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Imryn Xaran
Caldari
Coherent Light Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:03:00 - [421]
 

I think it is a complete waste of time going to iceland because at this point in time CCP is probably locked into their current course by ties much stronger than loyalty to the EVE community - money.

They have made financial commitments that they have to honour, and part of those commitments will have been to submit a buisness plan for approval. They don't have the option to significantly modify that business plan without renegotiating the terms of their loan, and if they do that they run the risk of the loan being called due.

To be honest, we should have seen this coming a while ago. CCP used to say that they thought they could keep EVE going forever, but when was the last time we heard that? Other games companies use a buisness model where they invest in developing an MMO, market it and develope it while the player base is high, then milk it dry and drop it when player interest declines, and move on to the next project.

CCP didn't do that; but then they did.

EVE subscriptions are now paying to service the loans that are paying for the developement of two other games, and obviously it isn't enough. On top of that we can see that most of CCP's developers are working on these other games and not on EVE, except where EVE can be used as a test bed for features in the other games, such as the whole carbon UI / WIS thing. It brings nothing to EVE, but is crucial for both the other games.

Can anyone remember the last expansion that actually made any fundamental changes to EVE gameplay?

I have no hope whatsoever that the CSM can make any headway in these negotiations because I don't believe that CCP has any choices left - they have painted themselves into corner and have no choice but to "stay the course" and hope they can raise enough money through MT to survive.

3 accounts unsubbed.

Mylene Fury
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:14:00 - [422]
 

Heard? Yes.... And then ignored...........

Mechero
Gallente
Razorback Industrial
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:18:00 - [423]
 

I think Keanu said it best. "Whoa"

Nizran L'Crit
Caldari
Eternal Guardians
Bloodbound.
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:22:00 - [424]
 

White Tree, this question is directed at you. Will you please, please, please speak with them about actually spending a much larger portion of dev time in creating new, exciting content for the spaceship game we all know and love, not the space barbies WiS which, while cool, is being implemented before they even get their core game fixed?

They need to reallocate money and time into providing us new experiences in a timely fashion and then use the rest of the development money to work on the other games. I realize that they are trying to expand their company, but in the process, it feels like they're thumbing their nose at us by delivering sub-par, horrible content in the process...and we are their entire revenue at this point.

MT be damned, if they don't make a P2W atmosphere, I could care less if they have $600 monocles, it doesn't make me want to purchase it. My problem is the direction they are moving development-wise in not making EVE an experience that continues with new content. Please for the love of god, try to make them understand that a lot of us don't care about the price of a monocle, we care about our money not being put back into the product we are using. That's what made me cancel my sub and will make me resub if they start providing that content.

BTW, a bug fix IS NOT NEW CONTENT :P

Do that and you have my vote for life. -.-!

TK420
Caldari
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:29:00 - [425]
 

The reason I respect CCP is because even when all the industry is going to ****, they held their ground. CCP created and maintained a game that was for the hardcore gamers out there that didn't want instant gratification. They respected their loyal customers and didn't force some bull**** store that took away from the content that I am paying for.

Is that going to change? Is CCP going to take the path that SOE took EQ2 on? What choice do I have then? I loved EQ2, as I love playing EVE, but if they are headed down the same path then I am required to quit.

I respect that CCP has had a long history of catering to the MMO audience that I belong to, and they've been rewarded with my loyalty because of it. If that is coming to an end, then so is my subscription.

General Xenophon
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:38:00 - [426]
 

Please use this as a guideline at the very least: What we want

naturally it won't represent what EVERYONE wants, but then again the people who don't care what happens to Eve, don't matter.

Stormchyld
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:54:00 - [427]
 

Originally by: derivativo
Originally by: the plague
Edited by: the plague on 28/06/2011 15:09:38
Originally by: White Tree
If this is just a simple PR move then yeah, we're going to be equally upset but I maintain hope that it isn't. That's my job broseph, to keep hope alive.


I'm sorry, White Tree, but I see no logical reason to give either the CSM or CCP the benefit of the doubt at this time. CCP has clearly demonstrated over the past two years it either doesn't understand what players want or doesn't care. Either situation is rather depressing and there is every possibility that personnel changes will have to occur in order to bring about the kind of shift in focus and design philosophy the players are obviously seeking here. And without significant external pressure, there is zero chance CCP will elect to make such changes on their own simply because "they've heard us." It's naive to believe that.

Second, as your initial post makes clear, you view these problems from a far different perspective than the vast majority of EVE players. For us, CCP is a company we purchase entertainment services from and with which we have a common investment of time, energy, and money. But for you they are your friends and drinking buddies. It is not my intention to sound harsh, but this is one of the primary problems with the entire CSM system as it currently exists. By flying CSM members to Iceland and turning the process into a drunkfest, CCP turns the CSM into a travesty and it's obvious the members become beholden to CCP very quickly. You can deny that all you want, but your denials will fall on deaf ears because we all see it a thousand times a day in the world of politics and the CSM is hardly immune to the same petty conflicts of interest.

Frankly, the entire process appears to be little more than a PR stunt designed to keep EVE Online in the pages of the gaming press. And I say that as someone who championed the idea of the CSM and has tirelessly defended the concepts behind this type of developer/player relationship. But somewhere along the line the relationship went off the rails. It appears to many that CCP is managed like a frat house full of college boys more interested in partying with friends than doing the day to day work that will keep EVE on the cutting edge of the MMO scene. There's absolutely nothing unique or cool about flying to Iceland and getting drunk. There is, however, something unique and cool about EVE Online, and protecting the ideas that made it great is what we're interested in.

Finally, we don't need you to tell us to chill out. The CSM didn't see these problems coming, nor has the CSM/CCP interaction been successful in changing CCP's direction and thinking. We don't need you to tell CCP why we're upset. Trust me, they've heard us! What we need the CSM to do (or at least attempt to do) is help bring about the kind of paradigm shift in thinking that will return EVE to its roots. Short of that, anything that comes out of this meeting will be little more than damage control and spin mixed with some minor concessions. If that's all the CSM is capable of then you're wasting our time. In short, the CSM did little to head off these problems and it did nothing to help generate the energy behind this virtual "revolution." Bottom line: You didn't help start it so don't presume to tell us when to end it.

Stop partying with CCP and acting like they're your buddies. We elected you to represent our EVE Online interests, not represent us at the pub. Our collective outrage and actions have given the CSM a golden opportunity to finally speak with authority to CCP. Don't waste it! Or simply admit there's little you can do and stay out of the way.


+1


...+1 .. very well put. after the COO gave an interview to some local newspaper (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541933) I see the trip to iceland as a PR stunt as well. I hope the translation is wrong

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:58:00 - [428]
 

Originally by: General Xenophon
Please use this as a guideline at the very least: What we want

naturally it won't represent what EVERYONE wants, but then again the people who don't care what happens to Eve, don't matter.


Those are really just the straw(s) that broke the camels back.

The problem is so much of eve has been abandoned so they could assign all the devs to incarna, dust, evegate, world of darkness etc. And we get this utter crap in incarna and comments about how they want to ruin the player run economy for mts.

When are they going to reassign those 70 devs that are working on incarna and get them reassigned to things like a broken sov system, broken low sec, broken fw, crap ui etc ?

Lol they forgot to have someone even attend the fw roundtable at fanfest!

Many quit when they said it would be 18 months before they worked on any of this. Now it seems clear it will be much longer before ccp takes an interset in the inspace part of eve.

Yes I’m abandoning eve but CCP abandoned it first.



Amar Azaph
Posted - 2011.06.28 20:59:00 - [429]
 

Feedback from Iceland will be- "We had a long and heated discussion with the CSM. After torturous negotiations we have decided to have a phased roll out of items."
Smart move- The CSM provides CCP with a mandate by virtue of their having a meeting. That way, CCP can announce to all and sundry- "See, we have the players on board, CSM agrees with us, the other are just a small minority."


Viking Sven
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:03:00 - [430]
 

Edited by: Viking Sven on 28/06/2011 21:03:34
Originally by: Amar Azaph
Feedback from Iceland will be- "We had a long and heated discussion with the CSM. After torturous negotiations we have decided to have a phased roll out of items."
Smart move- The CSM provides CCP with a mandate by virtue of their having a meeting. That way, CCP can announce to all and sundry- "See, we have the players on board, CSM agrees with us, the other are just a small minority."




I think as thickheaded as CCP is, they'll say vanity-only MT items will exist but no MT items that will give an advantage in any way. It's their only shot as saving Eve, really.

That said, even with that result I'm keeping my accounts unsubbed. At this point, it's beyond just that simple in game issue. Their entire company has basically insulted the players, be it Hilmar or Zulu, or Pann and the ridiculously delayed/non-existent responses. I'm sure as **** not going to pay their salaries so I can continue to play a game that's stagnated and getting by with a 'bare minimum' mentality from its owners.

Elayae
Gallente
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:05:00 - [431]
 

I think the community has a better PR manager then CCP. Very Happy

Viking Sven
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:06:00 - [432]
 

Originally by: Elayae
I think the community has a better PR manager then CCP. Very Happy


That's saying very little.

OHU812
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:08:00 - [433]
 

Originally by: the plague
Edited by: the plague on 28/06/2011 15:09:38
Originally by: White Tree
If this is just a simple PR move then yeah, we're going to be equally upset but I maintain hope that it isn't. That's my job broseph, to keep hope alive.


I'm sorry, White Tree, but I see no logical reason to give either the CSM or CCP the benefit of the doubt at this time. CCP has clearly demonstrated over the past two years it either doesn't understand what players want or doesn't care. Either situation is rather depressing and there is every possibility that personnel changes will have to occur in order to bring about the kind of shift in focus and design philosophy the players are obviously seeking here. And without significant external pressure, there is zero chance CCP will elect to make such changes on their own simply because "they've heard us." It's naive to believe that.

Second, as your initial post makes clear, you view these problems from a far different perspective than the vast majority of EVE players. For us, CCP is a company we purchase entertainment services from and with which we have a common investment of time, energy, and money. But for you they are your friends and drinking buddies. It is not my intention to sound harsh, but this is one of the primary problems with the entire CSM system as it currently exists. By flying CSM members to Iceland and turning the process into a drunkfest, CCP turns the CSM into a travesty and it's obvious the members become beholden to CCP very quickly. You can deny that all you want, but your denials will fall on deaf ears because we all see it a thousand times a day in the world of politics and the CSM is hardly immune to the same petty conflicts of interest.

Frankly, the entire process appears to be little more than a PR stunt designed to keep EVE Online in the pages of the gaming press. And I say that as someone who championed the idea of the CSM and has tirelessly defended the concepts behind this type of developer/player relationship. But somewhere along the line the relationship went off the rails. It appears to many that CCP is managed like a frat house full of college boys more interested in partying with friends than doing the day to day work that will keep EVE on the cutting edge of the MMO scene. There's absolutely nothing unique or cool about flying to Iceland and getting drunk. There is, however, something unique and cool about EVE Online, and protecting the ideas that made it great is what we're interested in.

Finally, we don't need you to tell us to chill out. The CSM didn't see these problems coming, nor has the CSM/CCP interaction been successful in changing CCP's direction and thinking. We don't need you to tell CCP why we're upset. Trust me, they've heard us! What we need the CSM to do (or at least attempt to do) is help bring about the kind of paradigm shift in thinking that will return EVE to its roots. Short of that, anything that comes out of this meeting will be little more than damage control and spin mixed with some minor concessions. If that's all the CSM is capable of then you're wasting our time. In short, the CSM did little to head off these problems and it did nothing to help generate the energy behind this virtual "revolution." Bottom line: You didn't help start it so don't presume to tell us when to end it.

Stop partying with CCP and acting like they're your buddies. We elected you to represent our EVE Online interests, not represent us at the pub. Our collective outrage and actions have given the CSM a golden opportunity to finally speak with authority to CCP. Don't waste it! Or simply admit there's little you can do and stay out of the way.


Awesome

Or'ild Dral Utrigas
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:11:00 - [434]
 

I see Eve turning into one of the other games that involves a cash economy(Entropia Universe). People have and will spend ridiculous amounts of money for virtual items and CCP wants to cash in on this. At some point ISK will be converted to a new single currency that is more in line with the direction that they are heading. 100 million+ ISK for a jacket is silly, but convert that to 1000(insert name of new currency) and you will have everyone lining up for it. Don't have 1000(new currency), deposit $10 or $100 into your account at a 10 to 1 ratio and suddenly you can start to afford these vanity items. Microtransactions at its finest. A safe market to sell your items to someone else and the ability to withdraw funds for cash at some point and you will have a non stop cash machine for them.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:12:00 - [435]
 

Originally by: Elayae
I think the community has a better PR manager then CCP. Very Happy


I think the 'community' has been drinking sea water.

Mr Epeen Cool

BlackCobalt
Coretech Industries
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:18:00 - [436]
 

i like what CCP is doing with the walk around station or Captains Quarters atm even tho I don't use it. And as for the micro stuff maybe CCP can rethink there venue for it. Instead of having clothing and such in player market side bar wait till the complete station walk around in done and put up small npc vendor booths on stations.

This would keep micro stuff active and on the sidelines and also out of player driven market.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:18:00 - [437]
 

Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: Elayae
I think the community has a better PR manager then CCP. Very Happy


I think the 'community' has been drinking sea water.

Mr Epeen Cool


Do you think you're part of the community?

Hesperius
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:21:00 - [438]
 

Originally by: White Tree
We walked through the art department knowing that these people spend many a night actually sleeping at the office and working into the wee hours because this was and still is their passion.

Shocked

They have cots at CCP?

centurion zulu
Phantom Squad
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:25:00 - [439]
 


You will accomplish nothing. CSM's never have.

This is all for show, to get the peeps to quiet down and hopefully this will blow over.

This is a business. There trying a little politics with this meeting is all there doing.


Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:26:00 - [440]
 

Originally by: Hesperius
Originally by: White Tree
We walked through the art department knowing that these people spend many a night actually sleeping at the office and working into the wee hours because this was and still is their passion.

Shocked

They have cots at CCP?


OMFG YES!!

AND THEY PAID FOR THEM WITH OUR SUB MONEY!!!

RISE UP PEOPLE!!

MAKE NEW THREADS!!

TIME TO STICK IT TO THE MAN!!

EVERYONE QUIT ... again.

Mr Epeen Cool


Imryn Xaran
Caldari
Coherent Light Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:31:00 - [441]
 

Originally by: BlackCobalt
i like what CCP is doing with the walk around station or Captains Quarters atm even tho I don't use it. And as for the micro stuff maybe CCP can rethink there venue for it. Instead of having clothing and such in player market side bar wait till the complete station walk around in done and put up small npc vendor booths on stations.

This would keep micro stuff active and on the sidelines and also out of player driven market.


There is no need for CQ or full body avatars to implement private stores or even casinos, and it could have been done years ago if they wanted. This is all just a beta test for WoD.

Viking Sven
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:34:00 - [442]
 

Edited by: Viking Sven on 28/06/2011 21:34:36
I don't really buy the **** about the art department. I think they're part of the problem tbh. What visual updates have we seen in Eve recently?

-WiS/Character creator.
-Updated 2 ship models (maller/scorpion)
-Turrets
-Nebulae

Hell, they even had future ship designs done by the community.

What have they likely been up late doing? ****ing Dust/WoD.
What's been paying their salaries? Eve.

Susitna
Caldari
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:34:00 - [443]
 

I do not want to view CCP as the enemy. I want to view them as reliable partner in this game of EVE that I enjoy. However, CCPs recent actions concerning micro transaction and implementation of Incarna threaten the partnership. Many of us have invested significant time and money in this game based upon the current funding model -the subscription. We have continued to play this game on the assumption that MT for functional items would never come into a mature subscription based game like eve.

CCP wants to add MTs. Incarna appears as nothing but a simple interface tool to add MT to the game. MT for functional items in a subscription based game is a game breaker for me. I will not pay a subscription and then be forced to pay to win. Our subscription should cover the price of admission to access ALL functional items in the game such as implants, modes, ships, boosters, or faction.

I have no issue with MT for Vanity items. In fact, I might actually buy a paint job for a ship or two if the price is reasonable. I suspect paint jobs could be a significant revenue source because thousands of ships explode every day. Of course the price would have to be cheap. They would make their cash based on volume.

I hope CSM and CCP can come to an agreement that restores my trust that CCP is a reliable gaming partner. If not and CCP insists on changing the payment model on a mature game like I EVE. I will never buy another product from them.

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:45:00 - [444]
 

Edited by: Vandrion on 28/06/2011 21:45:40
I don't think the entire CSM has heard to be honest......

Mittens is taking the CCP line on the Fearless newsletter in his article HERE.

"Greed Is Good, But Company Memo Leaks Are Better: A few weeks ago, certain individuals acquired a copy of the May issue of CCP’s company newsletter, “Fearless” which featured a picture of Gordon Gekko and titled “Greed is Good?” The focus of the magazine was entirely devoted to the topic of microtransactions, with various CCPers opining on their utility or where the company could go with them in DUST 514, EVE or World of Darkness. "

Only 2 sections of that entire newsletter were commentary and opinion from Devs. Download and read page 9 of the newsletter HERE. That newsletter was in no way, shape or form designed to create "discussion" on the subject of MT. Read the article titled:

"EVE:
Delivering the goods:
virtual sales in Incarna"

So no White Tree.... The CSM hasn't heard the players when the Chairman starts to spew the company line in articles.......

Manos Heimenbarger
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:48:00 - [445]
 

I place a small amount of hope in this meeting, only because there is no hope anywhere else. It's only natural that we are so distrusting, and maybe even a little paranoid, at this point, considering what CCP has done in the past. Even if CCP does make good here, I imagine it will take a long time for the wounds to heal.

I just ask that the CSM do their best to make an honest effort.

Dr Hsu
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:54:00 - [446]
 

Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: Hesperius
Originally by: White Tree
We walked through the art department knowing that these people spend many a night actually sleeping at the office and working into the wee hours because this was and still is their passion.

Shocked

They have cots at CCP?


OMFG YES!!

AND THEY PAID FOR THEM WITH OUR SUB MONEY!!!

RISE UP PEOPLE!!

MAKE NEW THREADS!!

TIME TO STICK IT TO THE MAN!!

EVERYONE QUIT ... again.

Mr Epeen Cool




bro, you should take a chill pill and chillax, you are getting mad trolled by all this.

pipvac
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.06.28 21:55:00 - [447]
 

Originally by: the plague
Edited by: the plague on 28/06/2011 15:09:38
Originally by: White Tree
If this is just a simple PR move then yeah, we're going to be equally upset but I maintain hope that it isn't. That's my job broseph, to keep hope alive.


I'm sorry, White Tree, but I see no logical reason to give either the CSM or CCP the benefit of the doubt at this time. CCP has clearly demonstrated over the past two years it either doesn't understand what players want or doesn't care. Either situation is rather depressing and there is every possibility that personnel changes will have to occur in order to bring about the kind of shift in focus and design philosophy the players are obviously seeking here. And without significant external pressure, there is zero chance CCP will elect to make such changes on their own simply because "they've heard us." It's naive to believe that.

Second, as your initial post makes clear, you view these problems from a far different perspective than the vast majority of EVE players. For us, CCP is a company we purchase entertainment services from and with which we have a common investment of time, energy, and money. But for you they are your friends and drinking buddies. It is not my intention to sound harsh, but this is one of the primary problems with the entire CSM system as it currently exists. By flying CSM members to Iceland and turning the process into a drunkfest, CCP turns the CSM into a travesty and it's obvious the members become beholden to CCP very quickly. You can deny that all you want, but your denials will fall on deaf ears because we all see it a thousand times a day in the world of politics and the CSM is hardly immune to the same petty conflicts of interest.

Frankly, the entire process appears to be little more than a PR stunt designed to keep EVE Online in the pages of the gaming press. And I say that as someone who championed the idea of the CSM and has tirelessly defended the concepts behind this type of developer/player relationship. But somewhere along the line the relationship went off the rails. It appears to many that CCP is managed like a frat house full of college boys more interested in partying with friends than doing the day to day work that will keep EVE on the cutting edge of the MMO scene. There's absolutely nothing unique or cool about flying to Iceland and getting drunk. There is, however, something unique and cool about EVE Online, and protecting the ideas that made it great is what we're interested in.

Finally, we don't need you to tell us to chill out. The CSM didn't see these problems coming, nor has the CSM/CCP interaction been successful in changing CCP's direction and thinking. We don't need you to tell CCP why we're upset. Trust me, they've heard us! What we need the CSM to do (or at least attempt to do) is help bring about the kind of paradigm shift in thinking that will return EVE to its roots. Short of that, anything that comes out of this meeting will be little more than damage control and spin mixed with some minor concessions. If that's all the CSM is capable of then you're wasting our time. In short, the CSM did little to head off these problems and it did nothing to help generate the energy behind this virtual "revolution." Bottom line: You didn't help start it so don't presume to tell us when to end it.

Stop partying with CCP and acting like they're your buddies. We elected you to represent our EVE Online interests, not represent us at the pub. Our collective outrage and actions have given the CSM a golden opportunity to finally speak with authority to CCP. Don't waste it! Or simply admit there's little you can do and stay out of the way.


+1 I really couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you.

Psychlo
Posted - 2011.06.28 22:01:00 - [448]
 

Just a thought. . .

Our whole group has removed all our market orders, stopped production, stopped buying supplies and basically shutdown. For those of us waiting to see the results of this CSM thing, might I suggest doing the same. Maybe if the rest of the players suddenly realize who builds cap ships, tech II and Tech III and all the other really nice parts they may have a vested interest in all of this suddenly. The old school long time eve players also happen to be the buyers, the sellers and the producers. A little in game market chaos would be another pressure point.

Stormchyld
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.28 22:06:00 - [449]
 

.. a better translation of the recent newspaper article that the COO did.

http://www.failheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2434&start=940


Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.28 22:20:00 - [450]
 

Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: Hesperius
Originally by: White Tree
We walked through the art department knowing that these people spend many a night actually sleeping at the office and working into the wee hours because this was and still is their passion.

Shocked

They have cots at CCP?


OMFG YES!!

AND THEY PAID FOR THEM WITH OUR SUB MONEY!!!

RISE UP PEOPLE!!

MAKE NEW THREADS!!

TIME TO STICK IT TO THE MAN!!

EVERYONE QUIT ... again.

Mr Epeen Cool


That lake of Koolaid you’ve prepared? Go jump in it. Other people have standards.


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