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Lu'Marat
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:25:00 - [1]
 

Enough whining, enough jumping to conclusions, enough jumping the bandwagon and most of all enough mobs shouting themselves into a frenzy.

You, my fine fellow people, are acting like spoiled brats.

So yeah, CCP messed up. Again. (and again).
Are things fine and dandy? Hell no, there's tons of things need fixing, CCP need to get off their arses and go back to the corporate culture that brought about EVE, et cetera.

But CCP admitted they messed up, they admitted their treatment of the players was bad, and they've promised to go in depth with us (represented by the CSM, which was elected by us exactly for situations like these) and they've promised to find a solution.
I for one think that's fair, and as good a plan as we're going to get.

But still, the forum rage goes on, even if it has died down a bit, just to have those remaining stamping double hard and making sure everyone has two torches for extra torching. What's worse, what I read in most of your posts is "I figured EVE's dead, I can't make it better, but by hell if I can't give it another sound kicking". That is pathetic.

Feel free to rage all you want, but until CCP doesn't default on their promise for the meeting, all it does is make you sound like a bunch of angsty carebears whose expensive toy just got blown up by the big bad piwates. Boo. Hoo.

(Obviously, this is not directed at those of you who actually try to argue a reflected point. But those have largely calmed down anyway.)

That said (yes, I really needed that vent), think about this: If you really think EVE is going to go pay to win, do you really think that'll work if all those who are now quitting in tears instead manned up and just shot down the rich bastards in their gold ubernoughts?

Tahir ul-Batin
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:28:00 - [2]
 

+1

Haeri
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:39:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Haeri on 27/06/2011 11:39:38
Of the same mind as OP.

What really gets to me the most are all the personal attacks against CCP employees only doing their job, or even against other players. Altough I suppose I'm just a whiny idiot expecting that common courtesy would be possible to achieve on any anonymous internet spaceship forum. But seriously, please grow up, the people whom you assault are real.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:39:00 - [4]
 

With plex there already IS a way to P2W. The lastest dev-blog clearly stated no 'gold ammo', which is (I think) a phrase that came from Mittani's to define all that is P2W.

That doesn't mean there needs to be some serious discussion with CCP about communicating top-level management decisions with the players, about the reason why 'macro-transactions' don't work, why it's unacceptable to force CQ onto players if they could just as easily made a 2-phase undocking-process.

And then there is the handling of the community of which they could only have done a worse job if, like said in the eve-radio CSM-meeting 'CCP Zulu made that statement while wearing a Monocle'.

Meanwhile the pressure must be kept up so CCP doesn't get the false impression that they can just smooth this over with words of appeasement. Hilmar's email right back at him.

Boaz Hedion Merkava
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:41:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Tobiaz
With plex there already IS a way to P2W. The lastest dev-blog clearly stated no 'gold ammo', which is (I think) a phrase that came from Mittani's to define all that is P2W.

That doesn't mean there needs to be some serious discussion with CCP about communicating top-level management decisions with the players, about the reason why 'macro-transactions' don't work, why it's unacceptable to force CQ onto players if they could just as easily made a 2-phase undocking-process.

And then there is the handling of the community of which they could only have done a worse job if, like said in the eve-radio CSM-meeting 'CCP Zulu made that statement while wearing a Monocle'.

Meanwhile the pressure must be kept up so CCP doesn't get the false impression that they can just smooth this over with words of appeasement. Hilmar's email right back at him.


This


Confuzer
Volition Cult
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:17:00 - [6]
 

Spoiled brats indeed.

Okay CCP released to fast, okay prices of clothes and stuff are high (who cares?).

Pay a little respect to the developers and the people who created it all, and give them time to process our feedback. I am sure they will look at contributing posts and remember them when discussing the topics at hand.

The negativity + shouting is too much and flooding my much appreciated game. Please leave to another game, you really don't deserve attention. Imho those doing it too much should be warned and otherwise be banned from the forums.

For the CCP staff members: please ignore them all and look at the feedback from the people who care. I think it's good to make a public blog about it, but don't get pulled in negativity, as it will be bad for your motivation. There are plenty of people who you don't hear, who are quietly playing the game (looking at the people logged in). Focus on them.

And no, I am no CCP alt (another childish thing to say btw...)

Haven Wind
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:23:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lu'Marat
Enough whining, enough jumping to conclusions, enough jumping the bandwagon and most of all enough mobs shouting themselves into a frenzy.

You, my fine fellow people, are acting like spoiled brats.

So yeah, CCP messed up. Again. (and again).
Are things fine and dandy? Hell no, there's tons of things need fixing, CCP need to get off their arses and go back to the corporate culture that brought about EVE, et cetera.

But CCP admitted they messed up, they admitted their treatment of the players was bad, and they've promised to go in depth with us (represented by the CSM, which was elected by us exactly for situations like these) and they've promised to find a solution.
I for one think that's fair, and as good a plan as we're going to get.

But still, the forum rage goes on, even if it has died down a bit, just to have those remaining stamping double hard and making sure everyone has two torches for extra torching. What's worse, what I read in most of your posts is "I figured EVE's dead, I can't make it better, but by hell if I can't give it another sound kicking". That is pathetic.

Feel free to rage all you want, but until CCP doesn't default on their promise for the meeting, all it does is make you sound like a bunch of angsty carebears whose expensive toy just got blown up by the big bad piwates. Boo. Hoo.

(Obviously, this is not directed at those of you who actually try to argue a reflected point. But those have largely calmed down anyway.)

That said (yes, I really needed that vent), think about this: If you really think EVE is going to go pay to win, do you really think that'll work if all those who are now quitting in tears instead manned up and just shot down the rich bastards in their gold ubernoughts?


+1

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:26:00 - [8]
 

I think you'll find that it's the leaked emails more than anything that has fired people up.

Honestly, who gives a **** about a mod for your character?

What annoys me greatly is that CCp think greed is good, and will do anything to get it.

They have said in the recent past that they will NOT bring in MTs at all. And now they have.

They have said they will NOT bring in gold ammo. With their recent reactions, people believe (and rightly so) that they will bring in gold ammo.

CCP use to be different. they use to have an awesome game. Now they have smeared it in **** and have become just another version of Sony, or EA.

Want further reading? Check the thread up to 350 odd pages. Started by Someone at CCp wanting to talk to everyone about it. After 350 odd pages, there is no other post by anyone from CCP.

I am sick of their lying.

Uther Istavel
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:27:00 - [9]
 

*i've

as i said in a previous post, it wont be just one guy floating around in his ubernaught, it will be entire corps, then entire alliances until the only way you can compete is by paying your subs, selling plex AND buying ships with rl cash.

not good.

Confuzer
Volition Cult
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:32:00 - [10]
 

People just forgot they were playing a game. Also, an ubernaught could have been bought by PLEX. So, why all the riots now?

Useless.

Grab a beer, turn of the CQ view and exit the station for some pew pew. Don't waste your time whining.

Tosser Galore
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Confuzer
People just forgot they were playing a game. Also, an ubernaught could have been bought by PLEX. So, why all the riots now?

Useless.

Grab a beer, turn of the CQ view and exit the station for some pew pew. Don't waste your time whining.



Yes you are useless.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:40:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Confuzer
People just forgot they were playing a game. Also, an ubernaught could have been bought by PLEX. So, why all the riots now?

Useless.

Grab a beer, turn of the CQ view and exit the station for some pew pew. Don't waste your time whining.


CCP just forgot we are customers who pay.

Any like any customer who receives goods of substandard quality, we let them know.

Rrama Ratamnim
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:41:00 - [13]
 

+1

Rex Liberium
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Confuzer
People just forgot they were playing a game. Also, an ubernaught could have been bought by PLEX. So, why all the riots now?

Useless.

Grab a beer, turn of the CQ view and exit the station for some pew pew. Don't waste your time whining.


CCP just forgot we are customers who pay.

Any like any customer who receives goods of substandard quality, we let them know.


To all the non-whners whining in this thread about the whiners, please go back to walking aoround in your station. Best way to show your support is to play the game and leave us whiners to whine.

tex sharky
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:44:00 - [15]
 

to the op: pay-to-win aur shop messes with soo many concepts and principles that you just touched tip of the iceberg. go back to reading threadnaught.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:46:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tobiaz
With plex there already IS a way to P2W. The lastest dev-blog clearly stated no 'gold ammo', which is (I think) a phrase that came from Mittani's to define all that is P2W.

That doesn't mean there needs to be some serious discussion with CCP about communicating top-level management decisions with the players, about the reason why 'macro-transactions' don't work, why it's unacceptable to force CQ onto players if they could just as easily made a 2-phase undocking-process.

And then there is the handling of the community of which they could only have done a worse job if, like said in the eve-radio CSM-meeting 'CCP Zulu made that statement while wearing a Monocle'.

Meanwhile the pressure must be kept up so CCP doesn't get the false impression that they can just smooth this over with words of appeasement. Hilmar's email right back at him.


Plex isn't P2W it is pay to have another PLAYER do what you are too lazy to do. That playerstill needs to do it the way any other Player would need to do it if you weren't lazy. Buy a character after selling all the plex you bought, another PLAYER had to maintain a sub and train that character for X months/years. Buy ships, another PLAYER had to manufacture that ship, gather the minerals, buy the BPO, research it etc. Get faction gear, someone had to play the game to harvest those things, etc.

P2W is about getting around the gameplay to get your stuff. Don't want to grind to get that ship, give CCP $ and they magick it in game for you. Don't want to train a character for x months/years pay CCP $ and they magick a character up for you or award you the SP you paid for. That is P2W, the money gives you the power to get around the game's limitations in EVE, that screws up the whole model of the game.

You go from finite resources to infinite resources spawned as quickly as you can click a button marked PURCHASE.

TooNu
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:47:00 - [17]
 

Oh ok dad

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:47:00 - [18]
 

Another useless CCP fanboi in ranting how he is tired of rage quitters and "thinks" everything will be fine

Jail Baiter
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:51:00 - [19]
 


oh great another rage thread.

...I thought we were in the denial stage now?

Fiire Watch
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:52:00 - [20]
 

Sigh.. yet another whiner

Ayame Yubari
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:54:00 - [21]
 

Funny how people still don't get the difference between Plex and MT. If you really don't understand what many people have already explained by now (the thin-air argument), why don't you ask yourself this simple question: why is CCP introducing a new currency and a new separate cash shop if Plex already did the same thing?

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Confuzer
People just forgot they were playing a game. Also, an ubernaught could have been bought by PLEX. So, why all the riots now?

Useless.

Grab a beer, turn of the CQ view and exit the station for some pew pew. Don't waste your time whining.


The main difference between PLEX and AUR is that the items bought with AUR are not made by the players and are from outside the sandbox.
If you buy a Titan with PLEX, the EVE players that made that Titan get the ISK/PLEX and everything is fine.

With AUR, the players get nothing and the sandbox cycle is broken.
You could buy a whole Titan with nothing but dollars (which other players may not be able to match) and then the entire EVE ecomony is disrupted and begins to run on just dollars/euros.
To compete, others would have to invest real money or lose to those who have invested said money already.

If I could buy an AUR Titan with 20 euros and you can't cough up the 20 euros yourself, you'd lose to real money and that ruins the game completely.

What I don't get it was AUR was even introduced rather than just adding variants of PLEX for varying ISK prices (so that if you want to buy something with 30mil you dont need to get a 300mil PLEX for it).

The other thing I don't get is why the AUR items are not manufacturable by players other than that CCP didn't want them to possibly start costing less real money.

Nilania Telshua
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:00:00 - [23]
 

PLEX -> PLAYER <-> MARKET <-> PLAYER

1.a) A plex is sold so people can buy stuff on the market that other people produce.
1.b) Some other player can buy the PLEX with ingame time and play on without investing RL cash.


PLEX -> AUR -> PLAYER
1.a) A PLEX is transformed into Aurum. A player buys shinies or should it come to that P2W.


PLEX -> Benefits Self & Many & Others
AURUM -> Benefits Self

Its not that hard to understand.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:02:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Lu'Marat
Enough whining, enough jumping to conclusions, enough jumping the bandwagon and most of all enough mobs shouting themselves into a frenzy.

Blah, blah blah.

That said (yes, I really needed that vent), think about this: If you really think EVE is going to go pay to win, do you really think that'll work if all those who are now quitting in tears instead manned up and just shot down the rich bastards in their gold ubernoughts?


YOU can't quit because no one wants your stufz.

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:06:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: I''thari on 27/06/2011 13:06:31
Originally by: Lu'Marat
Enough whining, enough jumping to conclusions, enough jumping the bandwagon and most of all enough mobs shouting themselves into a frenzy.

You, my fine fellow people, are acting like spoiled brats.

So yeah, CCP messed up. Again. (and again).
Are things fine and dandy? Hell no, there's tons of things need fixing, CCP need to get off their arses and go back to the corporate culture that brought about EVE, et cetera.
For a couple of years now, really....

Originally by: Lu'Marat
But CCP admitted they messed up, they admitted their treatment of the players was bad, and they've promised to go in depth with us (represented by the CSM, which was elected by us exactly for situations like these) and they've promised to find a solution.
Again Wink

Originally by: Lu'Marat
I for one think that's fair, and as good a plan as we're going to get.
Good for you, I suppose

Originally by: Lu'Marat
But still, the forum rage goes on, even if it has died down a bit, just to have those remaining stamping double hard and making sure everyone has two torches for extra torching. What's worse, what I read in most of your posts is "I figured EVE's dead, I can't make it better, but by hell if I can't give it another sound kicking". That is pathetic.
Welcome to EVE, that's exactly in spirit of "dark cold universe".

Originally by: Lu'Marat
Feel free to rage all you want, but until CCP doesn't default on their promise for the meeting, all it does is make you sound like a bunch of angsty carebears whose expensive toy just got blown up by the big bad piwates. Boo. Hoo.

(Obviously, this is not directed at those of you who actually try to argue a reflected point. But those have largely calmed down anyway.)

That said (yes, I really needed that vent), think about this: If you really think EVE is going to go pay to win, do you really think that'll work if all those who are now quitting in tears instead manned up and just shot down the rich bastards in their gold ubernoughts?
And what would be the point? If you just can spawn ship out of thin air to fight in - that is death to both industry and market as they are today. Imagine paying 10M for rifter hull (and 10x of that for basic fitting) to fight those gold ubernoughts. Still as fun?

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Nilania Telshua
PLEX -> PLAYER <-> MARKET <-> PLAYER

1.a) A plex is sold so people can buy stuff on the market that other people produce.
1.b) Some other player can buy the PLEX with ingame time and play on without investing RL cash.


PLEX -> AUR -> PLAYER
1.a) A PLEX is transformed into Aurum. A player buys shinies or should it come to that P2W.


PLEX -> Benefits Self & Many & Others
AURUM -> Benefits Self

Its not that hard to understand.

Apparently it is that hard to understand.

How does it matter if a PLEX is converted to AUR or game time? They both only benefit one person!

How this person got hold of the PLEX is totally irrelevant. Either he paid RL cash for it, or he paid isk for it (in which case someone else had to pay RL cash for it, and made isk when selling it).

How is it such a travesty when he converts his PLEX into AUR but not when he converts it into game time, both of which only benefit him?

VeloxMors
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:24:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Lu'Marat
But CCP admitted they messed up, they admitted their treatment of the players was bad, and they've promised to go in depth with us (represented by the CSM, which was elected by us exactly for situations like these)


CSM is meant to be a panel of representatives of the players, that much is true. But CCP does not have the requirement (and often the tact) to listen to the CSM or include the CSM when they ought to. Moreover, the CSM is bound to a nondisclosure agreement.

So, CCP will talk to the CSM, but the CSM can't tell us anything about what happened. If this goes like it always has, CCP will listen to what the CSM delegates have to say, and then completely ignore their opinions when it comes to decision-making time. It's just a way for CCP to appear like they're listening to the players, nothing more.

Confuzer
Volition Cult
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:28:00 - [28]
 

Quote:
The main difference between PLEX and AUR is that the items bought with AUR are not made by the players and are from outside the sandbox.
If you buy a Titan with PLEX, the EVE players that made that Titan get the ISK/PLEX and everything is fine.

With AUR, the players get nothing and the sandbox cycle is broken.


No, I don't get it. How is a skillbook you buy from a virtual corporation for instance different from that? Even, a skill you can't sell anymore, vanity items you can. Vanity items are as much a part of the sandbox, they are just another dimension to sink your isk in.

And where does it say you can buy ships with Aur? You'll have to convert them to plex, which completes the cycle.

Stormchyld
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:32:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Tobiaz
With plex there already IS a way to P2W. The lastest dev-blog clearly stated no 'gold ammo', which is (I think) a phrase that came from Mittani's to define all that is P2W.

That doesn't mean there needs to be some serious discussion with CCP about communicating top-level management decisions with the players, about the reason why 'macro-transactions' don't work, why it's unacceptable to force CQ onto players if they could just as easily made a 2-phase undocking-process.

And then there is the handling of the community of which they could only have done a worse job if, like said in the eve-radio CSM-meeting 'CCP Zulu made that statement while wearing a Monocle'.

Meanwhile the pressure must be kept up so CCP doesn't get the false impression that they can just smooth this over with words of appeasement. Hilmar's email right back at him.


....+1

Lu'Marat
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:32:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Lu''Marat on 27/06/2011 13:55:23
Alright, where do I start.
First off, I started playing in, I think, 2006, but it's been off and on and I just returned from a one-and-a-half year break, so I am fairly confident I do not qualify for the CCP fanboi tag, sorry.

Still, I have spent enough time in the game to have a good grasp on the game dynamics, certainly enough to know that yes, should CCP introduce the wrong things in the item shop, the game can break down. Given my experience with other games with item shops (actually going back to text MUDs in 199x), I believe the only real risk are
- items only available via cash which give a significant advantage over items available via ISK. (given that AUR is available via cash, and AUR-bought items are meant to filter into the ISK market as well, that is already severely mitigated.)
- items that provide people with so many resources at so low a price that it is indeed pointless to go any other way to acquire resources. Given how prices in the item shop are, given how the eve market works, I think it highly unlikely that this will come about. Sure, it will shift the market to some extent, like every patch and expansion does, but it will be far from saturated.

Also, there are ways how CCP can implement powerful in-game items like ships without generating infinite resources. One simple way is to not sell the items directly but selling BPCs for their production. Not only does this not create surplus supply of resources that strangles the market, it actually creates more -demand- for resources, i.e. the exact opposite.

What I am trying to say is this:
It is not as simple as "non-vanity aurum items will crush the market and create unbeatable uber-alliances." Sure, there are some roads CCP could go down that would result in this end. But there are plenty of ways they can choose that will actually benefit the game as well. Shouldn't our focus lie on helping CCP decide which is which, and not on slamming CCP for their wrong decisions so far?

Finally, on the topic of "keeping up the pressure", I'll say this:
I have been in protests before, I've been part of strikes, I've been part of sit-ins and boycots, and not just for a few days. The essence of what I took away from these is: There's a huge difference between keeping somebody under pressure, and alienating them to the point of no return. And, what I have also taken away from these occasions, and I think that is particularly important right now: The more you tell yourself and others how bad things are, the worse they will seem, and the less likely it is that they will improve.

CCP maybe introducing the wrong stuff to the AUR market may kill the game. Enough of you walking out in rage after working each other into a frenzy WILL kill the game, at least for you and for those whose gameplay depends on you.


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