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blankseplocked Finding it hard to understand why people are upset over aur for items
 
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Starkiller Adams
Gallente
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:25:00 - [31]
 

Reasons i am concern/upset
1) It wont stop at vanity items
2) Anomaly Nerf a while back
3) CCP refusing to fix parts of the game that NEED to be address(low sec,faction warfare)
4) CCP ignoring the player base that go it where it is and made eve what it is
5) Being talked down to by CCP Zulu's response
6) the arrogance of himlar's email

Not reasons im upset

1)Incarna i dont mind walking in station i kinda like it actually just wish i had somewhere to go

I am/was an eve fan boy i wont say im rage quitting right now. but my second account will not be re subbed until i feel the direction the game is something that i want to be a part of. I loved this game because it was insanely hard and such a niche group. And if u cant really get why people are upset i have this to tell you. People have invested years into this gotten close to the people they play with so when something that they perceive will make all there work invalid or bring to an end the thing that made u part of a community people will fight for it.

Malice Redeemer
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:25:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Rylie Gayle
Whats the difference between an officer drop in 0.0 worth 5b (created out of thin air) and an Aurum item being bought thats worth 5b? They both inject 5b worth of 'product' into the market with no initial cost. Also it was noted from the alliance tournaments that ships on the aurum market will be in the form of BPCs preferably. Which will probably require the consumption of a t1 item. Again how is that diff than a drop.




the game a.k.a. the players control WHO gets the drop. With MT CCP gives the drops to those who spend the most money.

xestria
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:26:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.

Ammzi
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:27:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Rylie Gayle
honestly wouldn't mind a new server specifically for this, even if they have to cut back from TQ.


Just THIS shows how OP is seriously mentally ........

Nartol Trild
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:29:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



But your still ruining the eve economy.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:32:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/06/2011 16:38:14
Originally by: Nartol Trild
Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



But your still ruining the eve economy.

How is a blueprint copy ruining the economy?

As long as the NeX shop works like any other faction shop I don't see how there is a problem. New items are delivered as BPCs. Modified items use one or more trade in items. Stuff that aren't produced normally is output directly (implants, clothes).

Nartol Trild
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:35:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Nartol Trild
Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



But your still ruining the eve economy.

How is a blueprint copy ruining the economy?


Because you bypass the in game mechanism to acquire the blueprints. This isnt rocket science.

Master Gotama
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:36:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Llambda
It's baffling that so many people are so entirely ignorant to how the present money supply and plex system works.


That is exactly the type of customer that CCP wants! They are encouraging the e-tards to flock to this game with this NEX shop. Its actually one of the secondary drawbacks to AUR; we get more 12 year-olds that want to play barbie online. Rolling Eyes

xestria
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:38:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Nartol Trild
Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



But your still ruining the eve economy.


Nope. As you know, blueprints are seeded by NPCs. It makes no difference to the economy whether rare or unique blueprints enter the game through the LP store, a NPC research station or the NEX store.



Rylie Gayle
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:39:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Malice Redeemer
Originally by: Rylie Gayle
Whats the difference between an officer drop in 0.0 worth 5b (created out of thin air) and an Aurum item being bought thats worth 5b? They both inject 5b worth of 'product' into the market with no initial cost. Also it was noted from the alliance tournaments that ships on the aurum market will be in the form of BPCs preferably. Which will probably require the consumption of a t1 item. Again how is that diff than a drop.




the game a.k.a. the players control WHO gets the drop. With MT CCP gives the drops to those who spend the most money.


Ok, think of it this way, you go out to 0.0 and you find an officer, or just a faction spawn. You get a drop with 2b. 2b worth of product was just spawned.

You go on the aurum market and spawn an item. 2b worth of product was just spawned.

First instance only required someone to kill a npc. Not all that hard, yes it requires permissions to be in certain spaces or sneakiness to get to the npc. But, not all that hard.

Second instance someone used RL cash to buy an item, giving CCP more revenue, and doing nothing more than something that equates to an officer spawn.

And as I said before do you really think THAT MANY people will be spending 1000's of RL $ to get stuff like that in eve? And even so really does it matter? EVE has been a sand box yea, but introducing RL money into it really just includes RL into the sandbox. Imagine someone flying a ishkone scorp bought with RL money getting taken down because a dramiel. I'd find that hilarious.

They have economic advisors, how well they do they're job is up in the air. But look at the RL economic systems get ****ed up all the time, and they are dealt with. People live with it, deal with it, and get over it. Its way to ****ing early to say this is going to ruin the economy.

And as for that internal FEARLESS document and the Hilmar email, so the **** what. I work for an energy company that I've seen plenty of internal documents I wish I hadn't because of talks of closing down this ending this contract, etc and stuff that would affect my job. But its just speculation and conversation and 10 years later I'm in the same location I was working on the same contract because the conversation ended in the way that favored it.

Don't get ****ed because you seen the inside of the corporate EVE world. It was none of your business to be there in the first place. As far as Hilmars email, like I said I work in a energy company. You know how much **** we get? And our high ups tell us all the time that we need to just stay the course and we get 'predictable responses' from out customers... why? Because its true.

Yea, its insulting, but guess what. None of your ****ing business.

Tony 2fingers
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:40:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Tony 2fingers on 25/06/2011 16:41:45
I think it is about the actual Idea itself, let me explain.
This is not some cheap Korean game that is not a Subscription based game its a monthly sub model. Now, Eve isn't the first to want a MT store, but, it has already pulled one item that would have had a Direct impact on the only true player driven economy, the Scorpion model. It wasn't a skin that was applied to a existing in game ship, it was a ship that was going to be introduced that by passed the whole economic model of the game.

The whole way the MT store was implemented shows that it was definitely being used to Milk the player base for as much Real World money as possible. It is a classic example of wanting your cake and eating it too. The whole ide of a MT store is a serious put off to most players, unfortunately, some people will buy and claim it doesnt affect anyone else so whats the big deal? Well it does affect everyone, becuase of the players, " I want it now", attitude, it has long term ripple affects.

Show me one example of a MT store that has not eventually added in game items that affet a players ability to perform better in game, whether it is just the ability to level faster , or have access to better weapons then usually possible for most of the player base. With the exception of Wow( which only sells pets and mounts)most other MT stores have gon e down the route of player enhancement.

In the leaked internal document, it even shows the model for Dust and that it will have in game power items. It is not a far leap to say that would eventually be the over riding model for all of CCP's MT stores. You wouldnt have one model for one game that is part of a persitent universe and not have the same type for the other game of same Universe.

Currently, Star Trek Online has a MT store, that originally was only to hold so called Vanity items, well that lasted about 6 months, and then started to introduce Ships with better stats, Bridge Officers with special abilities only available through the MT store. This is what most people not in favor of a MT store are afraid of happening.

Eve is special in the world of MMO's. it is the only game to have actually listened to the player base since launch, and has grown becuase of the Dev/Player interaction. Eve could never have reached the Heights it has achieved if not for that close relationship.

To all the players that have been here over the years, this feels like a slap in the face and the beginning of the end for a project that was truly loved by everyone involved, whether they were a single player exploring the vastness of Eve, or the Power block player such as NAGA or B.O.B, or Eve University.

This is why people are upset over this MT store.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:40:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: xestria


Nope. As you know, blueprints are seeded by NPCs. It makes no difference to the economy whether rare or unique blueprints enter the game through the LP store, a NPC research station or the NEX store.




This.

Rylie Gayle
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:41:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Nartol Trild
Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



But your still ruining the eve economy.

Where'd you obtain your economic degree? The Greeks need you.

Nartol Trild
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:41:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:44:55
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Nartol Trild
Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



But your still ruining the eve economy.


Nope. As you know, blueprints are seeded by NPCs. It makes no difference to the economy whether rare or unique blueprints enter the game through the LP store, a NPC research station or the NEX store.





The man grinding missions in Curse is the same as the man mining veldspar. If you can buy either outside of the game mechanics, your ruining the economy.

You cannot spawn infinite blueprint copies without investing time in the game, if its on noble exchange you can spawn as many copys as you can invest real life money. Do you get it now?

Ola Isu
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:44:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Ola Isu on 25/06/2011 16:54:49
Quote:

People who benefit:
CCP: Gets money.
PLEX Buyer: Gets gametime.
PLEX Seller: Gets ISK which is used to buy a Machariel.
Machariel Seller: Gets ISK.


Here's who benefits:
CCP: Gets money.
PLEX User: Gets Machariel.




Old system--
PLEX Seller: Gets ISK to buy Mach.
CCP: Gets money.
RMT Buyer: Gets ISK to buy 4 Machs.
RMT Seller: Gets money.
PLEX Buyer: RMT Seller buys game time to bot.
Machariel Seller: Mission bot provides BPC LP reward. Miner Bot provides minerals for production.

RMT Buyer kills Plex Seller Mach with 4 Machs.

New system--
CCP: Gets money.
PLEX User: Buys "Uber" Machariel. Buys "Uber" skills and modules.
RMT Seller: Gets mad.
RMT Buyer: Gets mad.

RMT foment useful herd instinct.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:44:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 16:48:35
Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 16:45:51
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Nartol Trild
Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



But your still ruining the eve economy.


Nope. As you know, blueprints are seeded by NPCs. It makes no difference to the economy whether rare or unique blueprints enter the game through the LP store, a NPC research station or the NEX store.





Actually, it does. It's the currency that matters - not the distribution mechanism.

All other currencies presently have to be generated by some form of gameplay, primarily mission running and ratting.

No matter the means by which you, personally, acquire something in Eve at present, someone had to go through the in-game work to acquire it. It may not have been YOU who did the work - maybe you bought some GTCs, sold some plexes, and bought it off contracts - but SOMEBODY did the work. Somebody ran missions to farm LP to trade in for that Mach BPC.

By contrast, with Aur, you can convert cash directly to an item without any player having to do anything in game. This makes it an item faucet that is constrained NOT by player time and effort in-game, but solely by the amount of real cash people are willing to spend on the game.

This is fine for vanity items/internet space barbie. It is decidedly less fine for anything with function.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:47:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Tony 2fingers

Currently, Star Trek Online has a MT store, that originally was only to hold so called Vanity items, well that lasted about 6 months, and then started to introduce Ships with better stats, Bridge Officers with special abilities only available through the MT store. This is what most people not in favor of a MT store are afraid of happening.



Remember though that there is one important exception between this and EVE. In EVE these items can be resold for isk. Or bought directly by buying a PLEX with isk and use it. This means that anyone can have access to these things, even those that don't want to pay RL money for it.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:47:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



except that the NEX store can't sell BPCs or do trade ins in this iteration.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:52:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Llambda

All other currencies presently have to be generated by some form of gameplay, primarily mission running and ratting.

No matter the means by which you, personally, acquire something in Eve at present, someone had to go through the in-game work to acquire it. It may not have been YOU who did the work - maybe you bought some GTCs, sold some plexes, and bought it off contracts - but SOMEBODY did the work. Somebody ran missions to farm LP to trade in for that Mach BPC.

By contrast, with Aur, you can convert cash directly to an item without any player having to do anything in game. This makes it an item faucet that is constrained NOT by player time and effort in-game, but solely by the amount of real cash people are willing to spend on the game.

This is fine for vanity items/internet space barbie. It is decidedly less fine for anything with function.

This is all perfectly true.

But how can you be so sure EVE gameplay will be ruined just because a new way to aquire items emerges. SO FAR all ways to get something has been through gameplay. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY viable way to get something.

Let's play with the idea that we get a new "mineral X" that can only be aquired through buying it with RL money. Then say that mineral X is used when building certain ships. That way it's incorporated in an intuitive way into the game, without being strange or immersion breaking.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:55:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Discrodia

You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel.



No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.



except that the NEX store can't sell BPCs or do trade ins in this iteration.

And neither does it pop out instant magic Machariels.

xestria
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:57:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Nartol Trild

The man grinding missions in Curse is the same as the man mining veldspar. If you can buy either outside of the game mechanics, your ruining the economy.

You cannot spawn infinite blueprint copies without investing time in the game, if its on noble exchange you can spawn as many copys as you can invest real life money. Do you get it now?


You've been able to do this for years, try this

Buy some plex with cash, sell plex for isk.
Buy a Nidhoggur BPO from a NPC seller for a billion isk.
Repeat.




Agrikaan
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:58:00 - [52]
 

If you dont understand, fine, try not to read or think, just do what other tells you to think and do. And above all, don't argue against CCP, just pay the fees and STFU. Its their view on you anyway.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.25 16:58:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II


But how can you be so sure EVE gameplay will be ruined just because a new way to aquire items emerges.


Becuase Eve IS its economy. That IS the game. Something that bypasses the Eve economy entirely is essentially bypassing the game itself.

Quote:
SO FAR all ways to get something has been through gameplay. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY viable way to get something.


It is the mechanism around which the entire rest of the game revolves.

Quote:
Let's play with the idea that we get a new "mineral X" that can only be aquired through buying it with RL money. Then say that mineral X is used when building certain ships. That way it's incorporated in an intuitive way into the game, without being strange or immersion breaking.


That's... not an improvement. You're still directly introducing items to the game economy in exchange for cash instead of gameplay. All you have done is made it a lower-level item.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:02:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: xestria


You've been able to do this for years, try this

Buy some plex with cash, sell plex for isk.
Buy a Nidhoggur BPO from a NPC seller for a billion isk.
Repeat.





That ISK came from somewhere. Where did it come from?

Note: Not "Where did YOU get it from?" The question is, "Where did it come from?" Or, alternatively, where did it originate?

The ability to convert plex to isk and then isk to nidhoggur BPOs from an NPC is ultimately constrained by the fact that every time you do that, ISK is destroyed. Do it enough times and you would run out of ISK until players introduced more to the economy through in-game activities.

This is not the case with Aurum.


xestria
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:05:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Llambda

Actually, it does. It's the currency that matters - not the distribution mechanism.

All other currencies presently have to be generated by some form of gameplay, primarily mission running and ratting.

No matter the means by which you, personally, acquire something in Eve at present, someone had to go through the in-game work to acquire it. It may not have been YOU who did the work - maybe you bought some GTCs, sold some plexes, and bought it off contracts - but SOMEBODY did the work. Somebody ran missions to farm LP to trade in for that Mach BPC.

By contrast, with Aur, you can convert cash directly to an item without any player having to do anything in game. This makes it an item faucet that is constrained NOT by player time and effort in-game, but solely by the amount of real cash people are willing to spend on the game.

This is fine for vanity items/internet space barbie. It is decidedly less fine for anything with function.



You're right, it's a faucet, however compared to missions or other forms of gameplay it's a ridiculously insignificant faucet. But supply will be controlled by AUR prices of these items.

If a t-shirt costs $20, how much do you think a T3 battleship blueprint will cost? Seriously, it's going to be well over $1000. No need to be worried about runaway supply with those kind of prices.


Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:07:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/06/2011 17:09:05
Originally by: Llambda

Quote:
SO FAR all ways to get something has been through gameplay. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY viable way to get something.


It is the mechanism around which the entire rest of the game revolves.


Not exactly true. I give you: Datacores.
Given you have to have a certain standing to start using the R&D agents. But it's a one time deal, once you have it, you have it. After you have started your R&D agent it will produce datacores with 0 work from your end. All that is needed is time.
Datacores haven't messed up the game as far as I know.

Also SP is given us through time as well. I'd say that is a pretty significant game element.

So currently we have two ways of getting stuff:
* Through gameplay
* Through time (datacores, SP)

Why wouldn't it work to add a third way to get stuff:
* Through RL cash

I'm not saying I'm thinking this is a good OR bad idea, I'm just saying, lets be a bit open-minded before we start lagging out Jita like a three year old that doesn't get what he wants.

Ola Isu
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:08:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: xestria


You've been able to do this for years, try this

Buy some plex with cash, sell plex for isk.
Buy a Nidhoggur BPO from a NPC seller for a billion isk.
Repeat.





That ISK came from somewhere. Where did it come from?

Note: Not "Where did YOU get it from?" The question is, "Where did it come from?" Or, alternatively, where did it originate?

The ability to convert plex to isk and then isk to nidhoggur BPOs from an NPC is ultimately constrained by the fact that every time you do that, ISK is destroyed. Do it enough times and you would run out of ISK until players introduced more to the economy through in-game activities.

This is not the case with Aurum.



The isk came from mission, rat, sanctum bounty bots.

The ruin the economy meme is a useful tool that fails upon closest inspection.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:12:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: xestria
Originally by: Llambda

Actually, it does. It's the currency that matters - not the distribution mechanism.

All other currencies presently have to be generated by some form of gameplay, primarily mission running and ratting.

No matter the means by which you, personally, acquire something in Eve at present, someone had to go through the in-game work to acquire it. It may not have been YOU who did the work - maybe you bought some GTCs, sold some plexes, and bought it off contracts - but SOMEBODY did the work. Somebody ran missions to farm LP to trade in for that Mach BPC.

By contrast, with Aur, you can convert cash directly to an item without any player having to do anything in game. This makes it an item faucet that is constrained NOT by player time and effort in-game, but solely by the amount of real cash people are willing to spend on the game.

This is fine for vanity items/internet space barbie. It is decidedly less fine for anything with function.



You're right, it's a faucet, however compared to missions or other forms of gameplay it's a ridiculously insignificant faucet. But supply will be controlled by AUR prices of these items.

If a t-shirt costs $20, how much do you think a T3 battleship blueprint will cost? Seriously, it's going to be well over $1000. No need to be worried about runaway supply with those kind of prices.




It's not even really a concern of runaway supply, it's the simple fact that the normal ingame mechanics are being completely bypassed.

That aside, however, it would be foolish to believe the prices will remain where they are. They're clearly not at an optimal point on the price-elasticity curve. They would quite surely make a lot more money by bringing the price down, and I'm quite certain that will happen before too long.

I suspect that the present prices reflect a desperate need on CCP's part to burn up plexes that they don't have the cash to back.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:14:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: xestria

You're right, it's a faucet, however compared to missions or other forms of gameplay it's a ridiculously insignificant faucet. But supply will be controlled by AUR prices of these items.

If a t-shirt costs $20, how much do you think a T3 battleship blueprint will cost? Seriously, it's going to be well over $1000. No need to be worried about runaway supply with those kind of prices.


Agreed.

And if people are concerned about isk faucets, I think they should be a lot more concerned about the widespread macroing than a few overpriced NeX items. Those macro bots is an isk faucent of a whole other dimension.

Vasha Rin
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:15:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Vasha Rin on 25/06/2011 17:17:25
I am upset about Aurum for items (beyond vanity) because I think it will change the EVE economy in such a way that my primary fun activities in it will be diminished or destroyed (mining, planets, industry). Instead of spending my time each month working and planning, it will be more economical to just buy ISK, buy ships, etc., and do nothing but PvP. Even missions will be pointless, because they plan to sell standing for Aurum as well.

I am fraid that is the kind of game CCP wants to make - nothing but spaceship fighting, no player economy, no depth, no consequences. No immersion.

I un-subbed one account yesterday, I have 3 months left on the main - if something positive doesn't develop for people like me who care about the player-driven economy, I'll have to say goodbye. I really like this game, too, and have since 2006. THERE IS NO OTHER GAME LIKE EVE.

Things like this latest betrayal are making me feel old, because they give me the message that games are a stupid pastime for ignorant children. It's a sign that there is no goal in life worth pursuing, even the most trivial, because every interaction with life is another opportunity to be betrayed. Yeah that may sound like a whiny stretch, but I think that's where the logic goes if you follow it to the end.


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