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Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 05:55:00 - [1]
 

I've read the dev blog "no gold ammo". I read this as there will not be 'I win' items offered for Arum. That's fine, probably good. I would love to blast noobs with the stuff who think it will make up for lack of experience but I'd be annoyed at having to have it to survive solo or small group work against experienced, monied foes.

However I think there is an excellent example to take from WoT (The clear source of the reference) EVE is hard, and rightly so. However fear of failure and loss keeps a lot of younger players hiding in Hi-Sec where I can't kill them. That sucks. PVP is the best part of EVE.

Solution? Take a page from WoT. Let someone with the $ buy their Gold spaceship. (Keep reading, breathe.) The premium tanks in WoT allow someone with cash to jump into an advanced battle ahead of their skill points accumulated. (rough analogy) However those tanks are not flexible in the same manner as the regular tanks.

Let Gold ships be the same. Sure you can jump straight into a battleship on day one, if you pay. However it's not modular. You get the setup that is built into the ships, and that setup only. Perhaps allow rigs, but no module swapping, at all. The devs make a balanced setup. It's not great and it's not specialized but it is also not absolutely terrible. However, all your opponents will know exactly what you are bringing to the table when you fly it.

Because the ships will not be in direct competition with the player made ships on the market the economic impact should be minimal. Drops when they explode may generate items that sell for Araum to NPC instead of ISK allowing people who hunt them to get in on that noble stuff. It gives the inexperienced a way into pvp w/o having to learn all the subtleties, and if they participate in groups, or pick their fights they can win. However those bonuses are offset by the penalties, everyone knows what you are bringing and what its weaknesses are. The ship itself is a dead end, you can't upgrade, so even if you use it to make a boatload of ISK you will spend that ISK getting ISK ships and ISK mods to do what your Araum ship does only better.

I say make 1 or 2, max, types for each race and each main class, so Frig, Cruiser, Battleship. (No destroyers or Battle cruisers).

Let the stupid thing operate at it's rated performance not pilot skill. (You can never get better or worse, say it's a non-pod ship with a crappy half pod that allows a telepresence or something. Pod is safe in dock perhaps but you suffer because you don't get your abilities/implants/drugs.)

They could use the same ship models, new name and maybe skin, or have an excuse to add cool looking new models to the game.

-Galan

Irie Irie Irie
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:03:00 - [2]
 

No words can express how truly dumb this idea is.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:04:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
No words can express how truly dumb this idea is.


That's because the idea isn't dumb. If it were you'd have found some words, or are you slow?

Arias Dren
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:05:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
No words can express how truly dumb this idea is.



...what this man said, and he's being extremely kind to you, OP. Razz

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:06:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Arias Dren
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
No words can express how truly dumb this idea is.



...what this man said, and he's being extremely kind to you, OP. Razz


I'm serious,if you can explain a reason sure I'm content to be shown wrong. But to just say, "you're dumb" that makes you an ass, not me.

Be critical, but be specific or your just passing text based gas.

Anon Forumalt6858
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:08:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Galan Amarias
Originally by: Arias Dren
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
No words can express how truly dumb this idea is.



...what this man said, and he's being extremely kind to you, OP. Razz


I'm serious,if you can explain a reason sure I'm content to be shown wrong. But to just say, "you're dumb" that makes you an ass, not me.

Be critical, but be specific or your just passing text based gas.



They're right, it's pretty dumb.

Arias Dren
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:10:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Galan Amarias
Originally by: Arias Dren
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
No words can express how truly dumb this idea is.



...what this man said, and he's being extremely kind to you, OP. Razz


I'm serious,if you can explain a reason sure I'm content to be shown wrong. But to just say, "you're dumb" that makes you an ass, not me.

Be critical, but be specific or your just passing text based gas.




Read this please, then have a good, long hard think about whether you really want to endorse what you are suggesting, as a player of EVE-Online.

Kaal Redrum
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:15:00 - [8]
 

It doesnt have to be that convulated - thats why theyre calling it dumb, not to mention it rips the entire idea of 'sandbox'.

Youre talking about 2 different things, as i see it:

1. Gold ships i.e. skins/paint jobs for ships one can fly. Should be a very popular addition to the Nex store. As long as they make it some kind of 'kit', which requires minerals/manufacturing, so the EVE market isnt bypassed.

2. Selling skillpoints on the Nex store i.e. a 1 day newb, pays X $ and now has all the skills necessary fly, say a Raven, with Level 4 related skills (premium price for level 5). This will open a can of shi-tstorm. I have my reasons for not having a problem with this, IF implemented correctly. (e.g. limit on ONE level 5 skill purchase per month or per 2 months or some cap to avoid 1 day old pilots flying Nyx's) Im sure others exist, who will absolutely despise the idea.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:17:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Arias Dren
Originally by: Galan Amarias
Originally by: Arias Dren
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
No words can express how truly dumb this idea is.



...what this man said, and he's being extremely kind to you, OP. Razz


I'm serious,if you can explain a reason sure I'm content to be shown wrong. But to just say, "you're dumb" that makes you an ass, not me.

Be critical, but be specific or your just passing text based gas.




Read this please, then have a good, long hard think about whether you really want to endorse what you are suggesting, as a player of EVE-Online.


I read the article, is your point in the comentary or was your point that lots of people are really worked up over the internet spaceships game?

Arias Dren
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:19:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Arias Dren on 28/06/2011 06:20:51
Originally by: Kaal Redrum
It doesnt have to be that convulated - thats why theyre calling it dumb, not to mention it rips the entire idea of 'sandbox'.

Youre talking about 2 different things, as i see it:

1. Gold ships i.e. skins/paint jobs for ships one can fly. Should be a very popular addition to the Nex store. As long as they make it some kind of 'kit', which requires minerals/manufacturing, so the EVE market isnt bypassed.

2. Selling skillpoints on the Nex store i.e. a 1 day newb, pays X $ and now has all the skills necessary fly, say a Raven, with Level 4 related skills (premium price for level 5). This will open a can of shi-tstorm. I have my reasons for not having a problem with this, IF implemented correctly. (e.g. limit on ONE level 5 skill purchase per month or per 2 months or some cap to avoid 1 day old pilots flying Nyx's) Im sure others exist, who will absolutely despise the idea.



Alot of people would love your idea. I suppose you're just unlucky dude, that it was the people who -did- reply to your post that did (eg. us)... Lol.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am 100% not-negotiating at all over MTs. They're simply gone entirely or I am.

Your idea may have alot of merit to people who find themselves in a different 'position' on the whole issue... and I apologize if we hijacked a thread you genuinely wanted to have feedback on from people closer to your own perspective.


PS: In answer to your question, the entire article is my answer.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:20:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Kaal Redrum
It doesnt have to be that convulated - thats why theyre calling it dumb, not to mention it rips the entire idea of 'sandbox'.

Youre talking about 2 different things, as i see it:

1. Gold ships i.e. skins/paint jobs for ships one can fly. Should be a very popular addition to the Nex store. As long as they make it some kind of 'kit', which requires minerals/manufacturing, so the EVE market isnt bypassed.

2. Selling skillpoints on the Nex store i.e. a 1 day newb, pays X $ and now has all the skills necessary fly, say a Raven, with Level 4 related skills (premium price for level 5). This will open a can of shi-tstorm. I have my reasons for not having a problem with this, IF implemented correctly. (e.g. limit on ONE level 5 skill purchase per month or per 2 months or some cap to avoid 1 day old pilots flying Nyx's) Im sure others exist, who will absolutely despise the idea.


1, I'm all for fancy skins, I don't think anyone is too worked up over that, then again some idiot buying a monocle ****ed people off so some folks can get worked up over anything.

2, My idea is not quite a skill buy. You get a ship, the ship functions at, say level 3 or 4 of effective skills and pilot gets a get out of podded free card.

The trade off is a generalist setup that everyone will know and you can never advance the ship.

It gives rich folk a taste of the game but has relatively little impact on regular play as those tasting will either quit, or want to buy real ships and go to with their skills.

What am I missing?

-Galan

Akrosi
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:20:00 - [12]
 

THIS ISN'T A FREE TO PLAY GAME!

Now Gtfo.

Maken Cheese
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:24:00 - [13]
 

If anything, they shouldn't be selling actual ships for aurum, they should sell BPCs. That way people still need to acquire the materials to build the ship (either from buying them or mining them). Additionally, the ships sold from the NEX should be similar in layout and effective HP to their standard versions, but have different bonuses. So that way, they're not inherently better than their standard T1 counterparts, they just have different roles to fulfill.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Arias Dren
Alot of people would love your idea. I suppose you're just unlucky dude, that it was the people who -did- reply to your post that did (eg. us)... Lol.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am 100% not-negotiating at all over MTs. They're simply gone entirely or I am.

Your idea may have alot of merit to people who find themselves in a different 'position' on the whole issue... and I apologize if we hijacked a thread you genuinely wanted to have feedback on from people closer to your own perspective.


PS: In answer to your question, the entire article is my answer.


Fair enough, and quite frankly the bumps and number of reads went up massively when you guys jumped in so I'm happy to have had you.

I understand some folks want nothing to do with MT, I think it's going to happen regardless so I'd like to channel it into something that will make more PVP happen w/o unbalanced horror.

Of course having said that one of my favorite things about pvp in eve is that it gets horrifically unbalanced. At least if you think there ought to be 'fair fights'.

Irie Irie Irie
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:30:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Irie Irie Irie on 28/06/2011 06:32:58
Originally by: Galan Amarias
2, My idea is not quite a skill buy. You get a ship, the ship functions at, say level 3 or 4 of effective skills and pilot gets a get out of podded free card.

If it worked at 0 level skills then maybe it would be worthwhile just to see you do frigate damage, if you could even track. Otherwise jumping into the equivalent of about 40m sp's worth of effective fleet member just by cracking out daddy's credit card? no and GTFO.

I don't see how you can claim something is NOT a skill buy and yet expect to get the benefit of skill bonuses beyond your characters means.

EDIT: JESUS F CHRIST you are also suggesting a get out of podded free card. Do you realise how many people would just load up HG sets and pay to never get podded.

This just further proves my theory that people should be forced to take an I.Q. test prior to allowing them free reign on the forums.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:30:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Maken Cheese
If anything, they shouldn't be selling actual ships for aurum, they should sell BPCs. That way people still need to acquire the materials to build the ship (either from buying them or mining them). Additionally, the ships sold from the NEX should be similar in layout and effective HP to their standard versions, but have different bonuses. So that way, they're not inherently better than their standard T1 counterparts, they just have different roles to fulfill.


Not a bad idea but this only provides an arum sink for industrialists. And the fashion hungry I suppose. My idea lets them get into fights but without any special advantage, and many disadvantages, except they get there early.

As a trade off the community gets a way to harvest arum w/o actually paying real monies for it. I don't know about you but it'll be a cold day in hell before I shell out more cash for eve.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:34:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
Originally by: Galan Amarias
2, My idea is not quite a skill buy. You get a ship, the ship functions at, say level 3 or 4 of effective skills and pilot gets a get out of podded free card.

If it worked at 0 level skills then maybe it would be worthwhile just to see you do frigate damage, if you could even track. Otherwise jumping into the equivalent of about 40m sp's worth of effective fleet member just by cracking out daddy's credit card? no and GTFO.

I don't see how you can claim something is NOT a skill buy and yet expect to get the benefit of skill bonuses beyond your characters means.


Simple, a skill buy implies that you get the sp permanently added to your character. My idea gives you access to try the skills but goes away when the ship explodes. It also locks you into an ok, but not great, set of skills. Perhaps we could call it a skill lease.

(40 million?!) Seriously?! WTF did you smoke for that number. You can be at level 3's in a BS with 10 million. 40 has you in level 5's near across the board,

HOWEVER you'd still be flying the equivalent of a stock T1 so most of those 'bought skills' you'd need to compete with say, my Armageddon setup, would be pointless.

Add to that, no implants or drugs and it's reasonable. Provides a taste of bigger better things and keeps folks playing, or weeds em out early. Both are a bonus to the community.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:36:00 - [18]
 

There's a lot of things wrong with what you're suggesting.

1. WoT is a very different game from EVE. It uses a matchmaker to balance tanks, meaning that if one team has a stupidly-overpowered gold tank, generally so does the other.

2. EVE is rock-paper-scissors, not my-peen-is-bigger. When I'm in a battleship it's not the other battleships I'm afraid of, it's the frigates and cruisers. It's not the battleships we primary, either, but rather the logistics and ewar, the bubblers and tacklers et. al. Battleships are useless without support, and the first ships someone should be flying into battle in EVE are not big ships, but rather light tacklers, cheap ewar platforms and cruisers.

3. A "balanced" ship in EVE is a ship that serves no purpose. All ships are specialized. You tank one way at a time, you shoot one way at a time. If you're doing ewar you're generally focused on only one *kind* of ewar. If you're not specializing your ship for your intended role, you're not even playing the game.

4. Why would spending real money on a ship make you *more* likely to send it into a fight? Oh. Do you mean missioning? You see nothing wrong with someone getting the rewards of L4 missions without earning the isk to buy their first battleship?

This idea is daft, and that's being kind.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:38:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
Edited by: Irie Irie Irie on 28/06/2011 06:32:58
EDIT: JESUS F CHRIST you are also suggesting a get out of podded free card. Do you realise how many people would just load up HG sets and pay to never get podded.

This just further proves my theory that people should be forced to take an I.Q. test prior to allowing them free reign on the forums.


Don't be naive. Let them. How does that hurt you, a bunch of rich idiots fly a mediocre ship and don't get podded. You blow up rich ships and have access to their money for your own whatever. OR you sell the Araum and buy plex and play for free of rich idiot ship kills.

-Galan,

p.s. I'll match IQ with the likes of you any day, or we can meet in-game and you can prove my point.

Irie Irie Irie
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:40:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Galan Amarias
Add to that, no implants or drugs and it's reasonable. Provides a taste of bigger better things and keeps folks playing, or weeds em out early. Both are a bonus to the community.


The second people realise its a pay to win, on top of a subscription you guarantee to 'weed em out early'.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:45:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
Originally by: Galan Amarias
Add to that, no implants or drugs and it's reasonable. Provides a taste of bigger better things and keeps folks playing, or weeds em out early. Both are a bonus to the community.


The second people realise its a pay to win, on top of a subscription you guarantee to 'weed em out early'.


I see a future where major coalitions offer ship replacement for suicide-ganking MTers in high-sec.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:48:00 - [22]
 

thank you for a constructive post.

Originally by: Maman Brigitte
There's a lot of things wrong with what you're suggesting.

1. WoT is a very different game from EVE. It uses a matchmaker to balance tanks, meaning that if one team has a stupidly-overpowered gold tank, generally so does the other.


I take it you haven't played WoT. The gold tanks suck. They are almost unilaterally either under gunned or under armored. It's a way to try something bigger but it's also a dead end. (Though they can let you play in the class you want ahead of when you earned it and help you earn it as a back fill.)

Originally by: Maman Brigitte

2. EVE is rock-paper-scissors, not my-peen-is-bigger. When I'm in a battleship it's not the other battleships I'm afraid of, it's the frigates and cruisers. It's not the battleships we primary, either, but rather the logistics and ewar, the bubblers and tacklers et. al. Battleships are useless without support, and the first ships someone should be flying into battle in EVE are not big ships, but rather light tacklers, cheap ewar platforms and cruisers.


EVE is many things and all ships have use. The things you suggest a new player do are currently available. If a new player wants to see the role of BS in their gang though they have to watch someone else drive. For me the first ships a newbie should fly are fast tackle and bait, however some people are willing to shell out cash to try something else. It takes months to be able to properly fly even a T1 BS, let em get a taste, albeit less effective than someone who spent the months. If your objection is it's not as good, I'd say that's a selling point.

Originally by: Maman Brigitte

3. A "balanced" ship in EVE is a ship that serves no purpose. All ships are specialized. You tank one way at a time, you shoot one way at a time. If you're doing ewar you're generally focused on only one *kind* of ewar. If you're not specializing your ship for your intended role, you're not even playing the game.


Not quite, while you are exactly right specialization is key to winning a generalist is not a bad thing when you don't know what your up against. We can argue that as an intelligence failure but there is room for them. I'm not suggesting these ships be quad tanked with multi weapon systems, just able to hit at medium range, with an ok tank and reasonable, but not op dps and defense.

Originally by: Maman Brigitte

4. Why would spending real money on a ship make you *more* likely to send it into a fight? Oh. Do you mean missioning? You see nothing wrong with someone getting the rewards of L4 missions without earning the isk to buy their first battleship?

If they want to mission with it, so be it. The mission adds loots and such to the economy and detracts from no ones experience. What specific thing bothers you about this, you suffered so they should to? I didn't object to the skill point changes and I started back when the new experience was "good luck" and off you go. It does not bother me that someone could theoretically play with NPC a week or two, or even months before I could. Missions suck.

Originally by: Maman Brigitte

This idea is daft, and that's being kind.


I disagree, but such is life.

-Galan

Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:50:00 - [23]
 

Better idea >>> No.

Irie Irie Irie
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:52:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Galan Amarias
p.s. I'll match IQ with the likes of you any day, or we can meet in-game and you can prove my point.

lol

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:52:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
Originally by: Galan Amarias
Add to that, no implants or drugs and it's reasonable. Provides a taste of bigger better things and keeps folks playing, or weeds em out early. Both are a bonus to the community.


The second people realise its a pay to win, on top of a subscription you guarantee to 'weed em out early'.


Are you even reading the limitations on the idea? It's not "pay to win". It is "pay to play early." Are you one of those people who thinks in other peoples sound bites?


Kuronaga
Black Snake Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 07:04:00 - [26]
 

*eats popcorn*

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:13:00 - [27]
 

Shameless bump

Tro Aele
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:28:00 - [28]
 

Logical idea, worth talking about.

I think I'm against it, but I'm not hating on it.

One thing about WOT, in my limited experience, is the short, forced-balanced battles. Eve in longer-term, always unbalanced, and so intricately interrelated that I think gold ships would throw things for quite a loop. I don't know what you'd do about skill level requirements, for example.

I suppose it would be comedy-prone if the gold ships were pretty normal but allowed pilots without the normal skills.




Ezra Vouland
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:37:00 - [29]
 

The whole pay to win thing is just mindless fear mongering.

You can "pay to win" with plex as is. Although the typical case with these dudes with3 bil fitted officer machs and vindis with low SP and no experience is my buddies and I end up with soem new officer gear.

Galan Amarias
Amarr
Kantian Principle
Posted - 2011.06.28 19:43:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Tro Aele
Logical idea, worth talking about.

I think I'm against it, but I'm not hating on it.

One thing about WOT, in my limited experience, is the short, forced-balanced battles. Eve in longer-term, always unbalanced, and so intricately interrelated that I think gold ships would throw things for quite a loop. I don't know what you'd do about skill level requirements, for example.

I suppose it would be comedy-prone if the gold ships were pretty normal but allowed pilots without the normal skills.






I agree there would be some epic fail as inexperienced noobs get a fleet of these and try pvp, however. If they had coms and some conesion and a decent fc they might just do well. Either way it seems a plus to tbe overall eve experience to me.

I advocate no skill req to use. Though perhaps a tier 1 skill to be able. Have it open classes of ship per level.


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