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Taureana
Posted - 2011.06.28 13:44:00 - [1]
 

I have been speaking to a lot of my friends and contacts on Eve and we all would love to see a Super Hulk brought into the game. Something that could fit a possible 5 Strip Miners at least.

We as mining community would greatly appreciate it if you could make this a reality...

t'raq mardon
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:40:00 - [2]
 

I'm pretty sure CCP has said that they will NOT introduce a ship with more mining capability than the Hulk. They seem to have turned their efforts to combating macros and investigating other ways to limit the availability of minerals. I believe they are trying to make mining more profitable by... well making mining more profitable. I mean, they are trying to increase the value of minerals as apposed to the volume you can obtain.

Demosai
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:59:00 - [3]
 

No super hulks. Please.

Mineral prices are moving (as a whole) in a good direction. That's what the legit mining community needs, higher mineral prices. Introduce super hulks and the regular miner will go broke, mineral prices will plummet.

FYI, mineral prices I am referencing, here's a snapshot of prices in tash-murkon (region I do most of my high-sec mining) today vs one year ago (note that prices fluxuate, this is meant to show only the general trend)

Tritanium
3.11 - 2.35
Pyerite
4.25 - 4.5
Mexallon
24.31 - 30
Isogen
57.50 - 52
Noxcium
380 - 125
Zydrine
870 - 1250
Megacyte
2950 - 2500
With these prices, this means that a carrier is about 50 million isk in minerals more than it was last year. Hurrah mining income! Especially the 32% gain to trit and 204% gain to nocx, both available to miners everywhere.

I wouldn't mind an improvement to the hulk, so it can be able to tank better in 0.0, I'm thinking the current hulk with improved CPU/PG (fit cruiser-size mods instead of frigate-size), but the current mining yield is fine, cutting the bots that flood the market with cheaper minerals is the bigger boost for the miners.

shady trader
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:28:00 - [4]
 

Do a search, this idea gets suggested at leased once a month ang sets shot down as often.

Taureana
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:00:00 - [5]
 

Well I can't be online a lot, and have been mining with Hulks for months now... Even if they introduce a Super Hulk and make it double the price, I would still be willing to purchase and use it. As I, along with everyone I have spoken to about this, feel that this would be greatly beneficiary to our mining efforts... less time mining for same amount of Ore

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:09:00 - [6]
 

and it'll crash the market.

There is no need for a "better" mining ship, at all.


HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:27:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: t'raq mardon
I'm pretty sure CCP has said that they will NOT introduce a ship with more mining capability than the Hulk. They seem to have turned their efforts to combating macros and investigating other ways to limit the availability of minerals. I believe they are trying to make mining more profitable by... well making mining more profitable. I mean, they are trying to increase the value of minerals as apposed to the volume you can obtain.


I have continuously heard that CCP wants to combat macro mining.
This is often times given an excuse as to why CCP won't design a better ship than a hulk.
They and we should understand that you can't combat macros by limiting what ship a macro can use.

A macro in a hulk is going to be able to mine more than a player in a much better ship still, so how does not having the better ship fight macros?

CCP needs to stop making excuses on why their can't be a better ship, and instead, apply some changes to mining to 1) make it more entertaining and 2) make it as complicated as possible for a macro designer to control the game.

Perhaps they could make asteroids untargettable via the overview, and instead you are required to have a scanner in order to target the asteroids.

That's just a general suggestion that may work to combat macros, but I'm pretty sure that if ccp sat down and really thought about it, they could design some mechanics that make mining a hands on aspect of eve.

If they would sit down and take the time to do so, then we true players wouldn't have to suffer because of macros and would be able to have better mining ships that might help to make mining a reasonable isk/hour variant to lvl 4 missions.

We all know that level 4 and 5 missions have the best pay off besides marketing if you know how to do it.
I would like to see mining be a comperable variant to that.

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:32:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
and it'll crash the market.

There is no need for a "better" mining ship, at all.




Also, while they're figuring out how to fix macro mining issues, maybe they could figure out how to solve this issue as well.

Say, perhaps ships requiring some or more of these ores during production.

That would increase the need for the ore, decrease the amount of ore on the market, and increase the payout of mining, thus allowing mining to be as profitable as lvl 4 missions.

Again, those who mission have a higher isk/hour ratio compared to high sec miners. Maybe such suggestions can help close that gap a little bit and assist in giving CCP less reasons on why they won't design new ships.

Yulinki Atavuli
Minmatar
Caldari Investment and Security Industries
Innovia Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:34:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Yulinki Atavuli on 01/07/2011 17:34:21
I'm not a miner but i agree that the super hulk will change the prices drastically. so i disagree with the OP.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN

CCP needs to stop making excuses on why their can't be a better ship, and instead, apply some changes to mining to 1) make it more entertaining and 2) make it as complicated as possible for a macro designer to control the game.



thing is, "hulk is the best miner, period" isn't an excuse so much as a statement that there do not need to be any bigger mining vessels (I concur with CCP here).

regardless of if we got bigger ships or not, all it would end up doing is making belts disappear faster (not bad, IMO... they should bring back M/F only as the respawn days Twisted Evil) ... and over the long term, as more people skilled into these new mining vessels, the mineral market would likely crash...


HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.01 18:03:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN on 01/07/2011 18:03:52
Originally by: Velicitia


thing is, "hulk is the best miner, period" isn't an excuse so much as a statement that there do not need to be any bigger mining vessels (I concur with CCP here).

regardless of if we got bigger ships or not, all it would end up doing is making belts disappear faster (not bad, IMO... they should bring back M/F only as the respawn days Twisted Evil) ... and over the long term, as more people skilled into these new mining vessels, the mineral market would likely crash...




I completely understand that concept. The problem here that I have is that mining isn't at all as profitable as lvl 4 missions. The reason why I concur with this ship is to close that cap.

Now, again, in order for that gap to be closed, reguardless of whether this ship is implemented or not, CCP needs to find a way to make ore mining as profitable as lvl 4 missions.
Either by increasing the need for ore, or some other means.

Eve is getting to the point where more and more players are wanting to make as much profit as possible and stepping out of the realm of mining and into the realm of missioning.

In order to make mining a viable isk/hour exchange to missioning is for them to do like I said, OR, they need to figure out a way to make macro mining more difficult by making mining more interactive.

As it stands, the existence of the hulk or the existence of a ship better than a hulk isn't what's causing the ore prices to drop.

It's the fact that the ore isn't used enough to compensate for the amount mined, as well as macro miners causing influxes on ores.
Solve those two issues and they can make a super mining dreadnought without causing a market crash.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.01 18:18:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN

I completely understand that concept. The problem here that I have is that mining isn't at all as profitable as lvl 4 missions. The reason why I concur with this ship is to close that cap.


But it won't ... not in the long term anyway. if you do something that makes it easy to double your mining income, as soon as people figure it out, they'll be doing it too... and then your mining income drops off.

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN

Now, again, in order for that gap to be closed, reguardless of whether this ship is implemented or not, CCP needs to find a way to make ore mining as profitable as lvl 4 missions.
Either by increasing the need for ore, or some other means.



Kill the bots oughta work Smile

Seriously, if they can't kill the bots... then no matter what else you propose, the mineral prices will ALWAYS stay low.

There needs to be more scarcity... not more supply.

Having the belts respawn daily is nice (yay, stuff to mine!)... but at the same time it cheapens the mineral values.

say for example, I have a system with seven belts, mine one belt out per day.

Currently, I can do that with no trouble, since the belts respawn at DT, and the belts have six(6) DT's in order to "fill up" between being mined.

before this, it would take 3 to 4 weeks for a belt to get up to the same level of "useable ore" that it takes a mere 6 days now. So you had to spread out your operation, or deal with lower volumes because of this.

Plyn
Posted - 2011.07.01 18:26:00 - [13]
 

Typical miner yields x minerals every hour. Mineral prices per unit are determined by availability. Typical miner begins to yield more minerals/hour because of a better ship. Market availability of minerals increases, price decreases.

Unfortunately, newer pilots who can't fly the "SuperHulk" yet have the prices of their goods drop without their yield increasing... meaning their income will drop substantially.

Price of minerals drops, the price to construct ships drops. Cheaper ships means the ship building industry explodes, and because of the huge increase in availability, the value of their goods drop dramatically as well, potentially knocking many of them out of the market. Now less people are building ultra-cheap ships with ultra-cheap minerals, meaning the industrial market has an even harder time keeping up with the mineral production, and the whole thing could, potentially, spiral out of control.

Taking macro-miners out of the game, however, does increase your ISK yield. Less mineral availability means every full cargo-hold makes you that much more. Industrialists will bid higher and higher for your minerals so they can be the ones to build ships. The value of those ships increases, making indys money and giving pvp and missioners stuff to sink greater amounts of isk into.

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.01 18:39:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Velicitia

Kill the bots oughta work Smile

Seriously, if they can't kill the bots... then no matter what else you propose, the mineral prices will ALWAYS stay low.

There needs to be more scarcity... not more supply.

Having the belts respawn daily is nice (yay, stuff to mine!)... but at the same time it cheapens the mineral values.

say for example, I have a system with seven belts, mine one belt out per day.

Currently, I can do that with no trouble, since the belts respawn at DT, and the belts have six(6) DT's in order to "fill up" between being mined.

before this, it would take 3 to 4 weeks for a belt to get up to the same level of "useable ore" that it takes a mere 6 days now. So you had to spread out your operation, or deal with lower volumes because of this.


That's why I suggested killing the bots.
It seems that bs's are limited to their ability due to the difficulty of what they do and balancing them with each other to make them all more competitive in pvp.

However, when it comes to mining the only balancing needed is to balance the mining capability with the market.

Now, because of macro miners the mining capability of the hulk and/or the possible existence of a newer, more efficient mining vessel are limited.

If they were to do like we suggest and make mining more hands on in some way, this would negate macro mining and clear a huge gap to allow for the existence of a better ship, or better mining modules on the hulk.

I think if ccp could actually figure out who is and who isn't a macro miner at any given time, then they'd probably find that atleast 10% of the community playing at that time are macro mining.

I will unwillingly admit that when i was a noob character I had a macro miner.
Macro miners are great at simulating human interaction.

Doing this may be as simple as once an hour a computer programmed private chat invite is sent out to all players that gives them a certain amount of time to respond to the private chat.

Now, this private chat is not avoidable, and will not give the player the choice on whether to accept the chat invite or not, but will pop up a message stating
"A human response check has been initiated"

Now, this human response check will require the player to type a specific message into the private chat box. The message they are required to type will be given into the chat window when it is created.

To make sure that a macro cannot respond to this message, these chat windows are not saved into any type of log book for the game, thus removing anything a macro may be able to check for the message.

Basically, it's the same kind of thing that places such as facebook and yahoo do when creating an account to ensure that a human is creating the account and not a computer.

It may be annoying to players at first, but once they see that ore prices in the market are doing better and mining becomes a viable isk/hour application, then they won't be so disapointed about the chat anymore.

PhantomTrojan
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:24:00 - [15]
 

advanced macros can actually respond to that, chatchyas only makes it hard for begginers macroers and its "very" annoying for players.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:56:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Demosai
No super hulks. Please.

Mineral prices are moving (as a whole) in a good direction. That's what the legit mining community needs, higher mineral prices. Introduce super hulks and the regular miner will go broke, mineral prices will plummet.

FYI, mineral prices I am referencing, here's a snapshot of prices in tash-murkon (region I do most of my high-sec mining) today vs one year ago (note that prices fluxuate, this is meant to show only the general trend)

Tritanium
3.11 - 2.35
Pyerite
4.25 - 4.5
Mexallon
24.31 - 30
Isogen
57.50 - 52
Noxcium
380 - 125
Zydrine
870 - 1250
Megacyte
2950 - 2500
With these prices, this means that a carrier is about 50 million isk in minerals more than it was last year. Hurrah mining income! Especially the 32% gain to trit and 204% gain to nocx, both available to miners everywhere.

I wouldn't mind an improvement to the hulk, so it can be able to tank better in 0.0, I'm thinking the current hulk with improved CPU/PG (fit cruiser-size mods instead of frigate-size), but the current mining yield is fine, cutting the bots that flood the market with cheaper minerals is the bigger boost for the miners.


2 years ago pyerite was almost 8isk each =(

shady trader
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:16:00 - [17]
 

Super-hulks will not benefit the miner, all it will mean is that they make less per unit of ore and have to mine more. However it would reduce amount of money that mission runners make (not an all together a bad idea) recycling junk loot. The group that would benefit are the PVP people.
Suicide gankers will get cheaper ships making it more profitable, capital ships will be even easier to build as the the minerals will be easier/cheaper to get.

Other then hauling they could get the same effect by reducing ore volumes.

As for getting rid of macro's, CCP are trying but non MMPOG has solved the farmer problem yet.

Taureana
Posted - 2011.07.02 11:11:00 - [18]
 

In all honesty, making a SuperHulk available is not a bad idea. Just figuring out what the prerequisites are suppose to be will be. You could make a ship like that SUPER elite.... requiring various lvl 5 skills, and probably very expensive also. Something like that would mean that having or even seeing a SuperHulk would be rare, but still allowing that option for those players dedicated enough to train up for it.

Just a thought, as I STILL would like a better ship than a Hulk

Quintin Taurus
Posted - 2011.07.03 17:46:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Taureana
In all honesty, making a SuperHulk available is not a bad idea. Just figuring out what the prerequisites are suppose to be will be. You could make a ship like that SUPER elite.... requiring various lvl 5 skills, and probably very expensive also. Something like that would mean that having or even seeing a SuperHulk would be rare, but still allowing that option for those players dedicated enough to train up for it.

Just a thought, as I STILL would like a better ship than a Hulk


I agree 100% with this... If you make them rare they wouldn't, as some claim, crash or flood the market but at least they would be available to those who want them.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.07.03 18:46:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Taureana
You could make a ship like that SUPER elite.... requiring various lvl 5 skills, and probably very expensive also. Something like that would mean that having or even seeing a SuperHulk would be rare,


They did this with Supercarriers and Titans. Now look at where 0.0 warfare is.

Bottom line: if there is a ship that outperforms a person's current "high-end" ship, they will gun for it as quickly as possible. The reason, of course, is that they want to remain as competitive as possible... even if it's only a few percentages more efficient. But your concept ship doesn't appear to just be "a few percentages" better than the Hulk... it appears to be a fair bit better.

What does this mean?
It means that more people are going to get higher ore yields...
which means that there will be more ore/minerals available on the market...
which means that supply is going to skyrocket while demand will remain more or less the same...
which means that ore/mineral prices drop...
which means you now HAVE to mine more to produce the same amount of income that you did before...
which then REQUIRES you to train up to use the new "Superhulk" to mine more ore...
which means there will be more ore/minerals available...
(rinse and repeat)

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.07.04 02:04:00 - [21]
 

Heres the only way a Mega Hulk should EVER be introduced.

MEGAHULK

Using the mega hulk would mean you cant just turn your mining lasers on and watch something on netflix. A trade off for the sheer amount of ore you can rip from an asteroid is that you have to actively mine.

Through consistent surveying of the asteroid or asteroids your mining you have to direct the mining laser to the high deposits which change after every cycle. Whether the asteroid is broken up into Civilization like precut boxes/polygons or like the PI system of hot/cold areas.

This would result in a larger gain for miners who actively mine, not sit in a belt drooling over whatever garbage is on TV, Netflix, other game they are actively playing (they can continue using the Hulk). Benefiting passive players and botters isnt the goal as a '5 strip miner hulk' would.

If optimization isnt done as you mine you would net as much as (if not preferably less) than a Hulk.

This Megahulk would have 3 strip miners as per usual but a bolstered cargohold to hold the extra ore it would strip. As for how much more? I dont know, im not really very knowledgeable with how much ore a hulk gets anyway. I think a bonus of 35-40% more ore per cycle would be the absolute maximum with level 5 Megahulk/Superexhumer whatever.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.04 02:44:00 - [22]
 

Instead of a new mining ship, perhaps there need to be more things to mine, or more uses, and consumable uses, for what can be mined now. Either would have the general effect of increasing mineral prices.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.04 04:02:00 - [23]
 

Someone will post this type of request about once a month. I don't like the idea.

I would much rather see a gas harvesting ship..some love for mining drones...and a whole lot more and varied minerals to mine.

Makko Gray
Pheno-Tech Industries
Crimson Wings.
Posted - 2011.07.04 12:48:00 - [24]
 

I believe there have been some nice posts about a configurable ORE ship like the T3s and there are some good ideas in that approach.

But just a super hulk that mines more than the normal hulk is a bad idea that doesn't really achieve anything. I think if you want to improve industry you need to be more creative - the Orca was a good example of that and did much more to improve mining than a super hulk would have done.

-1

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.04 17:45:00 - [25]
 

hey, how about instead of a super hulk that mines better, how about a super hulk that just hauls more.

Maybe half the cargohold of an orca, without the fitting bay, or the corporate hanger, but still have the ore bay.

So basically a hulk with an ore bay and larger cargohold

Taureana
Posted - 2011.07.06 13:41:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
hey, how about instead of a super hulk that mines better, how about a super hulk that just hauls more.

Maybe half the cargohold of an orca, without the fitting bay, or the corporate hanger, but still have the ore bay.

So basically a hulk with an ore bay and larger cargohold


Well a larger cargohold won't help me in the least, as I have 4 accounts running, and I mine with an Orca and some Hulks... The thing is I can't be on for hours and hours a day, I want something that can speed up the mining process and thus I am requesting a Mining Barge that can bring in large quantities of Ore in a short amount of time.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.06 15:57:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 06/07/2011 15:57:43
Originally by: Taureana
Originally by: HELLBOUNDMAN
hey, how about instead of a super hulk that mines better, how about a super hulk that just hauls more.

Maybe half the cargohold of an orca, without the fitting bay, or the corporate hanger, but still have the ore bay.

So basically a hulk with an ore bay and larger cargohold


Well a larger cargohold won't help me in the least, as I have 4 accounts running, and I mine with an Orca and some Hulks... The thing is I can't be on for hours and hours a day, I want something that can speed up the mining process and thus I am requesting a Mining Barge that can bring in large quantities of Ore in a short amount of time.


and pray tell, what happens when all the macros get into said ship... ?


(wait for it)


... oh, that's right! mineral prices will tank, and people will be crying for YET ANOTHER bigger mining ship.

Destras
Posted - 2011.07.06 16:07:00 - [28]
 

I greatly disagree with the OP's interpretation of what a next lvl "Hulk" should be. As always its a concept of want more without giving anything, this is the inherent problem with all new mining ship requests. A new mining ship does need to be designed however it needs to be designed to better withstand Nullsec, Wormhole and Gas mining. Using the T3 cruiser model and applying it to the Industrial ships for a Tech 3 barge where in depending on the actual build of said ship can provide greater yield but in turn reduce its defense to that of paper masche (pardon spelling), or increase its capacity and lower yield to improve better solo mining, or a lowering of both cargo and yield with heightened defenses for the deep space mining. This game is all about give and take, u sacrifice tank for dps and vice versa, why not impliment same thing for miners and allow us to grow with the rest of the community.

Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Industry and Investments
Posted - 2011.07.06 16:11:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Destras
I greatly disagree with the OP's interpretation of what a next lvl "Hulk" should be. As always its a concept of want more without giving anything, this is the inherent problem with all new mining ship requests. A new mining ship does need to be designed however it needs to be designed to better withstand Nullsec, Wormhole and Gas mining. Using the T3 cruiser model and applying it to the Industrial ships for a Tech 3 barge where in depending on the actual build of said ship can provide greater yield but in turn reduce its defense to that of paper masche (pardon spelling), or increase its capacity and lower yield to improve better solo mining, or a lowering of both cargo and yield with heightened defenses for the deep space mining. This game is all about give and take, u sacrifice tank for dps and vice versa, why not impliment same thing for miners and allow us to grow with the rest of the community.


This, I think.

We should never see mining ships in a dedicated PvP role, but there's nothing obviously wrong with a nullsec mining ship being a little less good at mining and a little better at running away/tanking/etc.

HELLBOUNDMAN
Posted - 2011.07.06 16:24:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Doctor Invictus
Originally by: Destras
I greatly disagree with the OP's interpretation of what a next lvl "Hulk" should be. As always its a concept of want more without giving anything, this is the inherent problem with all new mining ship requests. A new mining ship does need to be designed however it needs to be designed to better withstand Nullsec, Wormhole and Gas mining. Using the T3 cruiser model and applying it to the Industrial ships for a Tech 3 barge where in depending on the actual build of said ship can provide greater yield but in turn reduce its defense to that of paper masche (pardon spelling), or increase its capacity and lower yield to improve better solo mining, or a lowering of both cargo and yield with heightened defenses for the deep space mining. This game is all about give and take, u sacrifice tank for dps and vice versa, why not impliment same thing for miners and allow us to grow with the rest of the community.


This, I think.

We should never see mining ships in a dedicated PvP role, but there's nothing obviously wrong with a nullsec mining ship being a little less good at mining and a little better at running away/tanking/etc.


There's actually a guy that started a thread a few days ago that made the suggestion of a strategic industrial ship layout that would give you the option of hulk style, orca style, mackinaw style, and whatever else industrial variant you can think of.

You should check it out here...
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1545877


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