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Obviously Confidential
Posted - 2011.06.28 14:40:00 - [1]
 


  • EVE is a unique sandbox product, the result of years of efforts and love from CCP

  • The nature of the sandbox environment requires a close relationship of trust and understanding between CCP and the Community

  • The EVE sandbox requires constant improvements, developments, bug fixes and gameplay additions

  • Recent internal reports have shown that the CCP mindset towards EVE has shifted from it's course

  • Recent expansions have shown CCP development focus is more concerned with other projects like WoD and DUST

  • EVE expansions should not be camouflaged parts of other games (Incarna/WoD)

  • EVE expansions should not be hooks to other games (Tyrannis/DUST)

  • EVE should not be used as a goose/cow to finance vampires or console fps

  • EVE requires dedicated teams of developers that not only fix bugs but are also 100% focused on making EVE better and growing the sandbox

  • Expansions should be meaningful, with content and gameplay additions that further enrich the gaming environment



PROPOSAL

  • CCP commits to >80% reinvestment policy of all revenues from EVE subscriptions to be put back into developing EVE

  • This policy will be audited by the CSM / Community by reviewing annual company reports

  • CCP is free to develop other gaming projects/whatever and can use it's track record and reputation from EVE to secure external financing according to investor interest and required commercial viability assessments


Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.06.28 14:55:00 - [2]
 

I like this post and agree completely.

Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.06.28 15:57:00 - [3]
 

I think 80% is a bit high. I'd be alright with 60% devoted to actually improving the mechanics and such for the game. Incarna was the eye-candy expansion, adding no mechanics which benefited the gameplay itself, and thus would be part of the 40% invested in extraneous projects.

CCP has spent an enormous chunk of their available funds in side projects, such as WoD, Dust, and WiS. I have no problems with these projects, as I want CCP to grow, but everything in moderation. I'm wondering if, once these side projects are done, we're going to see more, and our beloved game is gonna be left in the Dust.

Supported in concept.

Evalon Fury
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:12:00 - [4]
 

/Signed

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:17:00 - [5]
 

I would be happy with 50%.

Gevlin
Minmatar
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:28:00 - [6]
 


sorry can't agree with this topic.

A company has to have its freedom to make its own physical policies.
it has to think outside the box to compete in a real world.

If it wishes to share 10 Million in development in World of Darkness Which will in turn provide a 5 Million in shared development back into eve every year for the next 5 years. Then that is their decision. And I will support CCP on that.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:14:00 - [7]
 

80% is probably too high given CCP have already got themselves in over their heads with WoD and DUST, but the idea is sound - the majority of Eve profit above and beyond operating costs and salaries should go towards further development of Eve. And not development of ways to sell MT items as with CQ and WIS, but improvements and additions to spaceship content.

Fix the bugs first. Then improve existing content like boring missions, exploration, fleet warfare, sov, outdated UI, etc. Finally add new spaceship related content.

Rixiu
The Inuits
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:48:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Rixiu on 28/06/2011 19:48:37
I would be happy with just 5% which probably is more than the one art team, team BFF and team gridlock who are currently working on eve.

Obviously Confidential
Posted - 2011.06.28 23:53:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Gevlin

sorry can't agree with this topic.

A company has to have its freedom to make its own physical policies.
it has to think outside the box to compete in a real world.

If it wishes to share 10 Million in development in World of Darkness Which will in turn provide a 5 Million in shared development back into eve every year for the next 5 years. Then that is their decision. And I will support CCP on that.


We agree that CCP should have freedom to pursue different projects and think outside the box in order to compete in the real world.

However, HOW MUCH they can do this, on top of developing EVE, is what this means to address. You are seeing the glass half full, where all these projects are sucessful and lead to improvements in EVE without impacting it's development. But there is also the glass half empty, where these projects lead to so much resources being skimmed away from EVE that in practice CCP is gambling with present assets for risky future ventures.

Other MMO's which much larger revenue streams can do this but their games have reached a critical mass where the % skimmed is irrelevant in absolute terms, thus not affecting development. I not only fear that EVE has not reached this critial mass yet, but also that this level of critical mass for a sandbox MMO is much higher than for traditional storylined pve games.

There is also a risk mitigation effect from having a portfolio of separate projects rather than all your eggs in one basket under the "shared development" umbrella. The fact is, shared development hurts the less risky projects (EVE) and benefits the much riskier projects (DUST and Wod). If things go wrong, you lose it all because you gambled with everything you had...

Let's assume that 80% is a good enough figure. In practice this means CCP has 20% of EVE revenue to develop other projects, and once initial concept/early stages are settled it can then go find investors and VC to fund them. If they are sucesfull, EVE will also benefit from the 5 million "shared development" you refer.

What won't happen with this is that CCP starts taking larger steps than they can afford, chasing after larger projects than it's real size permits. If EVE grows, so do the 20% for other projects. CCP already has an advantageous position with the track record and credibility from EVE. If these projects are good, they will obtain funding. CCP is better placed than 1000 other companies developing stuff from scratch - no need to skim off EVE.

Please note that several sucessful games have been launched by companies with much less resources than CCP under this scheme - it is still a better setup to make new games than the one they had when they made EVE, and we all agree EVE is pretty awesome. Why risk it for other things? And EVE needs constant individualized and focused development. LOTS OF IT.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:05:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Obviously Confidential
However, HOW MUCH they can do this, on top of developing EVE, is what this means to address.


Here is my question to you; Do you buy gas? What about bread? Electricity? Internet access? Why don't you go and crusade for those providers to reinvest >80% into their companies?

Please, don't hold back, do tell.

Demanding from a private company that it should run its business a certain way is nothing short of crazy. You don't like the way CCP is run? Stop giving them your money. Simple solution but arguably there is far less grand standing involved.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:16:00 - [11]
 


Dr Logoffski
Posted - 2011.06.29 05:28:00 - [12]
 

It seems as though that there are people who play games so much that they've lost their grip on reality. Hence the phrase "get real", this isn't going to happen.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.29 05:31:00 - [13]
 

Never thought maybe you weren't carrying that little Helicity Boson quote too far did you? Let's get something straight here: CCP developed EVE and got you interested in their product. You have spent Months to years investing in EVE as entertainment at the expense of a monthly subscription, or additional time investment to earn the ISK to pay for PLEX.

You are not feeding CCP, signing their paychecks, or any of the rest of that fluff. Get a grip, step back into reality and get over it. The only time anyone has any claim to providing for a business, is when they put hours and years of effort into keeping it afloat from the inside, taking **** poor wages and giving it their all despite that, while the owner sits on his duff, ****es away money and generally doesn't give a rats ass whether it sails or fails.

You're paying for entertainment, whatever you like to think, and CCP is providing the environment for you to attain it. That is all; nothing more. Seriously, get over yourself.

Obviously Confidential
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:40:00 - [14]
 

Firstly, I was trying to help and support CCP into getting back on track, aiming to be constructive and making suggestions/proposals that can help sort this mess. That is my tone and hope people read it that way.

Secondly, and drawing on the commentary above, if my favorite baker that makes awesome bread that I like suddenly starts selling me stale bread with chocolate toppings extra charge, while showing me posters about this Ferrari factory he plans to build on his backyard, I might just ignore him and go buy bread elsewhere. But I can also, and would probably, tell him it's not such a good idea. Not because I consider myself a Ferrari or bread expert. Just because I care about him and like his bread.

Thirdly, I can understand the frustration with the blood sweat and tears of effort that people put into developing a game, don't know if it's good or badly paid since this is a hobby for me. That said, perhaps the frustration should be directed towards whoever pointed all this effort into a possibly wrong direction? People are not forced to like everything one does, even if you put a lot of effort into it...that's why paying attention to customers is important?

Fourthly, recent EVE development is reduced to bug fixes while the rest of the company is focused on other projects. EVE has been hurt by this, and in my opinion this is part of what is making people frustrated.

  • I waited for Tyrannis, learned the PI skills and after 3 weeks was tired of that horrible clickfest and turned away never to come back - I thought "why are they doing this crap?"...then I realized, "it's about DUST, not EVE".

  • I waited for Incarna, then it got released and it does indeed look lovely but it's totally useless on top of unplayable buggy - even if you try and have a rig that runs it (I can) after a few days you just feel stupid since there is nothing to do. I think "why are they doing this crap?"...then I realize "it's about WoD or some other Carbon thing they are testing".


Not to mention EVE Gate fiasco. All of this is the consequence of low development investment and people being focused elsewhere. THE AGENDA IS ELSEWHERE.

If CCP had told us "we are going to do something else, you guys stick in there and we'll be back in two years", it would have been honest. And I don't really think sandbox games can live without constant and focused development.

That said, I was trying to help sort this out. The suggestion was meant to address this problem. Neither saying that the diagnosis is correct nor that the prescription is the best. It's just my thoughts, trying to help out. And calling it how I see it.

Jasonissocoollike Janeway
Posted - 2011.06.30 02:19:00 - [15]
 

Originally by:

Secondly, and drawing on the commentary above, if my favorite baker that makes awesome bread that I like suddenly starts selling me stale bread with chocolate toppings extra charge, while showing me posters about this Ferrari factory he plans to build on his backyard, I might just ignore him and go buy bread elsewhere. But I can also, and would probably, tell him it's not such a good idea. Not because I consider myself a Ferrari or bread expert. Just because I care about him and like his bread.
[/quote




This analogy about sums it up. The mistake was letting Fearless leak. They are going to have to make compromises if they don't want to lose half of the player base. I'm not going pay a $15 subscription, and be forced to buy micro-transactions (golden ammo, special fittings, ships..etc) just to keep up with everyone else. It's like the other side of that pdf said. Customers will feel like they are being double billed.

Micro transactions are fine to introduce in free games, like Dungeons and Dragons. But that crap will not fly here. Eve is not a golden goose. If the developers and big wigs had any sense of preservation at all, they will stay away from Pay to Win. I'm fine with vanity items.

Good post Obviously Confidential! Kudos to you.

Khamelean
Posted - 2011.06.30 02:33:00 - [16]
 

Once you give your money to CCP, it's not your money any more, it's their money. You paid it in exchange for a service, as long as CCP supplies the service you paid for, they can do what ever the hell they want with their money after that.

While it is also in CCP's best interest to invest money directly back in to Eve to improve the product and attract new subscriptions, that is not the only good choice on how to move forward. Development of WoD and Dusk will give back 10 fold to eve on the investment in time and technology, not to mention diversify the skill set at CCP. The whole purpose of the new carbon engine is to allow advances made in one game to improve others built on the same technology. If you honestly can't see the benefits of this long term, then you are very short sighted indeed.

Jasonissocoollike Janeway
Posted - 2011.06.30 02:46:00 - [17]
 

That is why it's a proposal. You know, suggestion....?

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena

Posted - 2011.06.30 04:10:00 - [18]
 

I do recall seeing someone making the strong case that unreleased projects should rely on investments and such intended for it, just like any new venture- and certainly even from White Wolf profits.

Also, I agree heavily with the point that EVE is a unique sandbox. The perceived direction/mindset that the internal reports generally imply would undoubtedly deconstruct that sandbox which makes the game unique. And, let's face it, it's the ONLY selling point for this game. The gameplay is arguably dull and lethargic. The community and the sandbox nature are what make this game worth playing. If the sandbox is destroyed by said perceived direction/mindset, there's no reason for anyone to play EVE. It would be the death of EVE, and subsequently CCP, since they have no other project ready to support them. They would be committing seppuku.

THIS is what needs to be impressed upon CCP by the CSM- that they'd be killing themselves if this is indeed the direction they plan to take. The game is just too hands-off in gameplay, and there's no way to fix that fast enough to pull in a different community to keep this game going.

Splatacus
Posted - 2011.06.30 11:29:00 - [19]
 

Geez. Last time I checked CCP was a company with the goal to make money for shareholders, not a community service. You dont like it, leave.


I suggest CCP sells itself. The mess the company made out of Incarna shows that they are over their heads with the product design and implementation.

CCP don't seem to have capacity to do both, develop new content and fix bugs. Sell the corp to Sony now who owns the access to DUST anyway.

Sony can handle the boring stuff (microtransactions, Barbie / Ken environments...) and it frees CCP staff to come up with awesome content.

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.06.30 14:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Splatacus
Geez. Last time I checked CCP was a company with the goal to make money for shareholders, not a community service. You dont like it, leave.

And you think these people haven't already canceled their subscriptions? They have time on their accounts, though, because cancelling subscriptions doesn't mean your account ends that very moment. Time was paid for, and there's no automatic refund system (nor would anyone expect there to be). They will continue to try and clarify to CCP that they are on the way to destruction up until their current subscription time expires.

CCP selling to someone would probably not be too bad- so long as they aren't going to muck around with them poorly, like Activision with Infinity Ward.

CCP has often said they hold their community in such high esteem; Players are just insisting they actually back that claim up.

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.30 15:15:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Obviously Confidential
Originally by: Gevlin

sorry can't agree with this topic.

A company has to have its freedom to make its own physical policies.
it has to think outside the box to compete in a real world.

If it wishes to share 10 Million in development in World of Darkness Which will in turn provide a 5 Million in shared development back into eve every year for the next 5 years. Then that is their decision. And I will support CCP on that.


We agree that CCP should have freedom to pursue different projects and think outside the box in order to compete in the real world.

However, HOW MUCH they can do this, on top of developing EVE, is what this means to address. You are seeing the glass half full, where all these projects are sucessful and lead to improvements in EVE without impacting it's development. But there is also the glass half empty, where these projects lead to so much resources being skimmed away from EVE that in practice CCP is gambling with present assets for risky future ventures.

Other MMO's which much larger revenue streams can do this but their games have reached a critical mass where the % skimmed is irrelevant in absolute terms, thus not affecting development. I not only fear that EVE has not reached this critial mass yet, but also that this level of critical mass for a sandbox MMO is much higher than for traditional storylined pve games.

There is also a risk mitigation effect from having a portfolio of separate projects rather than all your eggs in one basket under the "shared development" umbrella. The fact is, shared development hurts the less risky projects (EVE) and benefits the much riskier projects (DUST and Wod). If things go wrong, you lose it all because you gambled with everything you had...

Let's assume that 80% is a good enough figure. In practice this means CCP has 20% of EVE revenue to develop other projects, and once initial concept/early stages are settled it can then go find investors and VC to fund them. If they are sucesfull, EVE will also benefit from the 5 million "shared development" you refer.

What won't happen with this is that CCP starts taking larger steps than they can afford, chasing after larger projects than it's real size permits. If EVE grows, so do the 20% for other projects. CCP already has an advantageous position with the track record and credibility from EVE. If these projects are good, they will obtain funding. CCP is better placed than 1000 other companies developing stuff from scratch - no need to skim off EVE.

Please note that several sucessful games have been launched by companies with much less resources than CCP under this scheme - it is still a better setup to make new games than the one they had when they made EVE, and we all agree EVE is pretty awesome. Why risk it for other things? And EVE needs constant individualized and focused development. LOTS OF IT.


I can understand where you're coming from and appreciate your efforts to do something positive.. however I can't help thinking that CCP won't even finish reading your post before moving onto the next thread {if they do even read threads in here).

They have their goals, their priorities, and then a budget (which would be under review now given unpredictability of current circumstances) that takes these factors into account. Their decisions are made by a body of professionals and I doubt they'd even contemplate even considering such ideas from just a player. Smile

Obviously Confidential
Posted - 2011.06.30 17:51:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Khamelean
While it is also in CCP's best interest to invest money directly back in to Eve to improve the product and attract new subscriptions, that is not the only good choice on how to move forward. Development of WoD and Dusk will give back 10 fold to eve on the investment in time and technology, not to mention diversify the skill set at CCP. The whole purpose of the new carbon engine is to allow advances made in one game to improve others built on the same technology. If you honestly can't see the benefits of this long term, then you are very short sighted indeed.


Like all plans, if everything goes well it's fine! However, the concern is that it may go wrong (WoD / DUST) and that it is draining too much resources from EVE. The proposal was aimed at making sure new stuff being developed has a scale proportional to what CCP can realistically do without hampering EVE. And by introducing a quantitative measure they can control it with a metric based on investment - which is what matters.

I want CCP to make a gazillion Euros every day but feel like revenues from investments in EVE are more solid and generate steady growth (and profit!), while investments in other venues may not lead to commercial success and are risky, especially if you take on 2 other projects at the same time. No problem with risk, but how much you gamble is a decision that involves a tradeoff between investing on your present assets that give you solid growth and investing on future assets that may be worth little. By putting everything on the same bag, EVE has to pay for everything and also shares all the risk! I know game companies do this left and right, but not with sandboxes - for them it's scripted gameplay, where players repeat routines endlessly while being milked, so it kinda makes sense after a while to go build new scripts on some new game. EVE is not like that.

One of the problems this could also address is lateral development. CCP seems a bit like companies that are very good at engineering/science but are terrible at making consumer oriented products. Even when EVE gets awesome new additions that HAVE potential, CCP seems to go like "potential is there, we implemented it, we proved we can do this, cba to fine tune/polish it, let's move to some other awesome idea!". Supercaps, SOV changes, FW, Incursion, COSMOS, Epic Story Arcs... All of these have TONS of room for improvement. CCP does the first part (putting it there, engineering it) but then they don't fine tune further to make it really AWESOME. All of these things could have a bunch of developers iterating and advancing each feature further. That's what focused development in a sandbox should be, as opposed to lateral development, always targeting new things, new additions, new great ideas (that ARE great) but leaving a trail of unfinished things behind...and I am not talking papercuts! Perhaps sandbox development favors this approach, since development can do the first mile and leave the bricks for the players to build stuff with, but there is a difference between giving players tools and leaving them with unfinished stuff.

Originally by: Mattio11
They have their goals, their priorities, and then a budget (which would be under review now given unpredictability of current circumstances) that takes these factors into account. Their decisions are made by a body of professionals and I doubt they'd even contemplate even considering such ideas from just a player. Smile


CCP listens to player proposals...they also seem very stubborn though.

I don't think we'll ever realistically get 80%, but when you start something it's better to ask for too much than to settle for less, and perhaps if we build some traction we can get all those professional people to think about it a bit.

Algathas
Minmatar
The Revenge of Auntie Freeze
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:12:00 - [23]
 

Although I would like CCP to focus more on EVE, for obvious reasons this idea is completely fail and would not work.

"CCP commits to >80% reinvestment policy of all revenues from EVE subscriptions to be put back into developing EVE"

So what happens if the operating costs of eve such as the servers, internet connection, etc amount to greater than 20% of revenues? How would you allocate "shared" development expenses between multiple games?

"This policy will be audited by the CSM / Community by reviewing annual company reports"
Yeah.. because the CSM and players are all financial experts and this is a publicly traded company. Oh wait...

"# CCP is free to develop other gaming projects/whatever and can use it's track record and reputation from EVE to secure external financing according to investor interest and required commercial viability assessments"
Lol...

Frau JeanYus
Posted - 2011.06.30 20:30:00 - [24]
 

This!


 

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