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Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.27 17:43:00 - [1]
 

Right now the most limiting factor, other than the learning curve, for a new player to enter EVE is the fixed rate at which skillpoints can be acquired. Even someone who wants to just go out and tackle in a T1 frig still needs to put a few days of training into it before they can do out and do that.

New characters really should start with all skillpoints required to fly and fit a T1 tackler, but that's a different topic altogether.

CCP should sell skillpoints for RL cash!

As a rough estimate one can acquire 12 million skillpoints per year. So go ahead CCP and sell 1 million skillpoints for $15, or 1 million skillpoints for one PLEX.

This shouldn't jade the bitter vets any further since they didn't "work" for their skillpoints either, they merely paid for them and waited for the training to be completed. New players will have the option to skip the wait by paying up, or just pay monthly and wait.

TheTravler
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:07:00 - [2]
 

It was brought up before and the community said HELL NO!!!

That would give an advantage to someone for spening RL money. We as a community DO NOT WANT non vanity items being bought with RL money. Even Vanity items should be made by players. This game is a player driver economy. KEEP IT THAT WAY!

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:18:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Humpink Omaristos on 27/06/2011 18:27:09
Originally by: TheTravler
That would give an advantage to someone for spening RL money. We as a community DO NOT WANT non vanity items being bought with RL money.

Actually, what really is true is that there is a very vocal minority who rages against Microtransactions on the forums. EVE has 300k accounts (give or take) and only a miniscule percentage of those participates in the forums and only a fraction of those who participate express their dismay with MT.

This is just to put things in perspective. The overwhelming majority of players is either not opposed or doesn't care one way or another.

It's pretty obvious that your "we" didn't include me or people who think along the same lines so please don't pretend that there's any kind of consensus on the issue.

In addition player consensus is basically irrelevant. CCP will do what they want to do, anyone who's been playing this game long enough knows that (mom nerf, carrier nerf, aborted capital ship overhaul, to name just a few). The CSM is just a PR tool for show and has no decision making authority or influence over corporate decisions. CCP does what it wants and during the few occasions where CCP did something the CSM wanted it was a feature that CCP was going to implement anyway.

Corporations are motivated by money. The EVE population is stagnant at best. Concurrent player count has been flat for the past 2 years or so. New players don't join EVE because it's simply not worth their time to spend two years of their life waiting to get into some ship and fit it properly.

Selling skillpoints would adjust the prices characters fetch on the character bazaar downward, but other than that it wouldn't have any substantial impact on the game economy.

Originally by: TheTravler
That would give an advantage to someone for spening RL money.


Why shouldn't people who are willing to spend RL money have an advantage? Gaining an advantage due to one's financial position is the whole point! People who have RL money to spend IRL have an advantage over those who don't. Players who have ISK to spend in-game have an advantage over those who don't.

Money buys advantage everywhere, that's the natural order of things. The only people who tend to be opposed to this are the poor and communists. ;)

Evil Resident
Lunar Tech
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:35:00 - [4]
 


This is the ultimate for me, they add skillpoints for cash I'm never coming back.

Basically it will allow new players to skip years worth of training. Training I have spent years on and subs.

I'm all for giving newer players a few more SP to player round with at the start, used to be 225,000 think it's now a lowly 50-60k.

Stealth cyno alt nerf is stealth


Boomer Aires
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:02:00 - [5]
 

I do respect PROs and CONs and there is no problem for me to accept other opinions, but I have some questions to you:

Quote:
[...]EVE has 300k accounts[...]

I think your are talking about total registered users ever (accumulated), but how many are active.
If you can give me a prove, I'll change my mind

Quote:
The overwhelming majority of players is either not opposed or doesn't care one way or another.

Not opposed ok - but there are no real numbers available.

I talked to a lot of player ingame, and they were shocked as we explained them the meaning of MT and the possible consequences.
We did it on a normal way!
And they simply didn't know WHAT CCP thinks about them.

The main problem is some player didn't use their brain and do not think beyond their own nose.
Just to make it simple:
1. YOU ARE GOING TO PAY TWICE
If its a F2P game sure no problem. EVE isn't.
2. Addiding Non Vanity Items will destroy the player-driven economy
(I'm not going to explain this here again)

Finally it will kill the whole game.

The very good input given to the "forum in rage" has been done by vet player and/or player with the keen intellect to recognize the direction OUR game is drifting to.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:39:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Evil Resident
Basically it will allow new players to skip years worth of training. Training I have spent years on and subs.

True, you have spent time and money.
New players will still spend the same (or heck, even more if CCP sells SP at a premium) money, so they are not getting a deal.

Time, yes, they are skipping the time you spent, but so what? Arguably you also received entertainment value during the time you spent whereas new players have been "missing out on the fun". IRL each generation has it easier than the previous one. The argument that the next generation shouldn't have it easier solely because the previous generation had a hard time isn't valid under any consideration.

Originally by: Boomer Aires
Quote:
[...]EVE has 300k accounts[...]

I think your are talking about total registered users ever (accumulated), but how many are active.
If you can give me a prove, I'll change my mind

I saw some CCP video ahead of Fan Fest a couple of years ago where Oveur was keeping track of every account and they wouldn't let him go to FF unless it's over 300k or some such. In either case, let's say it's only 20,000 actual people playing this game, it's still just a very small percentage of people who are openly upset about this.


Originally by: Boomer Aires
The main problem is some player didn't use their brain and do not think beyond their own nose.
Just to make it simple:
1. YOU ARE GOING TO PAY TWICE
If its a F2P game sure no problem. EVE isn't.
2. Addiding Non Vanity Items will destroy the player-driven economy
(I'm not going to explain this here again)



1. No you won't. First, there is no requirement to participate in MT. You can play the game as you normally would and completely ignore MT not spending any RL cash on it. Second, let's say you pay for SP, you still aren't paying twice since you keep continuing to accumulate SP even after you bought some. Third, and perhaps most importantly, you aren't paying twice because the purpose of your payment for whatever non-vanity item is to obtain the item at an instant thus receiving the item and freeing up time. You are trading money for item and saved opportunity cost. To put it in a different light, you are paying CCP to buy the free time back you would have spent on the grind.

2. No it won't. CCP isn't stupid. Whatever non-vanity items they may provide will not be available in-game by player-made means. So if they are selling you a faction ship there will be no way for you to get the same faction ship in-game and conceivably it would be a "notrade" item that can't be transferred to a different character. Will that kill the current faction ship market? Hardly, because plenty of people will not want to spend RL cash but rather pay ISK for faction ships which are available in-game.

Will selling SP kill the player driven market? Nope, it will merely adjust character values.

Non-vanity items is really a different discussion from SP though. There's no global downside to start selling SP.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:49:00 - [7]
 

You can already do this by buying PLEX and selling it for enough ISK to buy a character.

Sephiroth CloneIIV
Rim Worlds Republic
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:29:00 - [8]
 

this is a bad idea, give it not everyone is on the forums but it is a good sampling of the population.

Ask the thousand in jita, and they will tell you unanimously it is a dumb idea.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:37:00 - [9]
 

+6 implant - 250 mil
+7 implant - 1 bil
+8 implant - 2.5 bil
+9 implant - 5 bil
+10 implant - 10 bil

Looks go to me. Plus they can be destroyed.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:41:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: The Pteradactyl
+6 implant - 250 mil
+7 implant - 1 bil
+8 implant - 2.5 bil
+9 implant - 5 bil
+10 implant - 10 bil

Looks go to me. Plus they can be destroyed.


Obviously, this is meant to be the equivalent Aurum amount rather than ISK. Not sure if that value has fluctuated yet.

Manique
Caldari
Ominous Corp
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:36:00 - [11]
 

simply put no, NEVER. training times means players are tought patience. can you deal with patience ?

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:48:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Manique
simply put no, NEVER. training times means players are tought patience. can you deal with patience ?

So your argument is that when a person pays for entertainment time then instead of receiving entertainment value they should be taught patience?

My first character was created on October 28th 2003, I know how EVE works. I also know that in a day and age where lots of entertainment offers are competing for one's limited time a game which requires you to be patient for two years is doomed.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:51:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Manique
simply put no, NEVER. training times means players are tought patience. can you deal with patience ?


Patience is fine, it just doesn't exist in this game. You can already purchase SP for real money via PLEX in the character bazaar. All this would do is make characters more customizable. Instead playing a toon somebody else created you can play your own, with your own skills, name etc. Can you deal with reality?

Navarone Medion
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:00:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Navarone Medion on 27/06/2011 22:01:02
As still a relatively young player, I have to say, from my perspective atleast, this is something I feel strongly about.

Selling SP will break one of the major things that brings people back. People take breaks to train long queues sometimes, and its stupidity to offer a speedier alternative as it will result in loss of immersion, loss of cash as people will get bored quicker by ataining goals fast thus resulting in subs being ended quicker and a detrimental effect on the long term veterans who influence the game overall. Any scrub just jumping into any ship simply deprives the pilot of experience, and means a lack of balance between players.

To ask for such a thing is rather idiotic to be honest. You break the time investment many people have placed into their characters, as well as god knows how many other negative effects. Think before posting such suggestions.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:18:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: The Pteradactyl on 27/06/2011 22:20:29
Originally by: Navarone Medion
Selling SP will break one of the major things that brings people back. People take breaks to train long queues sometimes, and its stupidity to offer a speedier alternative as it will result in loss of immersion, loss of cash as people will get bored quicker by ataining goals fast thus resulting in subs being ended quicker and a detrimental effect on the long term veterans who influence the game overall. Any scrub just jumping into any ship simply deprives the pilot of experience, and means a lack of balance between players.

To ask for such a thing is rather idiotic to be honest. You break the time investment many people have placed into their characters, as well as god knows how many other negative effects. Think before posting such suggestions.


Firstly, I'm interested to know how people taking breaks to train long skill queue's improves immersion for you. It seems like the opposite is true.

Second, characters are already sold for ISK on the character bazaar. A brand new player can use PLEX to purchase a titan pilot and titan on their first day. (I realize it would cost many thousands of dollars, this is theoretical.) If a +6 implant (which would shorten skill queues by a very small amount over a +5, and can be easily lost) would break the game then how is the game not already broken?.. It's not broken because nothing can replace the experience of playing vs the skill point of a player. The rookies in titans will lose the titans regardless of SP.

Third, it is clear you are new. Think about your points before making them.

Navarone Medion
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:28:00 - [16]
 

I wasn't debating implants so don't be cute. I was talking about direct SP sales.

Implants, viable but outright SP sales are idiotic. You can feel free to debate this with me but even you will have to admit unless your clueless it's a slap in the face of long time players. Think before talking. This topic was not about implants, it was about selling SP outright.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:37:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: The Pteradactyl on 27/06/2011 22:38:38
Originally by: Navarone Medion
I wasn't debating implants so don't be cute. I was talking about direct SP sales.

Implants, viable but outright SP sales are idiotic. You can feel free to debate this with me but even you will have to admit unless your clueless it's a slap in the face of long time players. Think before talking. This topic was not about implants, it was about selling SP outright.


True, I guess when people refer to selling SP I figure there has to be more to it than that. Straight up SP selling would be out of character even beyond CCP's recent PR nightmare. It would be like EVE just straight up selling ISK (not PLEX, but hard ISK). EVE wouldn't sell straight SP it would use some other medium. I don't think you have a valid fear.

Sorry, not being cute just overestimated you.

The Pteradactyl
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:40:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Navarone Medion
I wasn't debating implants so don't be cute. I was talking about direct SP sales.

Implants, viable but outright SP sales are idiotic. You can feel free to debate this with me but even you will have to admit unless your clueless it's a slap in the face of long time players. Think before talking. This topic was not about implants, it was about selling SP outright.


I do agree that this would be bad though. Thanks for your contribution.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:04:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Navarone Medion
Implants, viable but outright SP sales are idiotic. You can feel free to debate this with me but even you will have to admit unless your clueless it's a slap in the face of long time players.

Let's just start by stating the fact that SP sales are already happening and they are immensely popular both on the sanctioned forums via ISK (which is RL cash via PLEX) as well as on 3rd party sites for RL cash straight up.

So it's really not clear what you are talking about when you say they would be idiotic.

I am a long time player and I wouldn't feel slapped in the face. I would welcome the opportunity to buy SP from CCP directly rather than by proxy. When you buy someone else's character for RL cash (via PLEX to ISK) you are stuck with their name, their portrait (for the time being, till you get to change it for PLEX), with their history (that you as buyer are rarely 100% aware of), and with whatever choices they have made skillpoint wise.

When you pay CCP straight up for skillpoints you have a much stronger bond with the character you create not because you paid for it but because you decide the name, the appearance, and the skillpoint allocation. That is an argument that's based on logic rather than emotion.

All I have heard in opposition to straight SP sales are arguments which are all based on logical fallacies such as appeal to emotion, fear, pity, tradition, etc. but not one argument that's actually based on logic.

If you have one to present I welcome it. I am curious as to what logical reason there can be to not allow SP sales.

Navarone Medion
Posted - 2011.06.28 03:08:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Navarone Medion on 28/06/2011 03:08:56
Your completely off the mark in regards to selling LP. Character purchases are not limitless, and thus, are trained by paying accounts. If the ability to outright by LP was introduced the following would happen;


Rookies would no doubt jump into something large and powerful and lose it quickly. Thus, the eve market itself would suffer due to supply and demand issues.

Nullsec alliances with people who RMT (lets not beat around the bush, it happens) will have the ability to train supercap pilots in weeks rather than months, so instead of the current trend of them being used in countable numbers, we would end up in a cluster**** of supercaps online.

You would be spitting in the face of oh say anyone who has played the game more than six months and has invested time and determination to get where they are.

The sandbox would quite literally be turned into a kiddies swimming pool, urine and chlorine and all.


Your either an excellent troll or completely deluded. Implants are one thing, selling SP outright is the road to f2p and iwin buttons. It balances nothing and simply screws the sandbox epicly. Feel free to vainly try make points about the bazaar, but understand the bazaar will always have limited toons at limited times regardless of how frequent sales occur. SP sales would literally destroy everything that makes EvE what it is. It should take time to train for ships. It should take time to get t2 weapon systems. If you hand it out for cash, you remove the entire point of the SP system.

Humpink Omaristos
Posted - 2011.06.28 04:00:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Navarone Medion
Your either an excellent troll or completely deluded.
[...]
If you hand it out for cash, you remove the entire point of the SP system.

I won't argue with you because you are clearly set in your view and no reasonable and logical argument will even be considered by you. However, the point of the SP system is and always has been to have players pay a monthly subscription fee for eternity to come. Invested time and determination has nothing to do with it because all you needed to do was pay and wait. It takes neither skill nor determination to do so. SP have always been handed out for cash, just at a much slower pace.

Unlimited titan pilots? So what, there are only so many Titans being built. The pilots have never been the limiting factor when it comes to how many Titans are operational, it's always been the availability of new ships. If you had any insight in that level of alliance warfare you'd know that.

Traxaur
Posted - 2011.06.28 04:24:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: TheTravler
It was brought up before and the community said HELL NO!!!

That would give an advantage to someone for spening RL money. We as a community DO NOT WANT non vanity items being bought with RL money. Even Vanity items should be made by players. This game is a player driver economy. KEEP IT THAT WAY!


You're pretty naive if you think those with rl cash to spend don't already have an "advantage" over you.

Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.28 04:40:00 - [23]
 

Originally, as in all of my posts, I'm against non-vanity items that can give a player an advantage.

However, Humpink makes some valid points, and the arguments you guys throw back at him are either quite poor, or Humpink has some pretty good rebuttle... Humpink seems to be winning this debate in terms of providing good reasoning (my personal preferences aside).

If I may say however, (again I'd like to remind you that I'm originally against non-vanity, items), IF, yes if, and ONLY if CCP was going to introduce non-vanity items, I would hope that they would also involve spending of isk and for anything SP related, have VERY STRICT rules apply - i.e. Only characters with less than 1.6mil be able to buy such items or something.

I mean seriously guys.. if you truly ignore your own prejudice, for just a short moment, and consider what this will mean for the game (trying to think of the positives)...

- new player experience will be so much better
- you can invite your friends and they might actually enjoy the game rather than get bored so quickly and give-up
- (i'm sure you can think of another one)

And CONSIDER THIS!!

Are you seriously going to be against the idea of being able to blow-up an expensive ship that's been fitted and flown by a noob?

More easy kills guys! Better kills too!

And more players in general!


Yes, there are a few CONs/negatives... everything has CONs! But people are creating (or already have created) cyno-alts! They are always going to be a factor.. this minor change (which we've had before with the 100% training bonus to new characters, and before that characters started with 900k SP) will hardly make a difference... (yes I know we all had the learning skills removed.. but this as I sad before is only a short little boost for newer players to give them a little helping start) ..or are you threatened by a 1.6mil SP character in a frigate which is probably poorly fit?

Are you jealous of later generations having it a 'little' easier than it was for you in your first month?

(again) Are you against having more people to shoot at? More people to buy from you?

sorry for long post.. but I think people really need to just give it a little thought (without prejudice)

REMINDER: I prefer there to be no non-vanity items at all! But if CCP is going to do it regardless.. this one I could live with Very Happy


cheers

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.06.28 08:49:00 - [24]
 

Do you realize what you are saying? Instant afk cloakers. Instant cyno alts. Instant suicide gankers. The RMTers will love it! Now they can use some of their RMT'd isk or cash to make new toons fully capable of botting at max profitability instantly!

What do you think of Drakes? Wait until you get a corp populated entirely by day old noob toons in fully-skilled missile spewing bricks!

Or worse, they cash out for a Nyx+pilot. With SP, ships, and skills all available for cash, every swinging **** in nul will be sporting a super with spinners.

As for the real noobs and not just the new toons owned by experienced players, they will get eaten alive by vets. CCP will have to deal with a never-ending stream of petitions from 12-year-olds who stole daddy's credit card crying about how the bad men touched them in inappropriate places on their super dildo ship, and they should get reimbursed because they didn't know they needed a cyno alt to go anywhere.

So, no. I do not and never will support SP for cash. (No, don't talk about implants.)

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:00:00 - [25]
 

No.

Kara Audanie
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:03:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kara Audanie on 28/06/2011 09:07:33
Originally by: Soldarius
Do you realize what you are saying? Instant afk cloakers. Instant cyno alts. Instant suicide gankers. The RMTers will love it! Now they can use some of their RMT'd isk or cash to make new toons fully capable of botting at max profitability instantly!

What do you think of Drakes? Wait until you get a corp populated entirely by day old noob toons in fully-skilled missile spewing bricks!

Or worse, they cash out for a Nyx+pilot. With SP, ships, and skills all available for cash, every swinging **** in nul will be sporting a super with spinners.

As for the real noobs and not just the new toons owned by experienced players, they will get eaten alive by vets. CCP will have to deal with a never-ending stream of petitions from 12-year-olds who stole daddy's credit card crying about how the bad men touched them in inappropriate places on their super dildo ship, and they should get reimbursed because they didn't know they needed a cyno alt to go anywhere.

So, no. I do not and never will support SP for cash. (No, don't talk about implants.)


This.

Also I suspected that after a year if CCP ever implemented that P2W SP for $$$. Many noobs would say to the REAL veterans, "LOLOL Why you no buy SP? YOU ARE A NOOB! You're in a Drake and I have a Nyx with all SP maxed out!"

SP for $$$ take away the fun factors in EVE. Evil or Very Mad

Alpine 69
Rubbish Superheroes
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:14:00 - [27]
 

I can imagine the never-ending stream of mails on the killboards with supercapitals and faction battleships sporting comedy fittings.

PLEASE NO. The idea is stupid in every possible way.

loco coco
Infinite Mobility
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:18:00 - [28]
 

Maybe $1 per 50 SP, MAYBE. But 1,000,000 for $15? You're mentally ill.

Iteration X
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:56:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Humpink Omaristos

Originally by: Boomer Aires

2. Addiding Non Vanity Items will destroy the player-driven economy



2. No it won't. CCP isn't stupid.


This is circular... the idea is "stupid," or not, in the context of the game, on its own merits. You're asserting that CCP isn't stupid. Why? Because they don't do stupid things! And why is this not a stupid thing? Because CCP isn't stupid! Logic fail.

-smoke and mirrors about faction ships deleted, because behind that we have...-
Quote:

Will selling SP kill the player driven market? Nope, it will merely adjust character values.

Non-vanity items is really a different discussion from SP though. There's no global downside to start selling SP.

ya don't say. Here's a thing to ponder:

During that time of skill training and game playing, what ships did you fly? What modules did you fit?

Now, a large chunk of people pay for skillpoints. We must assume it's large, or CCP isn't doing it, seeing as they're not dumb and all and this is going to work out well for them, right?

So all those players skip the frigates and crap modules. Hell, let's make a pyramid: a small percentage of them go totally nuts and spend ridiculous amounts of real-life cash to get right at capital ships. We'll ignore those, because they're outliers.

A larger percentage "stop" at battleships. Instantly, they've bypassed frigates, cruisers, and very likely all of T1.

Most of them, at the bottom of the pyramid, skip crap frigates, or maybe frigs altogether and go for cruisers. We must assume they *at least* skip the lowest rung or two of ships and modules, or else *there's no point in doing this.*

So. Having removed a huge portion of the demand for all those items... how exactly does this not affect the economy again?

Iteration X
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.28 11:58:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Alpine 69
I can imagine the never-ending stream of mails on the killboards with supercapitals and faction battleships sporting comedy fittings.

PLEASE NO. The idea is stupid in every possible way.

Honestly - this is not a downside. Yes, inexperienced pilots with no clue whatsoever will be flying around with very expensive things, not knowing how to use them or what 0.0 means or any other damn thing. If you think about that for a minute, you will realize there's no downside to this.

I'm just not sure it will overcome the weirdness it will do to the economy, and the economy is kinda 99.9% of the original vision of this game.


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