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blankseplocked Explain to me how the NEX store is different than PLEX?
 
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Sirinda
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:26:00 - [31]
 

Basically:

$ = PLEX
\\
ship/mod/whatever
//
Mining = refining = building



Now, with the NeX store, the fear is that sooner or later, this makeshift graph will look like this:

$ = PLEX = ship/mod/whatever

Therefore bypassing bypassing the market and any occupations that actually produce stuff from ingame activities, therefore turning the game into a P2W s**tbox.

I hope I've managed to answer your question.

Twisted Xistance
The Grief Wave
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:27:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Twisted Xistance on 25/06/2011 22:29:07
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
> Eve has always been a game based on skill, superior planning, economic strategy ect, the idea of bringing micro transactions threatens to destroy all of this and replace it with, who spends the most wins.

Oh really? Can you explain?

Take dark orbit for example: picture yourself in a fleet battle, 20 a side except one side has X5 ammo........ whos going to win......

Well there's SP as well .. good luck winning a battle with 50k SP!




Take into account that pay for ships will almost definately have very little sp requirements in comparison to the higher teir ships we pilot now, not to mention that if someone can afford to splash out on the new currency then they will more than likely be able to afford to splash out on a new toon to via the character bazaar.

Its pretty much common knowledge that its NOT just going to be vanity items at all, its a blatent attempt to lull the player base into accepting micro transactions as the norm while continueing to charge a subscription fee

Kahza Kado
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:33:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:19:34
Originally by: Whitehound
The PLEX is accepted.

Oh really? I hate it, I hope they will be gone one day.
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
The problem is not PLEX vs AUR, the problem lies when AUR is used to cut corners like buying Skill Points. Next thing you know, you have 1-day-old alts flying Titans.

Pff you can do that already. What's the difference?


If your refering to being able to purchase characters on the bazaar then your dead wrong. Someone had to take the time to to train that character. You cannot buy SKILL POINTS with PLEX. Show me a one day old character up for sale that has the skills to fly a dread let alone a BS.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:35:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:38:34
Originally by: Kahza Kado
If your refering to being able to purchase characters on the bazaar then your dead wrong. Someone had to take the time to to train that character. You cannot buy SKILL POINTS with PLEX. Show me a one day old character up for sale that has the skills to fly a dread let alone a BS.

You're nitpicking. You know what I mean.
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Well there's SP as well .. good luck winning a battle with 50k SP!
.. not to mention that if someone can afford to splash out on the new currency then they will more than likely be able to afford to splash out on a new toon to via the character bazaar.

Its pretty much common knowledge that it's NOT just going to be vanity items at all, its a blatent attempt to lull the player base into accepting micro transactions as the norm while continuing to charge a subscription fee

Yes funny that you mention it .. `splash out on a new toon to via the character bazaar`.

Well weŽll see where it all goes to .. EVE seems to become a slightly different game from what we knew .. personally I donŽt mind some changes but I hope they wonŽt take it too far ..

Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:37:00 - [35]
 

What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.

Kahza Kado
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:37:00 - [36]
 

No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!

Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:38:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Kahza Kado
If your refering to being able to purchase characters on the bazaar then your dead wrong. Someone had to take the time to to train that character. You cannot buy SKILL POINTS with PLEX. Show me a one day old character up for sale that has the skills to fly a dread let alone a BS.

You're nitpicking. You know what I mean.


No, I doubt you can see the difference, and that is disturbing.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:42:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:42:45
Originally by: Kahza Kado
No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!

Originally by: Birdy Cephon
No, I doubt you can see the difference, and that is disturbing.

Ok *sigh* I was not expressing myself accurately.

Of course I meant: you can buy a high SP character on the bazaar.
For instance Estel Arador is for sale now.

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:42:00 - [39]
 

Current System:

If you buy uber elite modules and ships in game, even if you use Isk from PLEX sales, at some point, a PLAYER had to grind out that Isk you are spending, and PLAYER had to hunt down and kill that officer for that drop.

AUR system:

Stuff appears out of thin air in exchange for RL cash, no PLAYER EFFORT involved ANYWHERE.


Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:43:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Malachor Jankor
But PLEX already exists. As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?


The major difference between ships bought with ISK-from-PLEX versus ships bought with Aurum is that the ISK-bought ship was manufactured by another player, who uses that ISK to pay the people who mined the ore, manufactured subsystems, salvaged sleeper wrecks, researched blueprints, etc. Thus ISK-from-PLEX drives the EVE economy and gives manufacturers and industrialists the demand for their services.

Ships bought with Aurum just magically appear in the game. Noone manufactured them. Noone was involved in gathering resources, noone's wallet is going to become fatter when a thousand Aurum-bought ships get destroyed in a major battle.

The NeX could have been handled differently, with the store offering BPCs for example, to keep the industrialists and manufacturers involved in the game. The route that CCP appears to have decided on is to cater to convenience. Player deposits money in CCP's bank account, new ship appears in their hangar.

Pretty soon, there will be no need to buy minerals. Mission runners will just put in their $10/month to have unlimited ammunition dumped straight in the hold of their ship. Ammunition manufacturers will have no market, so they'll have to find some way of funding their game play.

Kahza Kado
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:45:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.


Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.

Malachor Jankor
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:46:00 - [42]
 

I didn't actually read the leaked internal memo that brought all this on.

Was there actually a suggestion that they might sell skill points on the NEX market too? Is there any proof that they will be selling anything other than grossly over priced vanity items?

And just out of curiosity if you buy one of those ridiculous monocles for $80 if you get podded do you lose the monocle too? I haven't been able to figure that out yet.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:47:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Of course I meant: you can buy a high SP character on the bazaar.
For instance Estel Arador is for sale now.



You can only buy high SP characters when there are high SP characters for sale. You get whatever SP allocation those characters were trained with. No doubt we will see a "SP refund for Aurum" process sometime soon, along with standings-for-Aurum as detailed in the "Greed is Good" newsletter.

Anne Arqui
Minmatar
Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:49:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
No doubt we will see a "SP refund for Aurum" process sometime soon, along with standings-for-Aurum as detailed in the "Greed is Good" newsletter.

I hope so. And a bloodline change!! Cool

Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:51:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 25/06/2011 22:51:51
And according to CCP, they're gonna just "tough it out", no matter how much players protest.
That's their true definition of "Fearless".

Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:51:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.


Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.

OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?

Kahza Kado
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:52:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:42:45
Originally by: Kahza Kado
No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!

Originally by: Birdy Cephon
No, I doubt you can see the difference, and that is disturbing.

Ok *sigh* I was not expressing myself accurately.

Of course I meant: you can buy a high SP character on the bazaar.
For instance Estel Arador is for sale now.



Thanks for re-clarifying that.. But it is still way different than being able to buy max skill points day one of character creation and stepping into a titan or any other ship you might want.
And that is the issue.. CCP, while saying it isn't policy, they still got caught with their pants down discussing the possibility of introducing just such things as this. The leaked newsletter is proof of that. Then not answering a direct question about plans to introduce "pay to win" items (such as skill points, standings, special ships and items that are not just for vanity)and pretty much ignoring the CSM, has only fanned the flames of this literal bonfire.

Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:53:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 25/06/2011 22:53:50
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.


Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.

OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?

They did say at one point they will have a function where you could trade in some items plus some AUR to get better items, namely the Scorpion. Where a regular Scorpion + AUR = Reskinned Scorpion.

Eian
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:54:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Zelphinine
Edited by: Zelphinine on 25/06/2011 21:54:34
Because a PLEX is a player-to-player transaction.

MT is a player-to-CCP transaction.

Furthermore MT is just one facet of the anger being displayed.


PLEX is player-to-CCP transaction. Then they player can choose to have a player-to-player transaction with said PLEX.

Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:55:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 25/06/2011 22:53:50
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.


Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.

OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?

They did say at one point they will have a function where you could trade in some items plus some AUR to get better items, namely the Scorpion. Where a regular Scorpion + AUR = Reskinned Scorpion.


So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?

Kahza Kado
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:59:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.


Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.

OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?


Now your just doing the same thing as the LP stores are doing now.. " hand in this and this and this and you can have this BPC" Granted I haven't seen any of them handing out T2 stuff but still, it takes some effort on the players part to acquire the stuff to hand in. When you introduce that then your still providing a way to instantly give "new character A" who probably has no skills to use them (until he buys the sp from the NEX if CCP does do this) that "Vet player B" has worked his a$$ off to get. That's still an unfair advantage.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:00:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Tla Atij
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?
Yes. It breaks the supply balancing mechanics of invented BPCs.

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:00:00 - [53]
 

PLEX don't cost sixty bux. LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing


YARRRR!!YARRRR!!


Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:03:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.


Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.

OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?


Now your just doing the same thing as the LP stores are doing now.. " hand in this and this and this and you can have this BPC" Granted I haven't seen any of them handing out T2 stuff but still, it takes some effort on the players part to acquire the stuff to hand in. When you introduce that then your still providing a way to instantly give "new character A" who probably has no skills to use them (until he buys the sp from the NEX if CCP does do this) that "Vet player B" has worked his a$$ off to get. That's still an unfair advantage.

That's under the assumption that NeX ships/mods will be completely unrestricted, skill wise, which I don't think will be the case.

Also, isn't the point of selling PLEX to remove the ISK grind for people who can afford it? In the same manner, wouldn't the point of selling NeX BPCs (like in LP stores) be to remove the LP grind for people who can afford it?

Tla Atij
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:07:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tla Atij
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?
Yes. It breaks the supply balancing mechanics of invented BPCs.

Right, there would be less invention material going to actual inventors, since some would go to the NeX instead. I get it. The question now is, if the NeX prices are high enough, would the amount of diverted invention material really impact the current inventors?

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:11:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:08:10
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?

Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?

The only difference is that AUR buys directly from CCP ("out of thin air") and doesn't involve the EVE economy.

PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.


if i buy 20000 plex from CCP the market price will crash.
if i buy a ship i have a new ship. i can proceed to kill other players and when i lose said ship its ok im a rich guy IRL so i can buy a new one. oh and my ship is better since it can't be made in game ;)

Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:12:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Herping yourDerp
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:08:10
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?

Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?

The only difference is that AUR buys directly from CCP ("out of thin air") and doesn't involve the EVE economy.

PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.


if i buy 20000 plex from CCP the market price will crash.
if i buy a ship i have a new ship. i can proceed to kill other players and when i lose said ship its ok im a rich guy IRL so i can buy a new one. oh and my ship is better since it can't be made in game ;)

Can I have a few PLEX? :)

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:15:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Tla Atij
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?


Removing the waiting time and providing an unlimited supply both deleteriously impact upon the player-driven economy. The fact that invention requires scarce resources means that there is not an unlimited supply of T2 products. People have to set up and maintain POSes to run the invention labs. They have to keep market orders active for all the consumables. Someone has to collect the consumables such as POS fuel, datacores and decryptors. Someone has to spend the time researching and copying blueprints to feed into the invention process.

Thus the outcome of the invention process is player driven. If no player does it, there is no T2 product. Or more to the point, when you buy a T2 product, you are funding the industries of many players.

When you buy a NeX product, you are not participating in the player-driven economy. Your input is lost, and the player driven economy suffers. Imagine if you and your friends are playing a game of scrabble: if you pull "Q" out of the tile bag, that means everyone else is playing without the Q, and more significantly you are now required to find a "U" - this is part of the challenge of Scrabble. What happens if the game is changed so that you can buy a "U" at any time, for $0.50? Is that still Scrabble? No it's not. It's a board game involving spelling words using tiles, but the restrictions on the tiles mean that the game of Scrabble is actually a challenge and therefore interesting to play.

Imagine what would happen to poker tournaments if you were allowed to buy an Ace at any time?

Imagine being a null sec alliance trying to drive out the previous occupants of a system, but you can't lay siege to their station because they just keep buying more ships from the NeX. What point would there be to military tactics, intel, subterfuge, shock and awe … when everything that you've blown up gets replaced instantly with no opportunity for you to interrupt the supply chain?

Where is the fun in that?

Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:19:00 - [59]
 

But lets say you have to trade in a T2 blueprint + data cores + AUR to get a T3? Would that work?

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:19:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Tla Atij
The question now is, if the NeX prices are high enough, would the amount of diverted invention material really impact the current inventors?


The only way that ships bought through NeX are not going to impact the economy is if they just sit in hangars, owned by people who just want to collect shiny things.

As soon as someone undocks in a NeX-bought ship, they're going to be a target to pirates.


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