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Elina Tan
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:01:00 - [1141]
 

Originally by: jackaloped

CSM PR STUNT

(...)

Please don't even try to turn this into some fluff piece about how well CCP listens to the players through the csm. You guys are too much to stomach.



Cut 'em some slack, will ya? Of course CCP aren't going to debate the matter with each and every individual posting here -- and even in my angriest hour I wasn't expecting them to. The CSM officially speaks for the EVE players, that's just how it works, and it's a fair arrangement. And since the CSM has made clear, on several occasions, to be eminently aware of the real issues, doh, you can safely take off your tinfoil hat now. :)

Do I fully trust CCP again? Not really, no; but I trust that the message finally got thru to them: either because of the bad publicity, or because of what we wrote here -- it doesn't matter, really (except maybe for a few bruised egos).

Where CCP will take EVE in the future, only they know (and maybe not even that). I trust in the CSM enough, though, to let CCP know in which direction we, the people, don't want to see EVE go. And should the outcome of it all be that CCP goes ahead with pay-to-win items regardless, then I'll trust the CSM to communicate that bad news to us as well.

So, nothing left for me than to just sit back a week and wait what word returns from Iceland. It's going to be an interesting set of meetings, at least, of that I'm sure. :)

P.S. I'm getting the impression some folks just want to stay angry now for the sake of being angry. Your choice, I guess, but I fear you're rapidly losing the moral high ground. The man said they know what the issue is, and that they'll discuss it with our representative body, the CSM. Anger beyond that, or until alleged negative results are back, is either overdone or premature.

Karadan Kaarwen
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:30:00 - [1142]
 

I still see a lot of needless foaming going on here. Regardless of what has happened so far (most of which has been based upon conjecture and hot air) surely it's prudent to wait until there's concrete confirmation either way?

All these leaks have done is damage a company which makes a game many of us very much like. If some internal musings from the organisation i work for were to be made public, all hell would break loose. They aren't for public consumption because they aren't yet formally drawn up. None of the legal or technical stuff has been worked out and tests haven't yet been performed. The premature publication of it could mean the end of mine and all my colleagues' careers. This is why corporate privacy is a good thing and in the case of CCP, a tragedy that it's been broken in such spectacular fashion. Someone deserves to get their asses sued.

It is for this reason alone i hold any judgement of CCP until i see something concrete. I did the same thing when i was screwed by SOE with SWG's new game enhancements. I left the hyperbole until the announcement - THEN i kicked off.

I just feel that when real information is eventually submitted, an apology will probably not be forthcoming from the huge amount of you that have got it so catastrophically incorrect so far. Having been at the unfair receiving end of the braying mob before, i can attest to the frustration-fuelled nausea probably being felt by the majority of CCP right now.

Anyway, I'm just going to chillax and play the game until we hear more. Sounds like a lot of you need to do the same.

Mechatronicus Anihilus
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:39:00 - [1143]
 

Quote:
It is for this reason alone i hold any judgement of CCP until i see something concrete.

A lot of players have already seen something concrete that they do not like and are in the process of letting CCP know this.

Quote:
I still see a lot of needless foaming going on here.


Of course. People who have been repeatedly lied to and mislead by someone they are paying have no right to be angry. Those customers silly enough to be displeased should just quietly go on about their business, elsewhere. Instead, they foul up the purity of your eve existence with their complaints. How dare they...

Enkill Eridos
Draconian Enforcers Available To Hire
Property Management Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:41:00 - [1144]
 

Okay wow..after an appropriate response you losers are still trying cling onto the mob mentality. The people defending CCP, and those with some actual knowledge of the process of designing a video game trying to help out. You know what? If after all this with this well written clear response, you morons are still going on about nex is going to sell sp and other things. It's gotten old and the player's are ruining the game for me before CCP even has a chance to.

For those complaining that CCP has taken less time addressing "game breaking issues" and more time on RP stuff. My response is RP (Role Play) is one thing that is almost absent from EVE. I mean if a person wants to RP currently in a massive fleet or what not. You either have to be loyal to a certain cause, or part of a militia. I have seen very few actual rp happening in EVE. News Flash: RP is not equal to being a carebear. Just like mining does not equal carebear. I know a lot of pvpers that mine because it makes them more money "faster".

With Incarna only just released, which means they are probably working on stuff like station environments so we can leave our cramped CQ's, which I think all Incarna is is updating EVE Online so EVE Online players could physically interact with DUST Players. Those talking about being force fed the new system instead of keeping the crappy outdated old system. Change happens and sometimes you just can't go back, and you can't always get what you want. I have been writing letters for years asking these stereo making companies to make updated record players. The response I got above was the one I posted about change. PVP enhancements, I may be cynical, but I feel that those will not be noticable untill DUST comes out. I mean programming a video game engine is difficult and time consuming, it takes time to find where in the code a bug is, and takes even more time identifying the bugs that a bug fix creates. (Sometimes it happens.) I happen to think they are doing a good job, and I am patient. I mean when they removed learning skills I didn't try and start a mob protest. I understood that the older players just wanted to make things even more difficult for new players. I mean for gamers you people protesting do not have a grasp on the game design process. So, for the second time since this started im gonna say it. I told you so...stop overreacting and be patient. Being a customer does not mean you are always right. Growing up in a family that is apart of a service industry I can tell you 99% of the time the customer is wrong. Only in Disneyworld and Disneyland is the customer always right.




Ehnea Mehk
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:48:00 - [1145]
 

This blog post was a good start. I'm willing to give CCP and CSM a chance to work it out June 30th and July 1st. Let's just wait and see what they hammer out, okay?

Ehnea

Casey Roy
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:48:00 - [1146]
 

Originally by: Enkill Eridos

For those complaining that CCP has taken less time addressing "game breaking issues" and more time on RP stuff. My response is RP (Role Play) is one thing that is almost absent from EVE.



Good idea. Let's get some role players like Enkill involved in Eve.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Vincentus
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:50:00 - [1147]
 

Originally by: Vincentus
Edited by: Vincentus on 26/06/2011 19:44:39
Well, I'm glad you guys finally made a serious commitment to communicate with your customers, and from the tone of your blog I feel like you people have finally realized you have a serious problem on your hands. I am worried about the wording of the gold ammo sentence, as it seems to me that it is obvious that it would have been a lot easier and clearer if you had just said non-vanity items. Inviting the CSM gives me hope however, and I sincerely hope you listen to them. It's in your own interest...

I have 8 days of subscription left, so you have until then to convince me of your good intentions. I will cease protesting and posting here, but please realize I'm not going to make an effort to get the message through again, and that if you screw up again I'm gone without saying another word, and you can add another 3 accounts to the 4000 that are gone and not going to return. Best of luck, I really hope all of this works out.Neutral


Sorry, still posting now and then cause some of the discussions are just too interesting...Sorry I lied CCP Embarassed

Karadan Kaarwen
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:51:00 - [1148]
 

Edited by: Karadan Kaarwen on 27/06/2011 18:51:36
Originally by: Mechatronicus Anihilus

A lot of players have already seen something concrete that they do not like and are in the process of letting CCP know this.


By something concrete you mean the leaked INTERNAL memos not for public consumption? That is exactly my point.. That stuff is supposed to be private.

Originally by: Mechatronicus Anihilus

Of course. People who have been repeatedly lied to and mislead by someone they are paying have no right to be angry. Those customers silly enough to be displeased should just quietly go on about their business, elsewhere. Instead, they foul up the purity of your eve existence with their complaints. How dare they...


Again, complaints based upon internal memos... I'm not saying people don't have the right to be angry. I'm just saying they need to be angry at the right time - with concrete facts. If this information does actually come to fruition, then sure, voice your opinion loudly (as will i) then close your account (as will i).

Customers don't need to hear EVERYTHING which is said about them. If they did, there would be no service industry. The same can be said of people. How many people would really like to know everything everyone thinks about them? Unless you're the most thick skinned person in the universe, you'd want to turn that ability off within minutes.

Mechatronicus Anihilus
Posted - 2011.06.27 18:52:00 - [1149]
 

Originally by: Enkill Eridos
Growing up in a family that is apart of a service industry I can tell you 99% of the time the customer is wrong.


Being part of a family that owns a service industry, I can tell you it doesn't matter who is wrong or who is right. What matters is keeping the customer.

Mechatronicus Anihilus
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:01:00 - [1150]
 

Edited by: Mechatronicus Anihilus on 27/06/2011 19:02:21
Quote:
By something concrete you mean the leaked INTERNAL memos not for public consumption? That is exactly my point.. That stuff is supposed to be private.

Those are just the icing on the cake.


Quote:
Again, complaints based upon internal memos... I'm not saying people don't have the right to be angry.


Yes you did. Did you or did you not just say "I see a lot of needless foaming going on here"? Foaming being an expression of anger, and needless being a word meaning unnecessary.

You are the fastest flipflopper in the West, speeding in a C-squared blur past CCP's vow of "NO MT in EVE" to the series of PR disasters commonly known as the Icarna release.

Karadan Kaarwen
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:09:00 - [1151]
 

Originally by: Mechatronicus Anihilus
Originally by: Enkill Eridos
Growing up in a family that is apart of a service industry I can tell you 99% of the time the customer is wrong.


Being part of a family that owns a service industry, I can tell you it doesn't matter who is wrong or who is right. What matters is keeping the customer.


Exactly! That's why internal company secrets need to stay that way. Even though many customers are douchebags, the business serving them would never call them so to their face. It makes no sense.

Karadan Kaarwen
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:14:00 - [1152]
 

Originally by: Mechatronicus Anihilus


Yes you did. Did you or did you not just say "I see a lot of needless foaming going on here"? Foaming being an expression of anger, and needless being a word meaning unnecessary.


Needless for now, yes, because of what i've stated above. I think you need to re-read what i've typed so that you can fully digest its intonation.


Ren Nekk
Dead Eye Dogs
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:29:00 - [1153]
 

Originally by: Karadan Kaarwen
Originally by: Mechatronicus Anihilus


Yes you did. Did you or did you not just say "I see a lot of needless foaming going on here"? Foaming being an expression of anger, and needless being a word meaning unnecessary.


Needless for now, yes, because of what i've stated above. I think you need to re-read what i've typed so that you can fully digest its intonation.



Wow, it's a really great thing you came by here to clear all this up. We can now quietly retire, having bathed in the light of reason.

Mechatronicus Anihilus
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:30:00 - [1154]
 

Quote:

Exactly! That's why internal company secrets need to stay that way. Even though many customers are douchebags, the business serving them would never call them so to their face. It makes no sense.


Douchebaggery abounds-there is no shortage of it, nor is it soley within the mere confines of an internal memo.

Quote:
Needless for now, yes, because of what i've stated above. I think you need to re-read what i've typed so that you can fully digest its intonation.

I digested your about-face about as well as I'd care to. I would rather not regurgitate more about-faces for me to re-digest. You flip-flopped and don't want to admit it. That's fine. It's something you and CCP have in common, and rather than admit it, you want to point to some leaked memo as the culprit. I'll give you an A for effort because you are trying very hard, and an F for execution, because you are failing just as miserably.

Aloh
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:37:00 - [1155]
 

Ok now some interesting questions,
What about the CSMs that were perma banned for pointing this out to the community? Does that apology extend to them as well? Are their accounts going to be reinstated (assuming they still want them)? They did not release the material rather just linked to it. IF that is covered by the NDA then how can we believe that the CSMs are going to be allowed to tell us the truth after the summit?

Also I have seen references to GMs threatening protesters shooting the Jita Monument stating that they were going to change their Caldari standings to -10. Add in the statements that MT was not going to be in the game. The forcing of CQ even though it is harming *hardware* that is well with in the minimum specs. The fact that quad core Phenom boxes are going to 40% CPU utilization running ONE client. Totally unacceptable behavior. Is this kind of thing being addressed as well?

You speak of trust I have highlighted a few examples of things that have been done that would weaken that.
For the record I don't have issues with MT for Vanity items. And I really don't have issues with even vanity ships that have the same stats as the ships they were cloned from. At your price point my indy has nothing to worry about in his sales. I get CCP wanting/needing to make more money. And I am fine with vanity sales. If you are going to make changes to the game just be honest about it. And don't make code that is not even really alpha ready mandatory.

raker
Posted - 2011.06.27 19:47:00 - [1156]
 



We have made our point, CCP now know the playerbase arent happy and they know they need to act

They have called a meeting and Im sure they realise that this meeting has to iron out the issues raised and they need to be seen to act on the outcome of that meeting

They know thier business could hang on that meeting

So I feel we should wait to see the outcome of that meeting and then judge CCP by it's actions

Seamus Odoone
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:01:00 - [1157]
 

All I can say is thanks to Zulu for realising what he had done wrong and clarified stuff with us in a good communicative way. Look forward to what happens next and hope hate posts will stop now as they can go somewhere else if they feel that way.

Ranita Drell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:04:00 - [1158]
 

Edited by: Ranita Drell on 27/06/2011 21:41:13
Originally by: Karadan Kaarwen
It is for this reason alone i hold any judgement of CCP until i see something concrete. I did the same thing when i was screwed by SOE with SWG's new game enhancements. I left the hyperbole until the announcement - THEN i kicked off.

And how did that work out for you?

We don't know exactly what motivated the leak, but a real possibility is that someone had a legitimate concern about the direction in which CCP is taking us, and hoped to give players a voice in changing that direction before it's too late.

The Fearless newsletter tells us, if nothing else, that CCP is interested in pursuing non-vanity MT -- else why discuss it, even as an exaggerated hypothetical? The implementation details of CQ also suggest that CCP has adopted a worrying set of priorities -- that they're willing to sacrifice consistency with game fiction and usability in favor of improving virtual goods sales.

So what this leak has done is given us a chance, maybe, to respond before this interest has a chance to develop into CCP's intended course of action and become an actual plan to implement those intentions. I have a hard time thinking poorly of the source of the leak for giving us this opportunity and intend to capitalize on it any way I can.

I don't pretend to know with any certainty about where they are on the "interest" to "plan" continuum but I do know one thing:

They could have defused much of the controversy quite quickly and easily by announcing that they still have no intention at all of pursuing non-vanity MT.

Instead their initial response was to ignore the newsletter and the non-vanity items (CCP Pann's post under general discussion).

Then Zulu posted a dev blog that again failed to address the primary concern about MT, but instead talked about NEX pricing and talked generally about what Fearless is supposed to be.

Then he finally said that there are "no plans" for "gold ammo" but wants to discuss how to "evolve" their MT strategy with the CSM. This gets to our primary concern at least and offers a ray of hope, but seems to leave a lot of wiggle room and doesn't do much to dispel my concern that CCP wants very badly to implement non-vanity virtual goods and is just looking for a way to do it that allows them to keep the bittervets around as long as possible.

And no, I probably won't apologize if my primary concerns are addressed, because CCP could have easily set me at ease with competent and honest PR if indeed my concerns are ill-founded. I will, however, thank CCP for doing the right thing, if belatedly.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:08:00 - [1159]
 

Originally by: Elina Tan
So, nothing left for me than to just sit back a week and wait what word returns from Iceland. It's going to be an interesting set of meetings, at least, of that I'm sure. :)


CSM PR STUNT

CCP will meet with CSM and CCP will claim that this was a very beneficial meeting. CCP will talk about how better informed they are about the players position thanks to csm and how that information that they got from this csm meeting lead them to change "x" about their plans.

Will they acknowledge this forum outrage had anything to do with it? CCP will just say that was only part of it but meeting with CSM was also important - somehow.

The fact that they will meet with CSM and not hear a single thing from csm that they have not already heard in these forums will not be publicized at all.

OK CSM must be made into a white knight so it doesn't appear to be some publicity tool. This is a great opportunity to show how ccp listens to players via the csm.

The only problem is they canít claim what a success the CSM meeting was until they actually have the meeting. So we need to wait until after this meeting then we will hear what they decided to do in light of the forum outrage. But the actual meeting wonít change a thing.

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:19:00 - [1160]
 

Originally by: M4sterm1nd
Jezus.... just watched that Pay2Win presentation. I really wouldn't have expected this, but I now support P2W in Eve.

The theoretical basis is sound, and as one of the players that is looking forward to beating "the fat banker with the advantage-giving wheels" I say kudos to CCP for taking such a daring step for the sake of their company.


you just donīt understand..... and sad thing is you probably never will



Rusty Rush
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:36:00 - [1161]
 


Marius Rousseau
Posted - 2011.06.27 20:52:00 - [1162]
 

Given the recent events I think it's time that we had a written constitution, a binding social contract between the developers and the players. Eve is a virtual world and CCP like it or not is the defacto government. As citizens of eve we need a constitution so that we can hold CCP to account and ensure that our virtual world develops and progresses in manner that meets everyone's needs including the needs of the developer (read government) to earn more money or raise a little extra cash provided that it doesnt come at the expense of game balance. What we need is security and safe knowledge that the game that we all know and love is worth investing in both finacially and morally. That we can make bets on the future and know in advance what significant changes are planned and approved by the majority of the player base as a whole.

I've mentioned before there are some things yet to be developed that I would happily splash out a little cash for every now and again, so I'm not adverse to spending more money, but I am adverse to pay to win or pay to change the balance of power or pay to unlock features that we used to get for free etc.

Darth Helmat
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:39:00 - [1163]
 

Originally by: Marius Rousseau
Given the recent events I think it's time that we had a written constitution, a binding social contract between the developers and the players. Eve is a virtual world and CCP like it or not is the defacto government. As citizens of eve we need a constitution so that we can hold CCP to account and ensure that our virtual world develops and progresses in manner that meets everyone's needs including the needs of the developer (read government) to earn more money or raise a little extra cash provided that it doesnt come at the expense of game balance. What we need is security and safe knowledge that the game that we all know and love is worth investing in both finacially and morally. That we can make bets on the future and know in advance what significant changes are planned and approved by the majority of the player base as a whole.

I've mentioned before there are some things yet to be developed that I would happily splash out a little cash for every now and again, so I'm not adverse to spending more money, but I am adverse to pay to win or pay to change the balance of power or pay to unlock features that we used to get for free etc.


Not spending my subscription dollars on a game I can't play would be a start.

Not spending development effort on features no one wants

Not introducing methods of cheating by paying cash

Focussing on gameplay, fixing stuff, improving and enriching content, before new features.

Angst IronShard
Minmatar
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:51:00 - [1164]
 

Your past lacks of transparency and communication did too much wrong feelings at me actually to still enjoy playing the game. You looked for it; one week for trying to be honest throught this blog. There was no flies on me.
Maybe I'll come back after christmas depending how the game will be heading to.
o7

Calvin Sheng
Posted - 2011.06.27 21:56:00 - [1165]
 

I'm relatively new here, so I don't fully understand the need for all this vitriol. It seems there is a long history of politics involved, and quite frankly, I don't know enough about it to comment. However, I did want to weigh in on the idea of creating a new currency. The basic idea looks simple: CCP wants more money, which they plan to earn by selling a lot more PLEXes. Two thoughts:

1. Currently with PLEX, we have defined the value of 30 days of game time. Why not attach a value to remaps (perhaps 2 per PLEX)? This will give people a very good reason to buy a PLEX, which translates into dollars for CCP. Further, people with a lot of real money will benefit the overall economy by motivating people with a lot of game time to contribute even more to the economy. This idea can be expanded upon with some creative thought.

2. Instead of vanity items for Aurum, why not allow players to manufacture and sell (on the marker for ISK) their own clothing using combinations of materials? "Blueprints" can require materials ranging in cost from very cheap to extremely expensive. The people who want the very expensive things can buy a PLEX for the cash or benefit the overall economy through work.

I work with finances every day in RL, and it seems to me that everyone (CCP and users) has spent a great deal of time building upon the connection between ISK and real money. The result so far seems to be a very solid player-driven economy, which no other game can compare to. If CCP wants to make more money (and they should!), the best option seems to be giving people more and better reasons to buy a PLEX. Having too many currency systems is bad overall economic policy, plain and simple, and doesn't do justice to the time everyone has spent on the current economy.

No matter what happens, though, the basic game itself is very fun to play. I encourage people to discuss things calmly and not do things that hurt other fellow players.

DNSBlacks Arazu
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:02:00 - [1166]
 

How is having the CSM, a body of people that CCP has never given a serious moment of time to, going to solve anything. Trying to convince a group of individuals to calm the masses without doing anything of significance is a waste of time and money. How many ideas has the CSM put to CCP that were given any serious thought to? I would be surprised if they implemented any idea other than T2 salvagers.


Chrysanthemum Korik
Monocles Of Death
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:23:00 - [1167]
 

Originally by: Enkill Eridos
Okay wow..after an appropriate response you losers are still trying cling onto the mob mentality...


The response did not say that CCP will only sell vanity items in the store. Without that one specific piece of info, the response was totally inadequate. And as the leaked email makes clear the only thing they will listen to is people quitting. If we don't quit, they'll do what they want.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:27:00 - [1168]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 27/06/2011 22:27:28
So essentially, the answer to:
"Are you moving beyond pay-for-vanity-items?"
is still:
"We don't want to repeat the promise we made before! We don't even want to MENTION the question so many players have asked!"

It would have been so easy... Just a simple 'No' would have sufficed. Instead, you try to buy time by calling in the CSM, then saying that you'll not talk any more...

My trust in what you say? Gone!

Katana Seiko
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.27 22:53:00 - [1169]
 

Why did you have to introduce a second currency at all? We have the ISK for everything inside the game so far. What you are doing with the AUR is - to put it plainly - bull****.

So 1 Plex is about 400 million ISK
It is 3500 AUR for one PLEX.
That means we got 1 AUR equal to about 114285 ISK.
So why don't you just cut the crap and call the Women's 'Sterling' Dress Blouse (Dust) by it's price?
It costs 3200 AUR. That's 365,712k ISK.

We are the players. We are the ones making sure you have a job. So stop giving us discrimination and double standard bull****.
K Thx Bye.

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:10:00 - [1170]
 

gets looks at books, ah, ok, i see the issue now, you need about 9 million dollars by October and another 18m to get dust and wod complete.

CCP is breaking the game to survive basically



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