the direction eve is going. You can cut yourself out of it and pretend it doesnt exist, remaining in your disabled CQ. But there will be thousands of players exploring, trading and doing business in stations.


This is what Hilmar wants, yes. He wants a virtual world better than RL. Myself, I want a game where people fly around and shoot things rather than a second life in stations. He's changing Eve and modelling it on his vision.

How about he develops a space station second life and adds that to eve like Dust - that way I can play Eve as it should be played, you can play Eve and Eve Stations and we'll all be happy!!

Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.06.29 06:57:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 29/06/2011 07:08:56
Originally by: Terminal Insanity

Using Aur to buy a non-vanity item can still benifit players. It depends how they create the system. Note, the system hasnt been created yet, and thus your point is just mindless speculation and fear mongering. You assume that CCP will cut players out of the transaction, when infact there has been many great suggestions all over the forums on how to cut the players in on the deal.

For example, in order to upgrade your raven to a 'NeX Raven' with an extra 5% torpedo damage, you would still require a player-built regular raven in exchange.

And then, nothing is broken, Capiche?

You invalidated your own point...lol.

Ocih
Amarr
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:02:00 - [38]
 

Can I assume our CSM goes by the name, Lando Calrissian?

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:03:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
I had many corp mates without the time to fully participate in parts of the economy, or ratting necessary for them to play their roll in the economy... blowing up ships and getting them blown up.


Well consumption is an essential part of the economy. Without it, exhaustible supply might as well be infinite. You don't have to be all the parts of the economy, so long as all the parts are there.

Quote:
A great many of them paid real $ for _some- isk each month and would not have played without it.


I assume you are referring to PLEX trading, which is merely a conversion of one economic medium currency for another. It isn't effectively the same as cash shops and how they impact the economy. Simply because the PLEX does not create any ISK, and the PLEX has intrinsic value.

Quote:
As the people who enjoy the economy tend to produce more than they consume and probably in general spend a little less effective time kililng things or being killed, they are net producers both of isk and items.


This wouldn't be true in a true sandbox economy. But the CCP Reserve Bank is actively interfering both directly and indirectly.

Quote:
We need some net consumers to balance them off... and for that matter, any additional player adds some value to the economy in making it a deeper, market in more of the items traded which many of are fairly eractically traded as they are even with 300k plus accounts worth of characters on a single server (trust me, I trade many implants and tags and stuff that even in jita might only trade a few times a day and see the deviation in demand of other goods readily create swings without any unusual buying activites that point to manipulations (when you update orders in an item a couple times a day for 6 months and often have the lead buy and lead sell price for portions of the day, you get a pretty good feelilgn for what is manipulation and what isn't)


I agree with the meat of this, but value is directly related to the relationship between supply and demand. Not necessarily the perceived value. Just because someone is willing to pay $50 for VirtuaPants, doesn't mean they are actually worth $50. Even in real life. Implementing a cash shop is a mechanism for adding worthless infinite supply while charging for it.

Bottom line: People who buy items from a cash shop, that have no supply limits, are not financially sound of mind. All because what they paid for is effectively worthless regardless of the pricetag.

Telven Stareal
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:15:00 - [40]
 

My vote is for Godzilla!

Dalmontra
Journey Construction Ltd.
Army of Dark Shadows
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:16:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
It's a PR stunt to buy time. The CSM being there means absolutely nothing... except that CCP is willing to spend all the money the monocles have made them on PR.


QFT

The CSM didnt even have knowledge/input on the NeX, its prices, or the potential impact/reaction from the playerbase

The CSM was partially made to help CCP with design and ideas, but wasn't brought into this.

Now that CCP has had a LOLWUT moment, they've called in the CSM to buy time.

I have faith in Mittens though, he's the EVE equivalent of Judd Nelson.

amarri victari
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:26:00 - [42]
 

number 4

tbqh i think it goes like this:


ccp - we are keeping it all!
csm - not good enough
ccp - ok how about we give old hanger back as an option
csm - ok, but not enough, you said mean things and hurt our ponies
ccp - hmm ok, how about we give old hanger + non-vanity
csm - well i suppose so.

bingo - ccp get what they want. the reason (imho) that ALL these changes can at once is so that CCP had a back door built in up front.

they want NEX - we dont particularly care - if it had been released alone, we would have complained at prices en-masse. now, our focus has been pulled from the prices by our own admission (ie: we dont care, we wont buy it anyway), to we want our old hanger back and no vanity and dont give a hoot about prices. but isnt this nice - all of a sudden a compromise gives ccp what they want and what the masses have been screaming for.


csm come away with soem give-backs (heros!)
ccp get to sell $70 monocles and $500 goggles

in 12+ months when subs have lowered:
ccp - "NEX announces P2W - SP for AUR, Ships for AUR, sov for AUR"
players - oh god we knew this would happen, lets threadnaught

csm - we'll fly to iceland
ccp - we are keeping it all!
csm - not good enough......rinse and repeat.....


Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:29:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Rose Hips
3) CCP explains their financial situation, and begs the CSM to convince us it's all ok.


I'm betting (3). Though the explanation of the financial situation will paint it as far more dire than it really is, and the "beg" part will involve some coercion ("it's like this guys: we make more money or we go bankrupt.").

An MT store that works like an LP store would be an acceptable situation in my book. Not everyone can afford Raven Navy Issue decked out with officer mods, but when we find them do we complain that they are overpowered? No. We gank them and laugh at the pilot's needless waste of ISK.

The only issues that I have with MT are carefully designing it to involve player industry (i.e.: at an LP store you can either trade a raven for a CNR, or buy a BPC for the CNR), and carefully aligning the costs of items to ensure scarcity.

Originally by: The Beggar Joke
So this guy walks into a new shopping mall, and there's this hawker near the front door selling gold pencils. The guy takes an interest and asks, "how much for the gold pencil?"

"A thousand dollars," says the beggar.

"What? A thousand dollars? How many people are going to buy them at that price?"

"At that price, I only need to sell one."



So as far as the three categories of "vanity", "concierge" and "power" items go, I'm quite happy for the NeX to offer items that are slightly better than available on any LP store. That's vanity and power items covered, as long as player industry is involved. Where I draw the line is "concierge" items, aka "let's mess up the game on purpose so people can pay to un-mess it" - things like extra saved fittings for example. That's a definite no-go area.

The LP store model means someone can trade around 100 hours of effort (at 6000 LP/hr) for a really nice ship. The NeX store model should map to about the same amount, which in my economic environment maps to about $1000 worth of Aurum for a really nice ship.

If someone wants to spend $1000 on a ship equivalent to a Machariel, CNR or Nightmare, good for them. Watch for killboards adding dollar amounts to their metrics, with gangs of pirates forming specifically to cause the most real-currency damage possible. The NeX fools could have saved their time by spending $100 on PLEX to buy an officer fitted Machariel and spending a couple of days shopping for the best contracts.

Those presets might change of course, depending on how fast the average mission-runner is accumulating LP/hr, and what base salary we're comparing in order to value those hours in real world currency.

The $70 monocle is not a farce at all. It's a mere billion-odd ISK, and those people getting outraged due to the price of this vanity item are missing the point.

Originally by: Dictionary
van·i·ty /ˈvanətē/ Noun
1. Excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements.



Is $70 an excessive amount to pay for a piece of clothing? I certainly think so. My sympathy to those people who feel the N-billion-ISK they've spent on that item is worthwhile.

How many people use Republic Fleet projectile ammunition for PvP? Is that cheating? What if there was "Noble" projectile ammunition that was ten times the price - would you buy it? I envisage the power curve going along the lines of T1 -> T2/Faction -> Pirate -> NeX. Each step along the way there is some advantage, but a significant rise in cost.

As far as "power" items go, I do not want to see NeX offering anything that players can't manufacture.

TL;DR: I fully support a NeX store selling "vanity" and "power" items, on a the same model as the existing LP stores which effectively provide "power" items in exchange for a secondary currency. LP reflect hours invested. LP cannot be traded between players. LP can be used to buy "power" items which are tradable on the market. NeX allows time-poor players to substitute real-world hours for in-game hours doing a task that is almost as boring as mission-running.

vasuul
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:31:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
CCP will use the weasel-wording "we have no plans," will offer another non-apology apology, will offer some new cheap crap in the nex store, will give all active accounts a handful of aurum (enough to buy 1 or 2 of the cheaper crappy items) and will try to get the CSM to agree to a quid pro quo where CSM gets stuff that benefits their alliances and CCP gets CSM's rubber stamp.


I have more faith in our CSM's than this.Whatever happens lets not allow CCP make the CSM's their sacrificial lambs.
The protests did what they were meant to do which was Make enough stink in the press to make CCP realize that is was a publicity nightmare and to Get CCP to at least listen the complaints,rather than trying to wait us out.
I personally want to see it resolved so the game can go on,and everyone can get back to business,
and we never hear the term pay2win out of any CCP executives mouth again.
If it doesn't well what have we lost by trying?? At that point you will have the same options open again.

A You strike out again blasting away ,Stir up more bad publicity and try to force em all to the table again.
B Give up and accept the game of EVE as we knew her, will never be the same and try adapt with the changes.
C You unsubscribe and try to find something else to do.

It would be fabulous If CCP

1. Issues a formal apology , and promises to listen to us in the future,before it becomes a mob scene

2. Gives us something more than the door to look at when we turn off the CQ feature (even the old hangar view we can hope )

3. Gives us a statement in writing that is crystal clear on the never a pay2 win thing

4. Promises to Keep the nex vanity as only and changes all items in the store to 1 run blueprint copy's

5. As for the NEX prices we can only hope they may make em more reasonable ( but after all they are coming from A high Japanese boutique shop :joking: ) Honestly if they don't just don't buy anything there cause to me it never was about this

I know some say burn the NEX but honestly I think CCP Is firm on having it in the game and will not give in on this


Out of those options We might get 1 and 3 maybe #2 in a later patch,yes i am being optimistic blame it on the bourbon
Still lets give the CSM's a chance and, wait for the outcome.
What have ya got to lose ??


Flag Bravo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:31:00 - [45]
 

Yeah, CCP will win once they offer CSM free monocles.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:32:00 - [46]
 

I would also like CCP to consider moving NeX stores to be an LP store for the Noble Exchange, and create new station models for the Noble Exchange, reflecting something like a cross between a glass edifice corporate headquarters and a "Russian Caravan".

And then forget Aurum, just sell PLEX to NeX for LP.

And put these stations in lowsec only.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:33:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Flag Bravo
Yeah, CCP will win once they offer CSM free monocles.


I would throw my monocle at Hilmar's face (in-game)

vasuul
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:40:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
I would also like CCP to consider moving NeX stores to be an LP store for the Noble Exchange, and create new station models for the Noble Exchange, reflecting something like a cross between a glass edifice corporate headquarters and a "Russian Caravan".

And then forget Aurum, just sell PLEX to NeX for LP.

And put these stations in lowsec only.



HA Ha yeah I am sure that's not going to fly would make the pirate gankers happy though YARRRR!!

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:41:00 - [49]
 

CSM goes down in round 1.

Then CCP offers 2)

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:41:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 29/06/2011 06:30:20
Originally by: Katrina Cortez
Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 29/06/2011 06:04:32
It is different... that mach didnt poof in to existence. Someone had to buy a ship, fit it, go out and shoot rats, and get the bpc. Materals were mined by someone to make it. In doing so they were vulnerable to attack by other players. The NeX would bypass all of those things.


Originally by: Pure Tabasco
YOU STILL DON'T GET IT DON'T YOU? Maybe that MONOCLE of yours its affecting your vision of REALITY.

When people buy PLEX and sell it it benefits another player that worked hard (or easy, doesn't care) for its isk.
When people use isk and buy a character, it benefits the player that made the character for "growing" him while you haven't done anything for him.
Using PLEX to buy something in-game benefits the player who made that thing in-game.
Using Aur to buy something that only CCP benefits crash the intention of making the game a sandbox and break the economy to something that doesn't worth anything. Capiche?

Wrong.

Using Aur to buy a non-vanity item can still benifit players. It depends how they create the system. Note, the system hasnt been created yet, and thus your point is just mindless speculation and fear mongering. You assume that CCP will cut players out of the transaction, when infact there has been many great suggestions all over the forums on how to cut the players in on the deal.

For example, in order to upgrade your raven to a 'NeX Raven' with an extra 5% torpedo damage, you would still require a player-built regular raven in exchange.

And then, nothing is broken, Capiche?


The only ones who will benefit form this is CCP, not the players.

CCP can already implement all these featurs if they wish, and let them be avaliable for isk. People can get isk through PLEX if they so desire already.

Putting featurs and new things behind a paywall is only done to milk the players for more money. Nothing more.

San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:42:00 - [51]
 


El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.29 07:44:00 - [52]
 

I believe there will be 2 major points.

1. CCP is Financially in trouble, CCP had the release of their financial statement. I don't believe they'll go in depth but they'll try to explain why they need this income. They'll ask the CSM to help them by not doing further interviews on eve-radio about the subject and to curtail their blogs.

2. There are a number of planned items that are in a gray area. CCP is not fully sure if they would be considered P2W or not. These will be shown to the CSM under the NDA to gauge their reaction.

I believe that to their detriment it is likely that CCP will then ignore the CSM as they have done previously. I hope that's not the case but Hilmar's mail and the attitude throughout the Greed is Good tell me we can't hope to high.

There will be no hard copy briefings for fear of leaks. They will not meet with upper management but more likely middle management. I say that because no member of upper management has bothered posting on the forums or in any way address player concerns. They've insulated themselves sadly to the point they are out of touch.

What I hope happens is that someone from upper management does meet with them either CCP Oveur or CCP Hilmar. Perhaps both. That there is an earnest exchange. I believe it would be helpful for CCP Soundwave to be present as well as Lead Designer. That they have a powerpoint presentation as to why they are going in this direction complete with projections in concert with an admission that they are in financial trouble. They then present a view of the full range of items currently considered and get the CSMs input on each item. They then take that input to heart and shelve ideas considered to close to P2W. CCP then rededicates itself to EVE Online with promises of increased development time etc to address the many player concerns with possible an outline of the basic ideas for the Winter Expansion (NDA applying of course).

THe problem is the NDA will keep most of us from knowing what goes on. I think that's the real danger, if the playerbase perceives no change the riots will increase.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:09:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
The only ones who will benefit form this is CCP, not the players.

CCP can already implement all these featurs if they wish, and let them be avaliable for isk. People can get isk through PLEX if they so desire already.

Putting featurs and new things behind a paywall is only done to milk the players for more money. Nothing more.


Correct. Whats the problem? Do you honestly believe CCP exists soley as a non-profit organization to provide you with internet spaceships? I think not, peasant.

MT is obviously for generating increased profit. This is what companies do, they make money off of you.

If you do not wish to support CCP as a company, then you shouldn't be paying for your account ether. The actual cost of allowing you to play is far below your subscription cost. At least the MT is optional.

Personally, i want to see CCP succeed, i want to see WIS, and more content. I want to see it make the Guinness Book for longest surviving MMO. I want to look back at these days and laugh at your failed peasantry uprisings and marvel at how far above you i've soared, monocle in brow.

Angeliq
Minmatar
Soimii Patriei
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:26:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Angeliq on 29/06/2011 08:26:43
None will win. Both will lose, actually CCP already lost. CSM are just puppets (some of them might even know it).

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:29:00 - [55]
 

CCP will back down and promise to never introduce non-vanity items for MTs.

They will then go ahead and introduce them anyway in six months.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:31:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
CCP will back down and promise to never introduce non-vanity items for MTs.

They will then go ahead and introduce them anyway in six months.


They'll wait a year....

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:35:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
CCP will back down and promise to never introduce non-vanity items for MTs.

They will then go ahead and introduce them anyway in six months.



This is always a possibility, especially as they've shown no respect for their customers. Still the more money they get in the more they have to help finish the other projects.

Scarlet des Loupes
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:36:00 - [58]
 

CCP - CSM : 3-1

what can i win?

Ranita Drell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:49:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Ranita Drell on 29/06/2011 08:56:12
Originally by: Rose Hips
4) CCP remains fast, but willing to cave on some items. They ask the CSM for advice.

I think this will end up hitting closest to the remark.

I think they'll convince CCP to restore the old hangar view or at least duplicate the functionality it hand (maybe not ship spinning, but things like easier access to cargo), and/or enable a non-temporary solution addressing the performance woes of multi-client players.

I don't think we'll get a full, clear promise of "no non-vanity MT ever" but do think we'll get some sort of additional assurance on this front -- reiterating that they still have no "plans" to introduce such things (with more concrete language than "gold ammo").

I think CCP intends to sell non-vanity MT but can't come out and say that. Zulu's most recent blog posts ties their hands. They'll avoid appealing to the CSM's sympathy by invoking their financial situation (except perhaps to underscore how vital the NEX store generally is) because if they start discussing non-vanity MT like it's a likely scenario -- a contingency plan if you will, the dishonesty in their position will be readily apparent.

CCP may explicitly acknowledge some of the particular concerns players have about non-vanity MT (like having a NEX vending machine poof whole goods out of thin air) to prove that they've listened, and when/if they do implement MT for game-affecting things, it will through the sale of blueprints and/or will require trading in a comparable non-MT item along with a significant aurum premium.

They may throw us a bone with regard to clothing/NEX. They might drop the price on a few select items (I would expect the monocle to remain priced as-is) or accelerate the release of some additional, more modestly priced things. They might unlock all the clothing/accessories/hairstyle free options across all races, as some players have suggested.

CCP will acknowledge problems with the way they communicate with players, and maybe make some token reforms in their PR procedures or how they work with CSM.

I think there's an off chance they could announce some bittervet-appeasing maneuver such as accelerating the time frame on the balancing efforts that were slated for Winter.

Other than that I'm not expecting much. I would be quite surprised if they didn't concede this much, and even more surprised if CCP ended up making greater concessions.

Death Merchant
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.06.29 08:58:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Redblade


There is a huge difference, if you sell the same Machariel that you bought for your Plex converted ISK straight for Aurum instead it bypasses the 4h production time and the mineral cost of the build, it also undermines the market for Machariel BPC's at the same time.There really is no need to go that path as you can buy Plex already to achieve the same effect.

Now if you where to introduce a unique ship BPC for Aurum it would be a different story as it wouldn't be competing with anything and still require minerals and build time to be applied to the BPC before you get a ship out of it, same as any other ship on the market.



Along the lines I was thinking. Could solve a few problems, make a niche under market and generate profit for parties involved.

1. non vanity Nex item could have advantages/stats of an officer mods (sort of like the cosmos mods but instead of fitting, performance).
2. It must be a bpc (that way player economy get's its piece of the pie)
3. It must have some kind of isk/time god awful long skill to build.

My view is that Nex items are customizable. Sort of like t3 ships but not as drastic. For example

For ships: only tier 1 for now.
Nex ships can add 1 mid or low slot (if available). Start frig and work way up.

For mods:
Adjustable slide stats for example: Damage mod. (increase ROF, but also increase cpu).

For implants(not sure about this one).
Able to add effects but no ability to add Omega like bonuses. Still lower total attributes(bonuses) than a low grade but still noticeable.






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