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Takseen
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:44:00 - [361]
 

Originally by: edith prickley
Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Katra Novac
Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else.


Sure, but that doesn't mean we want EVE to stop if we can help it.


Are you paying for your subscription? Then you are doing all that is required of you.

If CCP can't manage your subscription money, throwing more money at them won't solve that problem.


If you really wanted to show support for CCP, you could just buy a bunch of timecodes and convert them to PLEX, switch to a longer term subscription plan, or buy another account. A donation button isn't necessary anyway.

Vincentus
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:47:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Katra Novac
Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else.


Sure, but that doesn't mean we want EVE to stop if we can help it.


Well, EVE itself is a profitable venture, so if CCP fails to get some investors crazy enough to start the cash pump or if this doesn't happen, fails to put WoD in Captain's Closet (including all the employees that are working on that, which is not an easy decision to make) to get their cashflow to make sense again and all this fail does lead to bankruptcy, it is very likely that another game company will buy EVE and continue the franchise. How this would work out for the game itself and the community is a big unknown of course. In theory, you could also get a group of eve fans together to get the money together,and have them buy EVE if CCP goes out the window. Eve being taken over by players would be pretty awesome in my own humble opinion Laughing

(but 100M plus is big moniez...)

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:47:00 - [363]
 

I have no doubt they can manage their subscription income. EVE itself is profitable and Dust will no doubt* be profitable when it comes out. No problem at all.

*you can read that in whichever way you want

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.06.28 10:58:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
They will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company.


They could always start selling company shares to players for AURUM.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:23:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: Saving Face
I have no doubt they can manage their subscription income. EVE itself is profitable and Dust will no doubt* be profitable when it comes out. No problem at all.

*you can read that in whichever way you want



You can dress it up all you want, fact is they are operating on too thin a cash liquidity, depending on bonds issued to creditors for 11 million dollars for cash liquidity is NOT a good IDEA either way you put the lipstick on the pig.

Dust is a year away, WoD is 2 or 3 years out.

Expansions suffer and thus the customers suffer.

They NEED Microtransations to AGRESSIVELY BOOST REVENUE and FAST. There is no hiding that fact.

What they should have done with that bond issuance is to use that money to BUY A PROFITABLE COMPANY and USE THE PROFITS OFF THAT to payback the bond on maturity and then use the rest to boost cash liquidy and for their RnD investments.

Only an idiot that lives on the edge wrecklessly depends on loans.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:37:00 - [366]
 



Even with VANITY ONLY items, no way can CCP make up the revenue at their current rate, priced too high they flop, priced to low, they wont sell enough volume.

Sub increases wont cover it either. BUY A PROFITABLE SMALL COMPANY CCP USE THEIR PROFITS TO BAIL YOU OUT. You know its the STABLE thing to do.


Boaz Hedion Merkava
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:47:00 - [367]
 

Originally by: Miilla


Even with VANITY ONLY items, no way can CCP make up the revenue at their current rate, priced too high they flop, priced to low, they wont sell enough volume.

Sub increases wont cover it either. BUY A PROFITABLE SMALL COMPANY CCP USE THEIR PROFITS TO BAIL YOU OUT. You know its the STABLE thing to do.




yeah, uhm hi.
could you please stop using yellow for everything? it's really lame and stuff. Thanks.

Arm Smith
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:53:00 - [368]
 

Seems like even if ccp survives the october date, it will still only be a mater of time till thins go totaly pete tong.

This is prob a slightly WOW there cowboy sugestion.

But should dust be cancelled?

as a game, is it gonna be a big earner? personaly, i don't see it. FPS is a mega competative market with COD and MW dominating it. What does dust bring to the market that isn't there aleady? What steps it away from anything else?

a link to another game while great for marketing wont make any difference if the game doesn't grab you by the ankles, throw you round the room then headshot you for good measure.

Is it time that Dust gets the put on the 'on hold for a rainy day' shelf, and the cost savings made. I'm sure alot of the staff could transfer over to eve delopment which will help improve eve.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:53:00 - [369]
 

Originally by: Boaz Hedion Merkava
Originally by: Miilla


Even with VANITY ONLY items, no way can CCP make up the revenue at their current rate, priced too high they flop, priced to low, they wont sell enough volume.

Sub increases wont cover it either. BUY A PROFITABLE SMALL COMPANY CCP USE THEIR PROFITS TO BAIL YOU OUT. You know its the STABLE thing to do.




yeah, uhm hi.
could you please stop using yellow for everything? it's really lame and stuff. Thanks.



Sure, how much AUR you willing to PAY?

Uncle KiddyFiddler
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:54:00 - [370]
 

Surely the icelandic banks will bail them out.No wait....

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:01:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: Arm Smith
Seems like even if ccp survives the october date, it will still only be a mater of time till thins go totaly pete tong.



Okay, first, it will only be a matter of time if you assume that Dust isn't profitable. We don't know that yet. CCP will be running their business based on the assumption that Dust will be profitable, otherwise it would make no sense to develop it.

Assuming nothing else changes, to survive until Dust launches, they need to raise around $20 million more this year than last year. The $12 million loan needs to be refinanced, cash burn of $8.5 in 2011 needs to be absorbed and there needs to be a buffer of unknown size for the part of next year before Dust turns profitable and potential cost to releasing a new game on the PS3 via retail. This is not that bad.

Quote:

This is prob a slightly WOW there cowboy sugestion.

But should dust be cancelled?



Financially, this would have a big impact on the balance sheet because the code they wrote for Dust is currently an asset. If it turns out it has no value after all, they'd have to write it down resulting in a huge paper deficit (but not actually in losing hard cash). Kind of like "oops, that $30 million worth of code we thought we had? Turns out it's worth less than a shuttle."

The other side of it is that they would have to downsize considerably and it's hard to predict how that will work out even for EVE, knowing how little we've been getting in the way of fixes and new content recently. If Dust fails they will have to do this anyway, but if you are concerned about EVE, what you would hope for is that it doesn't so that CCP doesn't fall apart.


Arm Smith
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:10:00 - [372]
 

Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Arm Smith
Seems like even if ccp survives the october date, it will still only be a mater of time till thins go totaly pete tong.



Okay, first, it will only be a matter of time if you assume that Dust isn't profitable. We don't know that yet. CCP will be running their business based on the assumption that Dust will be profitable, otherwise it would make no sense to develop it.

Assuming nothing else changes, to survive until Dust launches, they need to raise around $20 million more this year than last year. The $12 million loan needs to be refinanced, cash burn of $8.5 in 2011 needs to be absorbed and there needs to be a buffer of unknown size for the part of next year before Dust turns profitable and potential cost to releasing a new game on the PS3 via retail. This is not that bad.

Quote:

This is prob a slightly WOW there cowboy sugestion.

But should dust be cancelled?



Financially, this would have a big impact on the balance sheet because the code they wrote for Dust is currently an asset. If it turns out it has no value after all, they'd have to write it down resulting in a huge paper deficit (but not actually in losing hard cash). Kind of like "oops, that $30 million worth of code we thought we had? Turns out it's worth less than a shuttle."

The other side of it is that they would have to downsize considerably and it's hard to predict how that will work out even for EVE, knowing how little we've been getting in the way of fixes and new content recently. If Dust fails they will have to do this anyway, but if you are concerned about EVE, what you would hope for is that it doesn't so that CCP doesn't fall apart.





Putting the project on hold, won't alter the asset value of the code, just freeze it and stop the cost of ongoing development. Thats the saving.

As far as downsizing, afraid in the current economy it might have to go that way, if the money made by eve are being chanelled else where then it will return that development costs back into eve to bring that back, the affects of that remain to be seen.

Alot of companies have had to pull development funding on projects (programs or real world projects) in order to stabalise the books. Taking out a loan in a hope that something will take off is not a good business model with such a risky venture.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:10:00 - [373]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 12:12:49

Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Arm Smith
Seems like even if ccp survives the october date, it will still only be a mater of time till thins go totaly pete tong.



Okay, first, it will only be a matter of time if you assume that Dust isn't profitable. We don't know that yet. CCP will be running their business based on the assumption that Dust will be profitable, otherwise it would make no sense to develop it.

Assuming nothing else changes, to survive until Dust launches, they need to raise around $20 million more this year than last year. The $12 million loan needs to be refinanced, cash burn of $8.5 in 2011 needs to be absorbed and there needs to be a buffer of unknown size for the part of next year before Dust turns profitable and potential cost to releasing a new game on the PS3 via retail. This is not that bad.

Quote:

This is prob a slightly WOW there cowboy sugestion.

But should dust be cancelled?



Financially, this would have a big impact on the balance sheet because the code they wrote for Dust is currently an asset. If it turns out it has no value after all, they'd have to write it down resulting in a huge paper deficit (but not actually in losing hard cash). Kind of like "oops, that $30 million worth of code we thought we had? Turns out it's worth less than a shuttle."

The other side of it is that they would have to downsize considerably and it's hard to predict how that will work out even for EVE, knowing how little we've been getting in the way of fixes and new content recently. If Dust fails they will have to do this anyway, but if you are concerned about EVE, what you would hope for is that it doesn't so that CCP doesn't fall apart.




An asset that is making no money currently , infact an asset that is COSTING money.

They got a loan based on their bond issuance.

Again I think they should have used that money to buy a PROFITABLE company and use that for their projects, not living on bond issuances.

That is the stable and smart way to do it for the long term, start buying profitable companies into the CCP group and then they would have a better position totally for all this RnD instead they took the HIGH RISK path of loans and bleed with MONEY OUT = MONEY IN.

I think they also made a mistake of trying to grow too fast in headcount.

Very foolish

Saving Face
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:16:00 - [374]
 

Originally by: Miilla
Again I think they should have used that money to buy a PROFITABLE company and use that for their projects, not living on bond issuances.



I don't know, that's pretty much standard practice. You take out a loan in order to work on a product that will then generate income above what you need to repay the loan. Most businesses do this because bootstrapping from a garage only works rarely.

Quote:

I think they also made a mistake of trying to grow too fast in headcount.



They aren't growing organically, at least.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:18:00 - [375]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 12:20:53

Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Miilla
Again I think they should have used that money to buy a PROFITABLE company and use that for their projects, not living on bond issuances.



I don't know, that's pretty much standard practice. You take out a loan in order to work on a product that will then generate income above what you need to repay the loan. Most businesses do this because bootstrapping from a garage only works rarely.

Quote:

I think they also made a mistake of trying to grow too fast in headcount.



They aren't growing organically, at least.



Its not standard in the companies I know lol Then again they had very smart business people running them, not foolish living on the edge people which seems to be prevelant in the games industry.

PS: These companies where not garrage companies either, sure operating at a loss yearly during RnD but not in debt and they even sub letted their offices to make them cost NOTHING to rent.

Shanti Dupriez
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:20:00 - [376]
 

Originally by: Uncle KiddyFiddler
Surely the icelandic banks will bail them out.No wait....


Does seem to be the way to do business in Iceland doesn't it.. Rolling Eyes

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:22:00 - [377]
 

Spin White Wolf off and sell it.

They took on to much and have overextended. What I see of the NEX so far will never produce revenue sufficient to guarantee any loan.

Poorly thought out really. Low cost destructible items was the way to go. Instead of 60 monocles you might of sold 10000 1$ dresses/pants. I know many folks were willing to spend money on these items until they saw what are ridiculous prices. I'm very serious about this it was a horrible roll out and really whoever did the market research and set the prices for this fiasco should be fired, they couldn't possibly have a business degree from any reputable university.

To work in MT you have to have many low cost items that can appeal to a significant portion of your player base. In EVE keeping with the harsh reality making them destructible but low cost would be in keeping with the game and ensures they have to buy new ones.

There are two ways to solve a spending problem.

1. You increase revenue. Ever the popular measure of politicians at least til they can't print anymore money.....CCP not being a government can't print its own money so.

2. You decrease spending. What's working you keep, what's not you put on the short list of things that could be cut until you reduce spending sufficiently to enter the black.

A small increase in revenue might be tolerated by the majority of players, thus helping to cut down on cuts needed. But ultimately CCP higher management has stretched themselves to far and are almost to the point they can't fix it in time.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:29:00 - [378]
 

Originally by: El'Niaga
Spin White Wolf off and sell it.

They took on to much and have overextended. What I see of the NEX so far will never produce revenue sufficient to guarantee any loan.

Poorly thought out really. Low cost destructible items was the way to go. Instead of 60 monocles you might of sold 10000 1$ dresses/pants. I know many folks were willing to spend money on these items until they saw what are ridiculous prices. I'm very serious about this it was a horrible roll out and really whoever did the market research and set the prices for this fiasco should be fired, they couldn't possibly have a business degree from any reputable university.

To work in MT you have to have many low cost items that can appeal to a significant portion of your player base. In EVE keeping with the harsh reality making them destructible but low cost would be in keeping with the game and ensures they have to buy new ones.

There are two ways to solve a spending problem.

1. You increase revenue. Ever the popular measure of politicians at least til they can't print anymore money.....CCP not being a government can't print its own money so.

2. You decrease spending. What's working you keep, what's not you put on the short list of things that could be cut until you reduce spending sufficiently to enter the black.

A small increase in revenue might be tolerated by the majority of players, thus helping to cut down on cuts needed. But ultimately CCP higher management has stretched themselves to far and are almost to the point they can't fix it in time.



Or buy some profitable companies that make profit AND LEAVE THEM ALONE TO CONTINUE TO MAKE PROFIT dont feck them up too lol
Sublet your Office space, then you have basically nullified your rent expenditure.
DO NOT GO PUBLIC, YOU WILL DIE to SHORTS ( I certinally would short CCP heavy lol )
Change all your energy usage to low power, change your energy provider, hell same power cables, lower bills.
Many many ways to reduce costs and boost revenue.


Markus Vasquez
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:35:00 - [379]
 

The current subscription fee is what, $20 a month?

Raise it by five dollars, a twenty-five percent increase in profits.

I wouldn't mind paying a few dollars more if it means the devs won't go out of business.

LottoFreek
Freeky Lottos
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:35:00 - [380]
 

Originally by: Slymah
I would support a "donate" button over MT's


This actually...

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:36:00 - [381]
 

Meh I've decided not to get involved with those financial threads (after a few initial *trollpoast*) as 1. everyone seems to be an expert and yet has wildly differing opinions 2. going on and on about how forked CCP's finances are on a public website runs the (albeit slight) risk of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy if the story starts to run away with itself.

No matter how much "burn CCP ! burn them with fire!!!" rage I may have, making them fail (or at least tipping over the edge of the precipice they created) is not something I would be proud of, esp since there are a lot of innocent members of staff who would be forked if CCP go **** up. If they go **** up thru persisting with this arrogant stance and lose subs then fair enough, but ... well you get my drift.


Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:42:00 - [382]
 

Originally by: Markus Vasquez
The current subscription fee is what, $20 a month?

Raise it by five dollars, a twenty-five percent increase in profits.

I wouldn't mind paying a few dollars more if it means the devs won't go out of business.


Eve is overpriced on subs already. Compared to competitors (Perpetuum).

They raise it, they lose subs too.

Have fun in your smaller universe.


Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:45:00 - [383]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 12:47:57



CSM is already AGREEING TO NON VANITY ITEMS

I'm going to click YES to all NON VANITY items. Hope you enjoy the ride.


EL TITAN
Caldari
Red Sky Morning
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:46:00 - [384]
 

well, they are not getting another dime from me.. knowing now that the protest could actually cause them to hurt financially as well as publicly only gives me more insensitive to continue...............

UNTIL WE GET THE MAGIC WORDS... THERE WILL NEVER EVER 10000% CAST IRON PROMISE AND WARRANTY THERE WILL NOT BE MICRO TRANSACTIONS...

only three days left on my account.


Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:51:00 - [385]
 

Good luck for the CCP employees. Since most of you will need to find new jobs. Perhaps change what you work with completely. Best wishes.

Ford Mersombre
Posted - 2011.06.28 12:58:00 - [386]
 

I'd happily kick in an extra couple bucks a month to keep all the BS micro-transactions out of the game completely.

Perhaps they could just sell off WoD and focus on EVE? :)

Ulmega
Posted - 2011.06.28 13:02:00 - [387]
 

If I would win the lottery I would invest in CCP on the condition hey drop WOD, CCP has no place in fantasy games beside it is not part of the EVE universe which is where the focus should be.

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.06.28 14:43:00 - [388]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
And to think of how they could have had help digging themselves out of the hole they dug by just coming forward about it


This, and post # 7.

Further evidence that Hilmar at the very least needs to be sacked. The sheer, arrogant, deliberate myopia, combined with monumental incompetence--and overall grotesque mis-management in general, if GlassDoor is to be believed, deserve no less.

How does one sack a CEO, though?

One thing I'm curious about: Since when are we obligated to be milked so CCP can try and undo their self-inflicted financial troubles?

If only they'd been honest, none of this would be happening, and I, for one, would quite happily pay CAD 25-30.00 (from CAD 20.00)/mo., plus donate a PLEX or three when I could afford to, to help 'em out, and it seems I'm not the only one so willing.

These condescending, craven, lying sacks of ****e, on the other hand, can go eat a handful of live maggots and die.

Mak Gruber
Lone Star Privateers
Drop the Hammer
Posted - 2011.06.28 14:44:00 - [389]
 

Originally by: Ulmega
If I would win the lottery I would invest in CCP on the condition hey drop WOD, CCP has no place in fantasy games beside it is not part of the EVE universe which is where the focus should be.



EvE is a fantasy game, sorry to break it to you.

Boaz Hedion Merkava
Posted - 2011.06.28 14:55:00 - [390]
 

Originally by: Portmanteau
Meh I've decided not to get involved with those financial threads (after a few initial *trollpoast*) as 1. everyone seems to be an expert and yet has wildly differing opinions 2. going on and on about how forked CCP's finances are on a public website runs the (albeit slight) risk of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy if the story starts to run away with itself.

No matter how much "burn CCP ! burn them with fire!!!" rage I may have, making them fail (or at least tipping over the edge of the precipice they created) is not something I would be proud of, esp since there are a lot of innocent members of staff who would be forked if CCP go **** up. If they go **** up thru persisting with this arrogant stance and lose subs then fair enough, but ... well you get my drift.




Not only do I get what you're saying, I fully agree with it too. And to add to what you've said: this thread is ruined and well off track (well done miila!) and it is no longer in my interest to keep on reading.


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