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J Kunjeh
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:25:00 - [241]

Great post White Tree. I thank all of the CSM for the work they will do at this summit and for putting RL on hold to attend on such short notice. I feel that something good for all parties will come out of this.

This post here sums up how I feel about this summit:

Originally by: Nuramori
Edited by: Nuramori on 28/06/2011 03:55:59
Since you're headed there, I think the mindset should be less of negotiations, and more of braintrust, with the goal of working for a common good. CCP wants to be financially sound, and the user base wants CCP to be financially sound, or we lose the game. We lose development and improvement. CCP needs us, we need them. Mutual goals, mutual needs.

After all the words that have flown by, and all the actions that have taken place, the results of a working session that results in everyone being happy would be a fantastic PR move. It would SHOW the rest of the industry that there is no one side that needs to win, that it's a synergistic relationship that needs to be fostered.

Jaxom Asgard
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:27:00 - [242]

Edited by: Jaxom Asgard on 28/06/2011 09:41:30
Edited by: Jaxom Asgard on 28/06/2011 09:30:29
Edited by: Jaxom Asgard on 28/06/2011 09:27:34
Great advice White Tree. I wish people would just wait to see what comes of the Emergency CSM

Sadly the rabbit mob isn’t going to take it, as they are so ‘outraged’ by CCP’s actions (I guess they would prefer to see CCP fail, and there be no EVE, just so they can say 'I told you so'), and they’re having a lot of fun being self-important and causing a riot.

We do in fact have a lot of the answers to the burning questions, just not in a black and white one liner, and to be honest I don’t think you will get that at the Emergency CSM meeting either.
Of course there is another problem here too now, a lot of these people are stating that they do not trust or believe anything CCP or the CSM, say and it appears that they are not willing to listen or give anymore chances. If that is the case I guess they will be leaving permanently, if that will have an effect on CCP’s bottom line, only CCP know. Personally I hope that people will take the time to calm down a bit, and give this meeting a chance.

The games industry is changing, and there has been rightly or wrongly a move towards MiroTransactions for a lot of reasons, (discussed and linked else where).

CCP like all companies has a business model, these models evolve and change, CCP’s model now involves increasing the number of titles that it owns. They see this as the way forward to ensure the continued future of the company. Now if you agree with that or not, it is route that they have chosen to go, and it’s not going to change now. It is naive to think that things will never change or evolve, (if they don't they will die out).

What we might see are changes around the edges and ways to make it easier for the EVE community to swallow. (Indeed a lot of these are being developed, as per the exchange of new shinny gold Scorpion for a bog standard one)

What CCP’s biggest issue as been here, (from my point of view), is communication, they haven’t done it very well, they never have, they do however try to keep us informed, do you want them to have a big slimy PR Department that makes our skins craw with carefully worded politician statements?

Warriors tribe
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:27:00 - [243]

CCP has a track record of not giving a **** about their customers desires unless their bottom line is threatened. And thats to be expected from any modern corporation. They have their plans, and we are simply a means to an end.

Any talk about passion and heart that CCP employees have for the game is just empty wind pretending to be music. It doesn't matter. Its not that they messed up, its that for a while they haven't given a **** about what they promised years ago and now their hidden nature is simply expressing itself.

And since we are dealing in those cold, heartless realities there is little reason to invest any more time into EvE until there is real evidence that the game will stay what it was promised to be from the beginning. I guess it was naive and stupid to believe that values that were antagonous to EVE just few years ago would eventually be considered for implementation.

IMVU un space? P2W? To quote my favorite dark night Blade - "Mother****er are you out of your damn mind?"

I am just a drop in the ocean, but this drop will be spending his EVEnings playing other games for a while. Its actually a happy event all this. It exposed CCP and their mindset. Truth is bitter like good medicine.


Icecold Spacebeer
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:28:00 - [244]

I´m with you how you feel about the whole affair. But saying we would "hate CCP" is oversimplifying. The whole s***storm and the protests are a sign how disappointed we are with CCP. Judging on their actions, you could as well say that CCP hates its customer base and looks down on us.

As Yarrrrrhh stated here all this would have never happened if CCP had been honest and a lot of us would just buy their ship paintjobs and be happy about it.

CCP has the ball now and it all depends on them. Can their management stop acting like a c*c*ine snortin maniac with communication disorder an a serious loss of reality?

Both my accounts are cancelled right now (posting with the char that has some time on his plex left) and I see my sub fee as an investment into EVE and CCP (in the end its us who pays their salary). I´m ready to resub at any moment, I even wouldn´t mind doubling my sub fee or spending real cash for senseless funny stuff (paint jobs, engine trails, hot underwear for my female chars, posters of ponies in my CQ) if the company needs the money and explains it to us. But ATM I´m not sure if they take us seriously and I don´t see my money well-invested into them.

Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:29:00 - [245]

Tbh CSM, this is what I would like to see at the end of this:

- A reason to resub, ie eve staying the lovely sandbox we started out with (doubtful tbh seeing the CCP reactions so far)
- Not just the final conclusion of the CSM meeting the coming days, but also the different iterations before CCP claims the CSM agreed. I would love to see the different stages CCP suggests and your starting points.

As people get older, they naturally get more bitter, but this is 95% CCP's doing.

I have no clue if I can ever trust CCP as a company again, nor will I be able to respect the CSM if they stay should this go all wrong (ie CCP just gets CSM over to PR stunt).

Posted - 2011.06.28 09:29:00 - [246]

Originally by: Zammo Bahrut
I await with baited breath.

I love eve, I love the marketeering, I love/hate the scammers, I love 'grinding' the missions, I love the pvp. I (used) to love the ship spinning...

I love the people of eve, It would be a damnable shame to see a game that I've enjoyed for so long take a wrong turn.

White Tree, you have my support and I truely hope that the right thing is done.

Love it

I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:36:00 - [247]

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Well, at least we know that one CSM member is completely useless and that this won't end well.

This CSM = Cindy Lou Who

CCP = The Grinch

You must remember though, Cindy Lou Who did win the Grinch over in the end. Wink

Lug Thorne
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:38:00 - [248]

A good post White Tree and a sensible attitude.

Tell them that next time there is a patch they'd better be there to answer questions afterwards, not go quiet for two days.

Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:41:00 - [249]

Any CSM member I can actually pay attention to around/willing to post?

Not listening to a Testie.

Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:42:00 - [250]

Originally by: White Tree
So here we stand now at a crossroads. We've had documentation on the state of internal dialog with CCP made public, we've had analyses of CCPs 'apparent' financial affairs, we've caused a thunderous rumble that the entire gaming world has paid attention too. We've brought Jita to a halt and our collective outrage has caused CCP to stop on a dime and swing towards us with open ears. The CSM has been summoned for an emergency meeting, something that has only happened once before.

So now it may be time to reflect on what we've done. As a community we've come together to express our collective outrage, something I'm personally impressed and excited about. That seems strange though, to use the word 'excited', doesn't it? It's not that I'm not worried but my 'excitement' comes from this communities ability to be so loud, so mighty and so powerful that for brief moments in time we are nothing short of glorious supernovae in the proverbial galaxy of pinpoints that is gaming as a medium.

So, what do we do now? For me, and as many of the CSMs that can make it we will carry the torch of outrage to CCP. We'll stand at Zeus's foot and in your name we'll roar so loud that Olympus will shake. But this is where your opinions and mine may diverge, friends. I don't see our custodians of content as enemies. I can't because I've seen CCP Soundwave reminisce with CSM Seleene about some of the greatest events in EVEs history because he was there. I've sat and talked to CCP Tallest about how this game is balanced, and when I thought he might be getting bored of me he pulled me back because he wanted to talk about EVE with the sort of passion only someone who plaid the damn game would have. I've watched CCP Hilmar (an enemy as we've made him) tell The Mittani about how people in the gaming industry laughed at him when he talked about EVE, and yet here we all are. We walked through the art department knowing that these people spend many a night actually sleeping at the office and working into the wee hours because this was and still is their passion.

CCP isn't really an enemy to me and hey I'm sorry if you don't like that. CCP isn't infallible, they've boned this one, yeah I'm going to tell you that because its the truth. But they've never been infallible, so its our job to make sure that we steer them in the right direction because without the community Captaining this great ship to her ports of call we're all going to sink.

So what I'm asking you for now, as your CSM, as a member of the community and as an EVE player is a moment of patience. They know they fumbled the ball and they're calling half-time to sort their heads and we're going to be the coach that gives them the pep talk and sets them straight so that we, the denizens of New Eden can continue to enjoy this entirely unique and intricate experience.

Nice speech. I'm still watching what they do, not what they say.

Blue Harrier
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:43:00 - [251]

Good luck with your endeavours White Tree but I’m sorry to say I think CCP are too far down the road to turn back now.

Over the last few patches there has been a steady ‘nerf’ of ISK earnings in various parts of the game. This has reduced the ‘earning power’ of just about everyone but most of all the 0.0 corporations. Exactly as CCP planed, this reduction in earning power opens the door to corporation and alliance needing extra ‘goodies’ to give then the competitive advantage over their foes in the game world.

As others have pointed out the CQ being forced on us has proved this beyond a doubt. We already had a ‘Leave Ship’ option in the right click menus, how simple would it have been for the Devs to connect this to the CQ, but no, it’s CQ or be ‘shown the door’.

I thought the original idea of the ‘Store Front’ was a place where players could sell ‘branded’ items made by themselves with minor upgrades to players, not a place for CCP to magic items out of thin air to give players an ‘I Win’ button.

Whatever you do it will be a compromise and more for CCP’s benefit than ours. I hope you will be ‘allowed’ to report the full facts but having seen the so called Dev Blogs of the last week I think we had better get used to the ‘mushroom syndrome’ i.e. kept in the dark and fed loads of brown stuff.

Alpine 69
Rubbish Superheroes
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:50:00 - [252]

I do agree with White Tree here.

Don't mess this up, CCP. And the same goes for you CSM, there's a lot in your hands right now.

Kristina Vanszar
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:52:00 - [253]

The EVE Community, making our game worth playing since '03!

Good luck guys, save eve, sve us, save CCP.
I'm lucky, that i was able to do my 0.02 ISK for this!

Posted - 2011.06.28 09:53:00 - [254]

Really well said.

(I really wish that CSM were more utilized. I think there's tremendous value to be found in them)

I also think it'd be cool to have a hybrid between CSM and developer or mostly just see the CSM role get a more hands on or involved voice into the future of Eve.

Essentially... their opinion matters well before crisis. Their voice matters well before crisis. It just took or takes (currently) crisis to listen (or value).

Red Sky Morning
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:01:00 - [255]

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. CCP doesn't need a CSM meeting to say "we will never allow cash purchases of items with any in-game effect". You have a job to do in convincing them to fix the item shop in general, but there is absolutely no reason that we should have to wait for a simple answer to our most important concern.

The longer CCP stays silent, the more it convinces us that this CSM meeting is nothing more than propaganda that will have no impact on the eventual decision to allow the purchase of in-game advantages.

This is a +1

I will not re sub until after we get word. And if we don't I won't

Posted - 2011.06.28 10:02:00 - [256]

Well Whitetree I wish you luck in your endeavours.

I myself have played EvE since 2004, I've introduced numerous people to eve as a game including my father and two brothers and we have all come recently to the same conclusion.
The excitement of eve and the 'fun' of the game has seriously become second on the list of improvements in the CCP folder of game expansion.

We use eve for a lot more than just gaming, communication around the world with family and friends whilst having the fun of blowing them out of the space lanes or teaming up to do the same to a few russian bears if we can.

I really hope that you can get across to CCP that we the gamers love eve for it's stand alone game play and heart thumping, back aching adrenaline rush it creates when under pressure in immense fleet fights or stand alone pvp.

Lately this 'rush' has been on a low and game content has felt seriously flat, bugs from 6 years ago still exist and the excitement no longer feels as palpable.
I still love eve as a game (and yes tried wow too) and for the moment will be hanging around to see just what happens.

A lot now rides on the results of your meeting with CCP both for me and for my family as we are all just a little discontented right now with something that we purposly pay for and set time aside to 'play'.

Tor Cool

Posted - 2011.06.28 10:05:00 - [257]

Good luck White Tree, you have my vote. My only two-cents into the matter would be try getting CCP promises in writing.

Cheers (I'll drink a pint or two for you m8 Cool)

Chia Mulholland
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:11:00 - [258]

I don't see CCP as our enemy. I know they love Eve. The problem, as I see it, is that they love their vision of Dust and WoD even more and are focusing their resources on those two games rather than on Eve.

And now they've invested so much time and money in those two new games that it's going to be very hard for them to shift focus back to Eve.

But I wish you and the rest of the CSM the best of luck in getting them to put more energy into Eve.

Posted - 2011.06.28 10:11:00 - [259]

Hoping something good comes of this meeting.

At first I thought it was merley hearsay that CSMs were called to Iceland.

If nothing we have CCPs attention. Let us hope we come to an agreement regarding our outcry.

Elaine Solarheart
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:14:00 - [260]

Kristina Vanszar
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:19:00 - [261]

If this workes out well,

we will see a new player flood, becouse if CCP can get a to a compromiss with us, that would make news like "CCP listens to they're community, negotiations successfull" or "CCP Games gives they're players what they want"

If i see news like that on the internet, i'd try the game no matter what.

I hope this works out well for both sides.

Ms Freak
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:22:00 - [262]

White Tree,

I'm sure you may have already seen this but some confirmation would be nice Very Happy

There are over 16 pages of clean, rage-free constructive discussion and agreement and i think this is as good a place as any to start in addressing the issues with CCP and the community.

It's a shame to see Tobias's post - and i could not agree more with your opening statements. You have my full support at the meeting.

If there is anything you need in support of your trip please don't hesistate to ask.

Mia Wrasse
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:24:00 - [263]

Edited by: Mia Wrasse on 28/06/2011 10:25:20
*Wastes time poncing around the captains quarters looking uselessly pretty, as she readies to pack her small station containers into her Omen to move out and onto other universes*

I am one of a group of friends holding a number of accounts between us. We are all waiting on the outcome of this meeting. Sad to see it come to this. But the feet will do the talking if this all goes any further downhill.


Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:34:00 - [264]

White Tree, I salute you.


Also, I've been nagging all the other CSM members about getting all hairstyles and all clothes for all races. Can us gays who like to play dress-up get some love, please?

Ra Vhim
Black Bag Ops
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:43:00 - [265]

I agree that we should wait and see what is decided and what CCP do (not say). I can't really say I am hopeful though. It is just so damn much. We have the whole :18 months: neglect of Eve that most of us were willing to ignore because we trusted CCP. That trust is gone. We have seen that they are ready to risk our trust and loyalty in the hope of milking us more (and that really didn't go well). They can do this because they are fearless and go on doing whatever they feel like.

I don't even want MT in the game any longer. We have seen where the prospect of selling vanity items already lead to, they are (behind our backs) discussing ways how they can sell us fitting slots and such crap. They were tempted and already fell for temptation before MT even was part of the game! If we have MT then it will stay and be expanded upon until the end of Eve days. Does anyone believe that if they release Dust, it is a huge success and they earn more money then ever, then they will suddenly stop with the MT in Eve? No, they will expand it even more and slowly work toward SP selling. If they say that no-vanity items never will happen, then we already know it means that they will not speak about it in public but find a way to introduce it step by step behind our backs.

I must confess that I would have easier to accept MT non-vanity items if they sold BPCs instead of items. Then the players gets involved and that is only good for Eve. As it is, Incarna is all about MT. If I leave my pod then I have left Eve and the world controlled by players and entered another game. It isn't Eve and right now I am forced out of Eve every time I dock.

Finally. Even if they find some magical solution to the current crisis that make many players resub (many will still never return), what can I say about Eve and CCP to other gamers that would make them join? "Eve used to be great and player controlled", "CCP used to be great before they decided that greed is good" or perhaps "They are not sorry for what they did, only that they got caught doing it". Seriously, I used to be proud about playing Eve and used CCP as an example of a company that was commitment to players and the world.

Mater Dolorosa
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:44:00 - [266]

Why would we continue to invest in Eve Online when CCP have barely put money and ressources on it for the past 18 months and the small amount of work on it was only to implement "features" their customers didn't want ?

Borisk Zeltsh
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:45:00 - [267]

people actualy belive a word of what a goon/test member say

wow im shocked

Posted - 2011.06.28 10:46:00 - [268]

Originally by: Mater Dolorosa
Why would we continue to invest in Eve Online when CCP have barely put money and ressources on it for the past 18 months and the small amount of work on it was only to implement "features" their customers didn't want ?

I will say it again. If this is how they think of and treat the golden goose. How much worse will we be treated after they put their new games out?

Its not very promising for EvE.

Dr Lebroi
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:53:00 - [269]

I think it's important to draw a line under events and for all parties (that is CCP, players and CSM) to commit to a fresh start but what I would also like the CSM to highlight is that this is not just a one off blip.

CCP have been moving toward this point in time with determination for a number of years. That process includes but is not limited to:- lack of bug fixing and balancing for known issues, dissapointing expansions lacking the content the players hoped for, removal of financial resources and staff resources from Eve to feed other projects when Eve players pay their money for Eve NOT for vampires or FPS (will all content in WoD and Dust be free for Eve players because we've already paid for it?) and a seeming disassociation from the playerbase with an unwillingness to answer difficult questions and hard information replaced with spin and PR.

At the end of the day, the game is built on code and code can be re-written, business plans are built on ideas and ideas can be revised but in order for this to happen there needs to be a genuine commitment within CCP for a change of direction.

I know the game is old and clanky but it is still a very beautiful thing with immersion and gameplay that cannot be found anywhere else. As players we do not require you to make it look 2011 and beyond because we like it as it, all we would like to see is the resources made available to fix the things that are wrong with it and we will continue paying you whatever you feel is fair to access the world you created. Eve can still grow as real players tire of the fluff games that are out there and eventually come looking for a real challenge. It will continue to be a solid financial performer for you as long as you don't break it. You have what so many companies would kill to have, a die hard group of loyalists customers that will use your product without requiring expensive changes to it but you are on the brink of losing all that. Have you really thought through what a bad move that might be?

As Joni said, 'Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you've got till it's gone? They paved Paradise and put up a parking lot.'

Posted - 2011.06.28 10:53:00 - [270]

Originally by: White Tree
So, what do we do now?

We learn from the mistake. Realising a few things; a) CCP lies to players and won't apologize or address that, b) CSM is not the organization of transparacy we were promised.

Originally by: White Tree
So what I'm asking you for now, as your CSM, as a member of the community and as an EVE player is a moment of patience.

CSM has no room to ask for anything, until we know that CCP actually give you guys some respect, and transparancy. Until then, CSM is as useless as CCP statements and patience (read: silence) is the worst thing we could do.

Until CCP has won back confidence, by somehow un-doing their lies, (and if CSM is going to be involved, make sure they actually do get the role they were put to do), the best thing we as players could do is to speak. Not with words on forums, but ingame. Jita protests is just one such thing. Not touching AUR another. Cancelling subscriptions another option.

That'd be a starters, it can and should escalate from that, if we keep getting nonsense replies, and a statement from CSM will mean nothing if we don't know we can trust CCP to begin with.

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