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blankseplocked Finding it hard to understand why people are upset over aur for items
 
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Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:16:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 17:17:33
Originally by: Ola Isu

The isk came from mission, rat, sanctum bounty bots.




Otherwise known as "Gameplay".

Quote:
Not exactly true. I give you: Datacores.
Given you have to have a certain standing to start using the R&D agents. But it's a one time deal, once you have it, you have it. After you have started your R&D agent it will produce datacores with 0 work from your end. All that is needed is time.
Datacores haven't messed up the game as far as I know.

Also SP is given us through time as well. I'd say that is a pretty significant game element.

So currently we have two ways of getting stuff:
* Through gameplay
* Through time (datacores, SP)


Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP.

Quote:
And if people are concerned about isk faucets, I think they should be a lot more concerned about the widespread macroing than a few overpriced NeX items. Those macro bots is an isk faucent of a whole other dimension.


Aurum is not an ISK faucet, Aurum is an item faucet.

Rylie Gayle
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:19:00 - [62]
 

What it all boils down to is this is EVE, a game made by CCP. They need to make money to continue as a corporation. Yes we are paying for games such as DUST and WoD aswell, but EVE CANNOT last forever nothing can... DUST is going to be an addition to the EVE world as well as another game entirely. They have to make sacrifices to ensure the future viability to the eve world and the CCP corporation. We have to make sacrifices as well, they may not make all the right moves in our eyes but its not our game, we just pay to play their game.

Symoen
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:20:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: xestria


You've been able to do this for years, try this

Buy some plex with cash, sell plex for isk.
Buy a Nidhoggur BPO from a NPC seller for a billion isk.
Repeat.





That ISK came from somewhere. Where did it come from?

Note: Not "Where did YOU get it from?" The question is, "Where did it come from?" Or, alternatively, where did it originate?


The ability to convert plex to isk and then isk to nidhoggur BPOs from an NPC is ultimately constrained by the fact that every time you do that, ISK is destroyed. Do it enough times and you would run out of ISK until players introduced more to the economy through in-game activities.

This is not the case with Aurum.




This above all is the concern all of us know will come to pass if we allow CCP to continue down this road.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:22:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Rylie Gayle
What it all boils down to is this is EVE, a game made by CCP. They need to make money to continue as a corporation. Yes we are paying for games such as DUST and WoD aswell, but EVE CANNOT last forever nothing can... DUST is going to be an addition to the EVE world as well as another game entirely. They have to make sacrifices to ensure the future viability to the eve world and the CCP corporation. We have to make sacrifices as well, they may not make all the right moves in our eyes but its not our game, we just pay to play their game.


I agree except on the sacrifices as what sacrifices and why are important I and probably others think they are/will make the wrong ones but it is their decision to make just as it ours to tell them they are wrong and/or leave.


Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:26:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Llambda

Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP.


So let's say that you need to pay 50 mil isk and have a certain standing to be able to access the NeX the first time, then the NeX would be gameplay, right?

Also you conviniently seems to have missed that SP also is given to you over time, with no initial investment what so ever.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:29:00 - [66]
 

How about the potential to charge you "convenience fees".


You want more fitting slots? Pay us, don't worry about the fact that you already pay for multiple accounts for a full service client. No, let's charge you for making things convenient for you while you already pay for the game.


Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:31:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 17:33:55
Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Llambda

Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP.


So let's say that you need to pay 50 mil isk and have a certain standing to be able to access the NeX the first time, then the NeX would be gameplay, right?


What part of, "It is generated and is consumed solely within the game did you fail to grasp? Adding standing to NeX would not change the fact that the items generated from it are done so in a transaction that takes place outside of the context of the game. It is a cash transaction with plex, and then aurum, serving as proxies.

Quote:
Also you conviniently seems to have missed that SP also is given to you over time, with no initial investment what so ever.


SP are generated solely within the game. It's not the amount of "work" or "resources" or "time" that is relevant here, it is their point of origin that counts. Incidentally, I also can't buy anything with my SPs. At BEST I can trade them for ISK....

...and where did that ISK come from, again?

From gameplay.

Nth Ares
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:32:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Llambda

Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP.


So let's say that you need to pay 50 mil isk and have a certain standing to be able to access the NeX the first time, then the NeX would be gameplay, right?

Also you conviniently seems to have missed that SP also is given to you over time, with no initial investment what so ever.


The gameplay "rule" isn't black and white, it's a nuanced concept. NEX would be gameplay if AUR were earned by taking actions in game, or only bought with ISK generated from in-game activities. Some would include PLEX trade as part of that, some would not. There isn't a Bible on the subject.

SP accrues only while you are paid up with CCP. I would say SP gain is a core feature of your subscription, and that your CHOICE of skills, your growth strategy, is the gameplay. Also many skill books do cost ISK.

Adrauss 9
Caldari
Neuromancer Inc
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:34:00 - [69]
 

Everything about this game , the items , the economy , sp and everything all comes from RL . You pay your monthly fee . Even if you plex all your accounts , someone is paying your monthly fee for you.

Personally i couldn't give a monkey about Nex . if people wish to spend money on Vanity items , then so be it . If people want to spend money on PLEX , then so be it .

What i would like to see is more stern responce from CCP , anyone who has played ww2online will know what DOC can be like , we need DOC to put some of you lot straight in this game. lol

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:38:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Llambda

Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP.


So let's say that you need to pay 50 mil isk and have a certain standing to be able to access the NeX the first time, then the NeX would be gameplay, right?


What part of, "It is generated and is consumed solely within the game did you fail to grasp? Adding standing to NeX would not change the fact that the items generated from it are done so in a transaction that takes place outside of the context of the game. It is a cash transaction with plex, and then aurum, serving as proxies.

Quote:
Also you conviniently seems to have missed that SP also is given to you over time, with no initial investment what so ever.


SP are generated solely within the game. It's not the amount of "work" or "resources" or "time" that is relevant here, it is their point of origin that counts.


NeX items are also produced solely within the game! The only difference being that instead of time as input there is RL money as input. How is this any different? It's still within game parameters. Have you ever heard of the notion "Time is Money"? here we literally exchange time for money.

Having said that I'm the first person to agree that you shouldn't be able to for example buy SP for money, that would be horrible. But I think that some items can be bought for money without destroying the game, if handled correctly. Of course we don't know if CCP will "stay behind the line" and handle this stuff correctly, but that's not for me to speculate about.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:40:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II

NeX items are also produced solely within the game!


No, NeX items are spawned out of nothing in a direct exchange for cash. I realize it's a subtle nuance, but it is an extremely important one.

MarlboroMenthals
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:43:00 - [72]
 

i get the differece between plex isk and thin air thing but wouldnt it take tons and tons of real money to aurum transactions to even make a dent in the eve economy?

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:44:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: Daedalus II

NeX items are also produced solely within the game!


No, NeX items are spawned out of nothing in a direct exchange for cash. I realize it's a subtle nuance, but it is an extremely important one.

And SP don't spawn out of nothing in exchange for cash either right?

Gumpy Nighthawk
Amarr
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:44:00 - [74]
 

The moment i need to pay AUR to press f1-f7 is the moment i quit eve, other than that i don't really care Cool

xestria
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:46:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: xestria on 25/06/2011 17:47:58
Originally by: Llambda

It's not even really a concern of runaway supply, it's the simple fact that the normal ingame mechanics are being completely bypassed.

That aside, however, it would be foolish to believe the prices will remain where they are. They're clearly not at an optimal point on the price-elasticity curve. They would quite surely make a lot more money by bringing the price down, and I'm quite certain that will happen before too long.

I suspect that the present prices reflect a desperate need on CCP's part to burn up plexes that they don't have the cash to back.


Mechanics aren't set in stone. That's not reason in itself to be opposed to the NEX store.

Your arguments have been boiled away to nothing I'm afraid. You're now left opposing the NEX store based on something that you think will happen in the future - i.e. lowering AUR prices. Have you considered that CCP has set NEX prices based on a profit curve AND parameters based on ingame economic impacts? The high prices probably don't hit the profit maximisation point on the curve and so that suggests they've taken other factors in to account.

Similarly, PLEX as it stands is unsustainable - it's being used for speculation and there is too much of it in the system, with not enough people using it to pay for gametime.









Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:54:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Rylie Gayle
Read the EULA, nothing in this game belongs to you.


There is one thing that CCP doesn't own: the time we all put into the game.

Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:55:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: Daedalus II

NeX items are also produced solely within the game!


No, NeX items are spawned out of nothing in a direct exchange for cash. I realize it's a subtle nuance, but it is an extremely important one.

And SP don't spawn out of nothing in exchange for cash either right?


SP is a game mechanic. NeX for vanity sits outside of game mechanics so is fine. NeX for gameplay items subverts game mechanics and as such devalues it.

Leon Razor
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:59:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
NeX items are also produced solely within the game! The only difference being that instead of time as input there is RL money as input. How is this any different? It's still within game parameters. Have you ever heard of the notion "Time is Money"? here we literally exchange time for money.

Having said that I'm the first person to agree that you shouldn't be able to for example buy SP for money, that would be horrible. But I think that some items can be bought for money without destroying the game, if handled correctly. Of course we don't know if CCP will "stay behind the line" and handle this stuff correctly, but that's not for me to speculate about.


Slightly extreme example to why time for money conversion breaks EVE: My big alliance just lost 10 capitals in a fleet, normally we would need time and ISK to reinforce and defend our space with more capitals, but after the fight we just buy 20 more dreads for AUR and crush the invading force.

xestria
Posted - 2011.06.25 18:20:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Leon Razor


Slightly extreme example to why time for money conversion breaks EVE: My big alliance just lost 10 capitals in a fleet, normally we would need time and ISK to reinforce and defend our space with more capitals, but after the fight we just buy 20 more dreads for AUR and crush the invading force.


Your example is as solid as sponge:

1. You can buy some PLEX and replace your dreadnoughts(?) anyway. No need for the NEX store.
2. It will cost you about 400 euros to do that. How often can you afford to lose 10 dreadnoughts?
3. You'll find blueprints, not ships in the NEX store.
4. You won't be able to buy common items like T1 blueprints in the NEX store.



Leon Razor
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.25 18:40:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Leon Razor


Slightly extreme example to why time for money conversion breaks EVE: My big alliance just lost 10 capitals in a fleet, normally we would need time and ISK to reinforce and defend our space with more capitals, but after the fight we just buy 20 more dreads for AUR and crush the invading force.


Your example is as solid as sponge:

1. You can buy some PLEX and replace your dreadnoughts(?) anyway. No need for the NEX store.
2. It will cost you about 400 euros to do that. How often can you afford to lose 10 dreadnoughts?
3. You'll find blueprints, not ships in the NEX store.
4. You won't be able to buy common items like T1 blueprints in the NEX store.




Fair enough points if they are true, but I think the real issue keeps getting lost: we don't know for sure what will end up in the NeX store and how exactly it will effect game play yet. Recent events have everyone in a speculation frenzy and CCP hasn't answered the "big yellow question" one way or the other. My example may not be that great, but I am absolutely against MT beyond vanity items as I believe it destroys a fundamental part of EVE.

I think I'm going to take a step back from all the hype until we hear something more from CCP. They should get at least one chance to respond to all of this on a day where everyone is actually at the office.


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