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blankseplocked Salvaging other players wrecks without repercussions.
 
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Dremox
Minmatar
Whispers From The Void
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:33:00 - [1]
 

In a game where everything has repercussions I find it odd, and incredibly annoying that people can probe out a mission wreck place, and go there, and even if the player is there doing the mission, they can begin salvaging what wrecks there are, without the player who the wrecks belong to can do anything about it..

Why when looting aother players wreck, gives the 15 min agro timer. Why does salvaging another players wreck not give this agro timer?
I fail to grasp why this shouldn't happen, especially in a game like eve online.

Everyone knows that sometimes the salvage is worth more then the actual loot, yet its allowed.
Everyone knows that in eve there is risk and consequences to everything you do, except this.

Especially the second reason is the one that boggles me, stealing things right under another players nose? without consequences? Concord is ingame supposed to be the police of eve, and they allow/encourage people to salvage other players stuff? that doesn't make any sense.

CCP allows it, for what reason? to give people a way to freely annoy others? I don't get it?

Creepy CousinRoger
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:39:00 - [2]
 

Wow, this is a new topic that has never been discussed on the forums before. Props for an original thread, yo.

Stepsun
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:44:00 - [3]
 

Do as I do, as soon as someone comes in to salvage, I shoot the wrecks... they never come back. Otherwise do missions with a Marauder and salvage as quickly as you shot em.

RasTrent
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:45:00 - [4]
 

Oh look more peasants grovelling about peasantry again how daft.

Efraya
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:49:00 - [5]
 

Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)

Tyburn Stannis
Caldari
Xenon Salvage Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:02:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Efraya
Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)


Garbage disposal experts of New Eden unite, we have nothing to fear but rust!

Dremox
Minmatar
Whispers From The Void
Posted - 2011.06.28 15:35:00 - [7]
 

And the only way to get it changed is that enough people stand up and give CCP / CONCORD a wakeup call to reality.

Should it be changed? I think so.
Why? Because everything in eve has a risk

If you want to steal salvage, that's fine, but you should RISK the 15 min agro timer..

I mean come on there is a reason that people can 'abandon wreck' if people don't want it, salvage away, but getting away free with stealing something, that can be worth more then 'loot' which you aren't allowed to steal?

and yes, it is stealing. Look up to Steal
The salvage / garbage to some, can in many cases be worth more then the actual loot, meaning you are taking profit away from the person that did the work to create that possible profit.

Traffic Warden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.06.28 15:46:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Dremox
everything in eve has a risk.


And by not salvaging as you go and instead coming back later in a salvage boat, you risk that your wrecks won't be there when you return.

Dremox
Minmatar
Whispers From The Void
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:40:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Traffic Warden
Originally by: Dremox
everything in eve has a risk.


And by not salvaging as you go and instead coming back later in a salvage boat, you risk that your wrecks won't be there when you return.


Not the point, there's already plenty of risk in missions.

There is no risk in stealing salvage.

Velocity Prime
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:52:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Velocity Prime on 28/06/2011 16:52:00
Originally by: Dremox
there's already plenty of risk in missions.

You're joking, right?

Originally by: Dremox
There is no risk in stealing salvage.

It's not stealing. The loot is yours, the salvage is not. That's how it works. It was changed many moons ago to work this way for a reason. Read the Dev quotes people have posted for you.

Simple as that.




Sentinel Watch
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:54:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Dremox
Originally by: Traffic Warden
Originally by: Dremox
everything in eve has a risk.


And by not salvaging as you go and instead coming back later in a salvage boat, you risk that your wrecks won't be there when you return.


Not the point, there's already plenty of risk in missions.

There is no risk in stealing salvage.


What are you flying in these missions? A comfy battleship with a nice tank? Rolling Eyes
I salvage in an unarmed frigate flying around in a level 4 mission. Plenty of times rats have jumped in and taken a shot at me taking most of my shield in one hit. That is the risk in salvaging.

Scilina
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:04:00 - [12]
 

Just be happy that they can't use a tractor beam on YOUR wrecks. They actually have to fly to them... If they choose to use a tractor beam on your wreck, they will have the 15 min agro timer :)

Mytzso
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:10:00 - [13]
 

Isn't this something poor people do?

Shigeru Potatomoto
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:11:00 - [14]
 

This again?

Michelle Devereux
Posted - 2011.06.28 18:36:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto
This again?


Apparently its the time of the month again...

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:57:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 28/06/2011 19:58:51
some people fail to realise that if salvaging was flaggable, we would have people whining about salvage flipping.Razz

lordlulzs
Posted - 2011.06.29 02:04:00 - [17]
 

As with everything in eve, ccp created the salvaging mechanic as one very efficient method of eliciting rage from others.

Do not salvage because it is fun.
Do not salvage because it gives you isk.
Do not salvage because it makes the clock click faster.

Salvage all wrecks you see to annoy others. The only worthy purpose.

That being said, troll those who salvage your wrecks, if only to make them believe they are annoying you so they continue to waste their time attempting to waste yours.

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2011.06.29 04:00:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Dremox
And the only way to get it changed is that enough people stand up and give CCP / CONCORD a wakeup call to reality.

Should it be changed? I think so.
Why? Because everything in eve has a risk

If you want to steal salvage, that's fine, but you should RISK the 15 min agro timer..

I mean come on there is a reason that people can 'abandon wreck' if people don't want it, salvage away, but getting away free with stealing something, that can be worth more then 'loot' which you aren't allowed to steal?

and yes, it is stealing. Look up to Steal
The salvage / garbage to some, can in many cases be worth more then the actual loot, meaning you are taking profit away from the person that did the work to create that possible profit.


Trust me here, you REALLY don't want it changed. You think you do now, but you really don't. I assume you've already figured out that shooting the ninja salvagers is a bad idea, right? If yes, then having the salvager flagged for theft is no different because you won't be shooting at them anyway. If you haven't figured it out, then understand this: the majority of them (possibly the vast majority) WANT you to shoot at them, because then they can kill your expensive mission ship.

Personally, I do want it changed. I want it changed just so I can read the whines after the new rules go into effect.

The Crushah
Gallente
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.06.29 04:59:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dremox
And the only way to get it changed is that enough people stand up and give CCP / CONCORD a wakeup call to reality.



Yes, because this has worked so well so far as evidenced by the events of the past month. Rolling Eyes

Get used to it Buttercup because people with far better verbal skills than you have complained about it and were shot down with ease. Perhaps a therapist can help you get past this emotional block.


Awoxina Dojona
Posted - 2011.06.29 12:10:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: RasTrent
Oh look more peasants grovelling about peasantry again how daft.


Your avatar makes me want to kick your teeth down your throat.
DIAF

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.29 12:59:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Patient 2428190 on 29/06/2011 13:00:30
If it had repercussions, you'd see more people doing it in order to bait you into aggressing them. Mission ships will die left and right.

Its not what you want. Trust me.

Edit: Only some things have repercussions. For example, items bought with Aurum are invincible.

Mytzso
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2011.06.29 14:25:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Awoxina Dojona
Your avatar makes me want to kick your teeth down your throat.
DIAF

You are what We call an angry peasant.

Awoxina Dojona
Posted - 2011.06.29 14:35:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Awoxina Dojona on 29/06/2011 15:31:06
Edited by: Awoxina Dojona on 29/06/2011 14:37:06
Originally by: Mytzso
Originally by: Awoxina Dojona
Your avatar makes me want to kick your teeth down your throat.
DIAF

You are what We call an angry peasant.



angry yes, peasant, no
i just dont like his type around me.
he looks like a weaker, more vulnerable version of my old pimp that has an unrolled condom on his eye looking for a load of something or other on his face

Signal11th
Posted - 2011.06.29 14:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dremox
And the only way to get it changed is that enough people stand up and give CCP / CONCORD a wakeup call to reality.

Should it be changed? I think so.
Why? Because everything in eve has a risk

If you want to steal salvage, that's fine, but you should RISK the 15 min agro timer..

I mean come on there is a reason that people can 'abandon wreck' if people don't want it, salvage away, but getting away free with stealing something, that can be worth more then 'loot' which you aren't allowed to steal?

and yes, it is stealing. Look up to Steal
The salvage / garbage to some, can in many cases be worth more then the actual loot, meaning you are taking profit away from the person that did the work to create that possible profit.


To Steal something is when it's yours or another person property in the first place, Salvage even if you created it is not explicity yours until you claim it (You use a salvager mod on it)

Look up Salvage rights.
Salvage belongs to the person who collects it not the person/circumstances that created it.

Leeroy McJenkins
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:53:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Dremox
And the only way to get it changed is that enough people stand up and give CCP / CONCORD a wakeup call to reality.

Should it be changed? I think so.
Why? Because everything in eve has a risk

If you want to steal salvage, that's fine, but you should RISK the 15 min agro timer..

I mean come on there is a reason that people can 'abandon wreck' if people don't want it, salvage away, but getting away free with stealing something, that can be worth more then 'loot' which you aren't allowed to steal?

and yes, it is stealing. Look up to Steal
The salvage / garbage to some, can in many cases be worth more then the actual loot, meaning you are taking profit away from the person that did the work to create that possible profit.


Maybe you should look up salvage.

They aren't stealing because they are rescuing the property from space. If you want to get real technical about it then its not really your wreck as you are in your ship. It is the wreck of the ships you destroyed hence it becomes rubbish waiting to be rescued on a first come first serve basis like it would be IRL.

TBH I would have salvaged your sh|t and looted your wreck just to get you to shoot at me. Lets be honest who the f*** actually wants high sec mission salvage anyway? Most ninjas want you to shoot so you can lose your mission ship to them, why would you want to make it easier for them to do that? Rolling Eyes


Dremox
Minmatar
Whispers From The Void
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:04:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Dremox on 29/06/2011 17:06:59
to the two above:
Salvage rights also includes what is ON a ship, if this were to translate to eve, stealing the loot from ships would be legal since its floating about in space, but it isn't.
Either one or the other is to be held true, midway is a bad way to go.

Its _VERY_ easy to spot someone that's trying to bait you into attacking them, they won't be flying a dedicated salvage ship or low end frigates, these are the people I'm most annoyed at, they salvage free of risk.

There will always in any game, be people that try to kill you for no other reason then that they 'can' do it, gankers, as I call them, however if you know what you are doing they are very easy to spot.

To give an analogy.
I consider those that steal salvage rats, like the animal, no one likes rats, and if you see one you will likely try to kill it. that's what I want, the right and chance to kill rats, without having to worry that CONCORD pops me because I do what I feel is right.

My problem lies soly with those that get away freely with taking stuff you've worked on a mission to get. Non gankers. Those that make a living out of stealing from others and getting away with it.

Gankers don't really take the time to go around and salvage/steal from more then one ship (or at least one per 15). Why would they waste time, if you arne't going to take the bait, there are others that might, and most gankers want to kill as many people as possible, to cause as much grief as possible.

Sentinel Watch
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:20:00 - [27]
 

Dremox, in a question completely unrelated to ninja salvaging, where do you run missions?

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:36:00 - [28]
 

If there's risk in missions that you get killed by the rats, there's an equal amount of risk for the ninja salvagers. Back in my salvaging days, I've had a few devious missioners warp out and leave me in a roomful of nasty warpscram frigates which nomnommed by poor salvage frigate. Sad

In fact, I could argue that it's more risky, because your ship has the tank to stand up to the rats, while ninja salvaging frigs will instapop.

Hallax
Without Borders Diversified
Posted - 2011.06.29 17:48:00 - [29]
 

Sigh. I wish salvaging wrecks was flaggable. So many more dead mission runners. Har.

I was about to say 4/10 to the OP before I realized he was serious.

Vercinget0rix
Posted - 2011.06.29 18:46:00 - [30]
 

wonderful. lets make salvaging flag for aggression so we have one more reason for mission runners to cry about getting blowed up by filthy pirates.

you wouldn't shoot at them if they were flagged anyway.


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