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Xiozor
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:08:00 - [1]
 

I was thinking today about Frigates, and how much better it would be if Assault Frigates and their Tech 1 counterparts were immune to gate gun fire.

At the moment for a low-sec roam you are almost strictly restricted to T2 cruisers, Battleships and Battlecruisers because:
1. You want to be able to engage on gates and stations. This requires durability.
2. You want to be able to travel with a GCC instead of hiding in a safe for 15 minutes.

Giving this ability to Tech 1 Frigates and Assault Frigates would:
1. Make low-sec more varied.
2. Make frigates more useful.
3. Finally give Assault Frigates a role.
4. Encourage newbies into PvP (hopefully in swarms, where they can learn the joys of making us vets rip out our hair BECAUSE OF MAULUS)

I also don't think it would be particularly overpowered, at the end of the day, a Frigate is a Frigate and will always suffer from its shortcomings.

Also just to clarify this should clearly not extend to Interceptors, Covert Ops, Faction Frigates etc etc

Aias Telemonias
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:27:00 - [2]
 

I'm onboard with this and have actually thought about this before, too. I would not agree with making frigates completely immune to sentry gun fire (because then lowsec roams would just end up purely with frigates, I mean really), BUT I think scaling damage would be good; for instance, the way that missiles have explosion radii, the same principle could apply to smaller ships. The smaller the ship, the less damage it takes from the sentry guns. That way, even the noobies can learn to deal with sentry gun fire like they would in a battleship or battlecruiser.

Pharos Pharos
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:03:00 - [3]
 

Firmly opposed to this idea - frigate pvp is alive and well, in belts and static 1/10 to 2/10 plexs in lowsec. BC's are far from the only lowsec fleet comp that works, and encouraging the idea that the ONLY WAY TO PVP IN LOWSEC is to:

Originally by: Xiozor

1. to be able to engage on gates and stations. This requires durability.
2. to be able to travel with a GCC instead of hiding in a safe for 15 minutes.



This is not something I like. I like that lowsec is different from 0.0, that you can easily engage bc fleets outnumbered with the right composition, that sometimes you make choices between going GCC and keeping moving, that there are different styles of how to run those roams, and that everyone thinks BC's are the only way to go. That and, anyone who pews in lowsec regularly can be tackled by frigates anyway, so the only real purpose of this would be to discourage soloing in lowsec even more by making it possible for semi-competent people to catch you on the gate - instead of the current risk of only competent people catching you.


Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.06.28 01:26:00 - [4]
 

You will just see them used as alt tacklers.

bushwacka
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Aias Telemonias
I'm onboard with this and have actually thought about this before, too. I would not agree with making frigates completely immune to sentry gun fire (because then lowsec roams would just end up purely with frigates, I mean really), BUT I think scaling damage would be good; for instance, the way that missiles have explosion radii, the same principle could apply to smaller ships. The smaller the ship, the less damage it takes from the sentry guns. That way, even the noobies can learn to deal with sentry gun fire like they would in a battleship or battlecruiser.

no need to scale it, just replace the current overpowered wtf-tracking and max range guns with let's say large size gun tracking and a bit extended range, so every ship gets the damage it "deserves", which would make frig fights at gates finally viable as long as you stay on the move.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:09:00 - [6]
 

There aren't any gate guns in Null Sec and you don't take gate gun fire if you're in FW tackling war targets. The fact is that low sec is still faction run space, and they don't condone acts of aggression. High-sec to Low-sec gate camping is already lame enough--why make it more lame? And, why limit it to T1 Frigs and not T2/Faction frigs? Scan res isn't that different.

Deen Wispa
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.06.28 05:00:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Von Kroll
High-sec to Low-sec gate camping is already lame enough--why make it more lame?


Pretty much. You'd just have more lame gate campers. If it weren't for that, I might be on board because aside from FW space, lowsec is empty.

Vorekk
LowBall Heavy Industries
Cloning Gone Wrong
Posted - 2011.06.28 06:29:00 - [8]
 

I agree that Frigates being insta-popped by sentry guns really does suck.

However, instead of making them arbitrarily immune to sentry fire (I prefer changes that make sense in an RP format), why not replace sentry guns with sentry missiles? Sentry Torpedoes, to be exact.

This would give frigates far more survivability, and lets the damage scale to the ship size and speed, as Aias Telemonias and bushwacka suggested.

Mekhana
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:17:00 - [9]
 

I fly a lot of fleet tacklers and I have to disagree. It would make tackling too easy. The target needs a chance to get away from a camp even if only a slight one.

The problem here is that nano ships can warp very quickly, you'd not need a frigate to tackle an armor ship at a gate. A non seboed battlecruiser would be enough with a cycle of overheated long point.

Iggy Stooge
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:48:00 - [10]
 

1. How would more gatecamps make low-Sec more varied?
2 Frigates are very useful.
3. If you set your fleet up with this tactic in mind, AF's can tackle under gateguns already.
4. Making gate guns less effective would discourage noobs, not encourage them. People don't go into low-sec because they can't tank the gate guns, but because there is no Concord.

Xiozor
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2011.06.28 13:41:00 - [11]
 

- Making it scale to ship size seems like a better compromise.

- It would make low-sec in general more vaired, not gate camps. The reason you do not roam in Frigates is because most fights take place on gates or stations, and you need to pass by gate guns to travel. Any fight which isn't on a gate is either A) At a POS, B) A clueless idiot PvE'ing or C) Bait.

- It wouldn't overpower gatecamping at all. We already have Tech 3 ships which can get 4500 scan res with no Remote Sensor Boosters, and HIC's which can get insta-lock scan resolution without too much trouble.
So bringing a Frigate to do the tackling wouldn't make any difference, an insta-lock is still an insta-lock and cloaky stuff can still get through just as easily.

- It shouldn't be extended to Interceptors, Faction Frigs, Covops etc because they are already powerful enough, and it's supposed to be more focused on giving tech 1 frigs more use in low-sec, and to give Assault Frigates a role. If Dramiels and Interceptor could share this advantage for example, you would completely remove the point of bringing a T1 frig or an AF in the first place.

- AF's on gateguns in the current setting? If you take two/three Guardians sure. But even then any other ship would still be more useful because it becomes a heavy liability.

- Making gate guns less effective -against starter ships- would remove one of the biggest barriers that currently prevent newbies from contributing towards a pirates life. I don't see how having tech 1 frigates taking reduced gategun fire would discourage newbies from PvP'ing at all.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.28 14:56:00 - [12]
 

I would say introduce a tracking and signature element to the gate guns.

However there is really no way to justify (in-game) why assault frigates and t1 frigates should have this boon while the other frigate types do not.

There is an easier way to allow them to aggress on station and on gate. Let the target GCC first and they you'll have the benefit of guns on your side.

In addition if you have a particular group of players you want to kill you can use wardecs.

Moreover, new players in frigates do join the fleets I run with and we use them as scouts and off gate off station tackle.

Other than that, frigates see widespread use in highsec (RvB), lowsec (FW) and nullsec. True lowsec is and always has been about committing to your fights and it should stay that way.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.06.28 15:43:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Xiozor
- Making it scale to ship size seems like a better compromise.

- It would make low-sec in general more vaired, not gate camps. The reason you do not roam in Frigates is because most fights take place on gates or stations, and you need to pass by gate guns to travel. Any fight which isn't on a gate is either A) At a POS, B) A clueless idiot PvE'ing or C) Bait.

- It wouldn't overpower gatecamping at all. We already have Tech 3 ships which can get 4500 scan res with no Remote Sensor Boosters, and HIC's which can get insta-lock scan resolution without too much trouble.
So bringing a Frigate to do the tackling wouldn't make any difference, an insta-lock is still an insta-lock and cloaky stuff can still get through just as easily.

- It shouldn't be extended to Interceptors, Faction Frigs, Covops etc because they are already powerful enough, and it's supposed to be more focused on giving tech 1 frigs more use in low-sec, and to give Assault Frigates a role. If Dramiels and Interceptor could share this advantage for example, you would completely remove the point of bringing a T1 frig or an AF in the first place.

- AF's on gateguns in the current setting? If you take two/three Guardians sure. But even then any other ship would still be more useful because it becomes a heavy liability.

- Making gate guns less effective -against starter ships- would remove one of the biggest barriers that currently prevent newbies from contributing towards a pirates life. I don't see how having tech 1 frigates taking reduced gategun fire would discourage newbies from PvP'ing at all.


The two reasons most combat in low-sec takes place on gates and stations is (1)because pirates and griefers have completely "overfished" low-sec; no indy type in his right mind wants to mine or PvE because he knows he'll be ganked, and (2) because 95% of all PvP in this game, high, low, or null-sec takes place on gates and stations. Its much more difficult to lock down a player or fleet anywhere else. Now, if you and yours showed some discipline, and only shot at outlaws on your gate camps, you could use whatever ship type you want. But, since you basically want to gank whatever comes through, you have to ship up, or get popped. New players that want to pirate, can find fights in their T1 frigs--they just have to learn how to be patient and find targets, to take the GCC, and to wait out their timer. Lets be honest, they're not learning piracy or PvP on a gate camp. They're learning ganking.

T3 and HICs cost a lot of isk--not throw away ships, and they're balanced both by expense and the skill training time required to competently fly them.

Faction frigs basically share the same scan res category as assault frigs already. 2 Sebo's (or remote Sebos) will get an AF or T1 frig in the same ball park as an Inty or Faction Frig. Even worse, AF's get the bonus of having T2 resists. And, AF's have a role, just not as part of a gank squad camping a low-sec gate.


Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:09:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Llambda on 28/06/2011 16:16:02
This is like saying, "Wouldn't it be better if some battleship guns were extremely good at hitting small, fast, close-orbiting ships?"

You're making a suggestion that runs completely counter to the obvious intention of the existing design.

It's not like the fact that gate guns melt frigates is some unintentional oversight - they're supposed to make it infeasible for small ships to aggress on gates.

Aias Telemonias
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:11:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: bushwacka
Originally by: Aias Telemonias
I'm onboard with this and have actually thought about this before, too. I would not agree with making frigates completely immune to sentry gun fire (because then lowsec roams would just end up purely with frigates, I mean really), BUT I think scaling damage would be good; for instance, the way that missiles have explosion radii, the same principle could apply to smaller ships. The smaller the ship, the less damage it takes from the sentry guns. That way, even the noobies can learn to deal with sentry gun fire like they would in a battleship or battlecruiser.

no need to scale it, just replace the current overpowered wtf-tracking and max range guns with let's say large size gun tracking and a bit extended range, so every ship gets the damage it "deserves", which would make frig fights at gates finally viable as long as you stay on the move.


That's pretty much what I meant, you just said it in a much more concise way than I did. Thanks :P
The OP-ness of Sentry Guns is kinda bull**** anyways... I mean, POS guns have to deal with tracking and range, so why aren't Sentry Guns restricted in the same ways? Complete nonsense.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.28 17:21:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Aias Telemonias


That's pretty much what I meant, you just said it in a much more concise way than I did. Thanks :P
The OP-ness of Sentry Guns is kinda bull**** anyways... I mean, POS guns have to deal with tracking and range, so why aren't Sentry Guns restricted in the same ways? Complete nonsense.


Because then they wouldn't be able to perform their intended function, obviously.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.06.28 22:10:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Aias Telemonias
Originally by: bushwacka
Originally by: Aias Telemonias
I'm onboard with this and have actually thought about this before, too. I would not agree with making frigates completely immune to sentry gun fire (because then lowsec roams would just end up purely with frigates, I mean really), BUT I think scaling damage would be good; for instance, the way that missiles have explosion radii, the same principle could apply to smaller ships. The smaller the ship, the less damage it takes from the sentry guns. That way, even the noobies can learn to deal with sentry gun fire like they would in a battleship or battlecruiser.

no need to scale it, just replace the current overpowered wtf-tracking and max range guns with let's say large size gun tracking and a bit extended range, so every ship gets the damage it "deserves", which would make frig fights at gates finally viable as long as you stay on the move.


That's pretty much what I meant, you just said it in a much more concise way than I did. Thanks :P
The OP-ness of Sentry Guns is kinda bull**** anyways... I mean, POS guns have to deal with tracking and range, so why aren't Sentry Guns restricted in the same ways? Complete nonsense.


Sentry guns belong to faction navies. Have you tried fighting the faction navy? Very Happy

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:00:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 29/06/2011 00:01:28
-dumb idea deleted by me-

Pharos Pharos
Posted - 2011.06.29 00:17:00 - [19]
 

PvP on gates and stations blows. It should not be encouraged. I find plenty of people ratting/running CA's in lowsec. They are not particularly fun. The other 70% are indeed bait or simply other pvpers looking for the 30% who are dumb. This is good. The 70% is how you get good fights, and frigates work just fine for it.

tldr, if you only fight on stations and gates you both suck at finding bait to shoot/and or can't bait properly yourself. making Dramiels even more common is no the solution you're looking for.

Xiozor
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2011.06.29 13:49:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Xiozor on 29/06/2011 13:52:45
I couldn't care less about gate camping and ganking, this isn't what it's about.

Sure, you can use T1 frigs as scouts but it's still a waste because T1 frigate scouting is really, really boring and it earns you no kills at all which will push new players away from getting involved. Not to mention any FC who hasn't been lobotomised has a T2 covert ops scouting alt anyway.

When you have 2 fleets roaming around in low-sec looking for fights, funnily enough they will only tend to leave the gates and if they are flying to a fleet which is parked up at a celestial.

This means, in order to use frigates in low-sec you need to wait off gate in one system and hope the enemy warp to you, instantly giving them the advantage? I don't think so somehow.

And believe it or not, it's not only outlaws who roam in low-sec. 0.0 entities whose sec status has been largely unaffected, casual PvPers who keep their sec status above -1.99 and fresh pirates who haven't gotten their hands dirty enough to get -5 yet.

Tracking idea is great, if gate guns were moved from 100+km away to about 10km away, because at the moment I can hit speedy frigates 100km away with large calibre weapons no problem: http://malin.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1846435

You can just limit it to Assault Frigates, you can say they have some sort of countermeasure which makes them invisible to gate guns, but not POS guns because they are (supposedly) manned rather than automated.

Originally by: Pharos Pharos
stuff


Notice the part where I specifically mention no Dramiels?

Also, when I PvP I would rather chase down enemy fleets that our intel channel pick up, rather than baiting in logoffski traps all day, and if an enemy fleet is baiting that means we already know where it is (see again, intel channels) so we will be engaging them on a gate.

And unless it's worth more than 500m, I am not going to bother probing it out of a CA, not to mention, that isn't PvP it's just hitting a space pinyata for the alliance cap replacement fund.

Meeogi
Amarr
Lone Star Privateers
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:22:00 - [21]
 

I have been saying something very similar for year's. Gate guns should do massive damage to larger ships. Frigates should be able to out maneuver the gate guns in low.... This would bring in more people, I am certain of it.

If your not rich..and want to go solo in an af.... well you have to make 50 jumps...not because you don't see pilots ... but because they aren't in lowsec belts.

besides.. pirates have always used SMALL fast vessels to plunder.

tikktokk tokkzikk
Switchblade Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.29 16:51:00 - [22]
 

Nerf teh gateguns tracking?

Pharos Pharos
Posted - 2011.06.29 19:27:00 - [23]
 

Still no. Solo t1 frig pvp is perfectly possible, and they're also pretty good at tackling in belt engagements. If you're too lazy to use frigates in any of the roles they're good at and simply want them to be able to ***** on mails for your blob on gates, then stick to 0.0 and your intel channels, where they're pretty shweet tacklers.


 

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