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Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:21:00 - [1]
 

If I bought a plex using RL money, sold the plex and spent the ISK I made off the plex, how is that any different from me getting Aurum from the plex and spending it?

These +9 implants sound great and so does Aurum for remap, I mean really this is no different than buying insurance on your ship.

If you guys hated MT that much you should have complained about it when GTC were brought in

Peter Greed
Dirt-Nap Ship Yards
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:22:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
If I bought a plex using RL money, sold the plex and spent the ISK I made off the plex, how is that any different from me getting Aurum from the plex and spending it?

These +9 implants sound great and so does Aurum for remap, I mean really this is no different than buying insurance on your ship.

If you guys hated MT that much you should have complained about it when GTC were brought in


I can't be arsed to explain this to you....

I'll have my 4 year old brother log on and get you straightened out shortly.

Hang tight mate.

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:23:00 - [3]
 

its true, all of the content is accessible to everyone since ISK can indirectly get everything

and once ppl buy it for AUR and sell it on the ISK market, that link becomes a direct one

Balardo
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:25:00 - [4]
 

There is no difference between Aurum and PLEX.

The difference is between buying PLEX and NOT buying PLEX.

Jacque Cruix
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:25:00 - [5]
 

Some things should be rare; therefore crazy expensive.

cytex malrone
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:25:00 - [6]
 

not explaining this again but i willthrow you a bone

mt

read that

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:29:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Kalle Demos
If I bought a plex using RL money, sold the plex and spent the ISK I made off the plex, how is that any different from me getting Aurum from the plex and spending it?

These +9 implants sound great and so does Aurum for remap, I mean really this is no different than buying insurance on your ship.

If you guys hated MT that much you should have complained about it when GTC were brought in


I can't be arsed to explain this to you....

I'll have my 4 year old brother log on and get you straightened out shortly.

Hang tight mate.


reported for account sharing

Teebee
XERCORE
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:29:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Teebee on 25/06/2011 08:30:58
The fear is that Aurum will turn into SP buying so we need to start cancelling all of our alts at least for now then see what ccp has to say in the coming week.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1536495

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:30:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: cytex malrone
not explaining this again but i willthrow you a bone

mt

read that


your explanation over in that thread is warranted

however as long as things remain vanity only and could never be produced by player in the first place then none of the existing market is changed

its then becomes a ISK sink like skills or the LP store. Those areas have items coming from nothing.

But since PLEX doesnt create or destroy ISK i think it will just change the stimulation of the market is all

RAW23
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:32:00 - [10]
 


This is getting repeated a fair bit at the moment but there are, in fact, some key differences between PLEX and other forms of MT. Primarily, PLEX fulfils a role that could not be filled in a non-RMT way, precisely because its purpose is to compete with blackmarket RMT, on the one hand, and provide isk based options for paying for accounts, on the other. Neither of these elements could be provided without an RMT solution. The downside of people being able to buy stuff they haven't earned is an unfortunate consequence of having this other functionality. With regard to MT purchases the situation is very different. It provides no functionality or content that could not be provided through a non-MT method. In addition, it has been developed using the funding resources for the game as a whole. Time and effort spent on developing MT goods is time and effort that has not been spent developing core game content. Finally, CCP has proven to be remarkably insensitive to the idea of the player driven economy that has formed such a central part of eve and has shown a willingness to allow the MT system to introduce items into the game out of thin air and requiring no ingame effort or action. In addition, CCP seem to be displaying a willingness to remove current functionality from the game in order to sell it backfor MT as additional premium services.

Aedeal
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:32:00 - [11]
 

The difference is that if a person buys PLEX, then the ISK they spend goes directly into the EVE economy. There's no 'buy Bhaalgorn' button that doesn't involve a person finding a Bhaalgorn BPC, someone mining the minerals, someone making it, and someone putting it on the market. Supply is limited, the price fluctuates on supply and demand.

No *IF* CCP were to sell Bhaalgorns in the Aurum store, there'd be an infinite supply of them, with no money going into the EVE community and industry. This devalues the EVE economy, and makes warfare an utter joke, since someone could just buy 100 bhaalgorns (for PLEX *OR* ISK)... not good.

TLDR The essential difference is the 'magic creation' and unlimited supply of items which are limited in-game currently due to their being better (in some cases amazingly so) than regular items.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:34:00 - [12]
 

OK!

What if AUR was vanity ONLY items, like a pool table, shower, mobile lab, arcade etc which can ONLY be used and bought in stations and were purely there for vanity, would this be acceptable?

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Xercodo
your explanation over in that thread is warranted

however as long as things remain vanity only and could never be produced by player in the first place then none of the existing market is changed

Except, of course, that it's not going to remain vanity only and hence the rage.

Cyriel Longinus
Caldari
XERCORE
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:36:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Cyriel Longinus on 25/06/2011 08:36:40


GTCs and PLEX were introduced to us a as necessary evil to protect the integrity of the game from outside influence.
Now it's not the outside influences that are playing with the integrity.

Madjak Burton
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:37:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Xercodo
your explanation over in that thread is warranted

however as long as things remain vanity only and could never be produced by player in the first place then none of the existing market is changed

Except, of course, that it's not going to remain vanity only and hence the rage.


yes it will.

now get back to jita and shoot at the monument until your unsub'd runs out.

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:38:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Xercodo
your explanation over in that thread is warranted

however as long as things remain vanity only and could never be produced by player in the first place then none of the existing market is changed

Except, of course, that it's not going to remain vanity only and hence the rage.


but that hasn't be straightly confirmed or denied yet...

and again, if they "...could never be produced by player in the first place then none of the existing market is changed". As it relates to roles in the chain of production

however non-vanity things are still a bad thing and we dont want ppl buying a win ^^

Peter Greed
Dirt-Nap Ship Yards
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:38:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Kalle Demos
If I bought a plex using RL money, sold the plex and spent the ISK I made off the plex, how is that any different from me getting Aurum from the plex and spending it?

These +9 implants sound great and so does Aurum for remap, I mean really this is no different than buying insurance on your ship.

If you guys hated MT that much you should have complained about it when GTC were brought in


I can't be arsed to explain this to you....

I'll have my 4 year old brother log on and get you straightened out shortly.

Hang tight mate.


reported for account sharing




Pathetic.

Tell you what, post a screenshot of the report, and I will mail you 500 million isk.

I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU.

Allyria Kylari
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:38:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Aedeal
The difference is that if a person buys PLEX, then the ISK they spend goes directly into the EVE economy. There's no 'buy Bhaalgorn' button that doesn't involve a person finding a Bhaalgorn BPC, someone mining the minerals, someone making it, and someone putting it on the market. Supply is limited, the price fluctuates on supply and demand.

No *IF* CCP were to sell Bhaalgorns in the Aurum store, there'd be an infinite supply of them, with no money going into the EVE community and industry. This devalues the EVE economy, and makes warfare an utter joke, since someone could just buy 100 bhaalgorns (for PLEX *OR* ISK)... not good.

TLDR The essential difference is the 'magic creation' and unlimited supply of items which are limited in-game currently due to their being better (in some cases amazingly so) than regular items.


This is exactly what Hilmar means when he says "Stay the course." The ships may not be called "Bhaalgorn," but they may be re-skinned gold and do the same thing. This will circumvent the player production economy. It provides an INFINITELY easier route to obtaining your own ship. Now, instead of setting prices of Bhaalgorns by mineral and production cost, they will be set to PLEX-AUR market value. Because CCP sets the conversion rate of PLEX to AUR, they will have a very real direct control of the player economy.

cytex malrone
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:40:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
OK!

What if AUR was vanity ONLY items, like a pool table, shower, mobile lab, arcade etc which can ONLY be used and bought in stations and were purely there for vanity, would this be acceptable?


Yep and most people have already said that ccp refuse to comment and have repeated that this stratergy is going to change but the havent said how .

This is the gripe we dont trust them any more as they have been continually lieing to us about this . Personally i dont trust them to keep it vanity only and want aurum removed full stop they have handled this extremely badly and all good will to them is gone

Kogh Ayon
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:41:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Kogh Ayon on 25/06/2011 08:43:32
Originally by: Kalle Demos
If I bought a plex using RL money, sold the plex and spent the ISK I made off the plex, how is that any different from me getting Aurum from the plex and spending it?

These +9 implants sound great and so does Aurum for remap, I mean really this is no different than buying insurance on your ship.

If you guys hated MT that much you should have complained about it when GTC were brought in


May I buy a killing note that will pop+pod any a player I entered? Shout your pirce out, let me smack my notes on your faceLaughing!

We already have bad, why not worse?

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:45:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Kalle Demos
Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Kalle Demos
If I bought a plex using RL money, sold the plex and spent the ISK I made off the plex, how is that any different from me getting Aurum from the plex and spending it?

These +9 implants sound great and so does Aurum for remap, I mean really this is no different than buying insurance on your ship.

If you guys hated MT that much you should have complained about it when GTC were brought in


I can't be arsed to explain this to you....

I'll have my 4 year old brother log on and get you straightened out shortly.

Hang tight mate.


reported for account sharing




Pathetic.

Tell you what, post a screenshot of the report, and I will mail you 500 million isk.

I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU.


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Thanks for the ISK, just bought a monocle so im kindda broke

Vasha Rin
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:48:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Allyria Kylari
Originally by: Aedeal
The difference is that if a person buys PLEX, then the ISK they spend goes directly into the EVE economy. There's no 'buy Bhaalgorn' button that doesn't involve a person finding a Bhaalgorn BPC, someone mining the minerals, someone making it, and someone putting it on the market. Supply is limited, the price fluctuates on supply and demand.

No *IF* CCP were to sell Bhaalgorns in the Aurum store, there'd be an infinite supply of them, with no money going into the EVE community and industry. This devalues the EVE economy, and makes warfare an utter joke, since someone could just buy 100 bhaalgorns (for PLEX *OR* ISK)... not good.

TLDR The essential difference is the 'magic creation' and unlimited supply of items which are limited in-game currently due to their being better (in some cases amazingly so) than regular items.


This is exactly what Hilmar means when he says "Stay the course." The ships may not be called "Bhaalgorn," but they may be re-skinned gold and do the same thing. This will circumvent the player production economy. It provides an INFINITELY easier route to obtaining your own ship. Now, instead of setting prices of Bhaalgorns by mineral and production cost, they will be set to PLEX-AUR market value. Because CCP sets the conversion rate of PLEX to AUR, they will have a very real direct control of the player economy.


I didn't even think of this angle. That sounds an awful lot like socialism.

Nano J
Posted - 2011.06.25 09:01:00 - [23]
 

The original idea of PLEX's was great. It encouraged growth in that more people could play even if they weren't willing to spend RL money. It may have given some a time-based advantage in that they wouldn't have to grind for isk to buy in-game items. However, they were still forced to play on the same level as everyone else when it came to skills and standings; it was a way for players to support other players (and the community as a whole) by providing them a way to play. I myself used PLEX's often (tight on RL money, had plenty of isk).

The Aurum system completely changes what a PLEX (a "piloting license extension")does now though. Although isk, PLEX's, RL money, and aurum are all technically interchangeable, the aurum system requires the use of PLEX's. Regardless of whether you spend aurum with cash-bought or isk-bought PLEX's, at some point, someone had to have paid RL money for it. Cosmetic items are for pure personal vanity, so they have little to no effect on the overall game-play. +9 implants, increased standings, etc. are huge advantages though. Since these items would only be available via aurum, it creates a huge demand for PLEX's. Ultimately, I think the anger isn't just about MT's, but the items presented in them. Essentially, CCP is artificially inflating the in-game cost of PLEX's to increase RL sales of them at the expense of players who would have to grind more to compete (let alone play). Whereas anyone with RL money can just buy PLEX's at a flat rate. It does nothing to benefit the game as a whole - only individuals willing and able to pay more RL money while simultaneously putting other players at a disadvantage.

If CCP had came out and said, "Hey, Eve. We need more money to continue to develop the game, and possibly other games you may or may not play. We're going to raise the subscription fee/PLEX price $5," I doubt the community would have been nearly as angry. Sure, they would've had a few initial lost accounts. But the players would understand. I would have happily paid $20/month for the next year for both my accounts. Now I've let one account expire due to their general attitude toward the community's reaction, and am more than willing to cancel my main account if non-vanity MT's are implemented.

mrmooo
Caldari
Pentag Blade
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.25 09:21:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: mrmooo on 25/06/2011 09:30:28
Edited by: mrmooo on 25/06/2011 09:26:26
A Plex is gametime and becomes a commodity of eve it can be sold for isk to buy in the main-- player produced items--many did not like this as it gave those with fat wallets an advantage--but was sold as a necessary evil--however it does allow players to buy evetime with ingame money

Aur is not it converts a plex to enable the purchase of items produced out of thin air--if those items include in the future such things as ships or modules or sp --then this completely bypasses the player driven economy and or gives a player an ability to aquire advantage with no in game effort or without giving benefit to other players through purchasing items on the market

what about lPs --these have to be earned in the game--so are more acceptable as they are obtained by player effort much like isk--

I dont have any issues with vanity items being sold in this way -if they want to sell us a golden scorp--just sell the paint job --allow the ship to be built by the players

Finally make CQ optional --i dont want to always to unboard from my ship everytime I dock

Come on CCP listen to your subscribers -I dont want to unsubscribe -but its the first time since 2007 ive considered it--I will wait and see and hope sense prevails


Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.25 10:06:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: mrmooo
A Plex is gametime and becomes a commodity of eve it can be sold for isk to buy in the main-- player produced items--many did not like this as it gave those with fat wallets an advantage--but was sold as a necessary evil--however it does allow players to buy evetime with ingame money

Yes, PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.

Quote:
Aur is not it converts a plex to enable the purchase of items produced out of thin air--if those items include in the future such things as ships or modules or sp --then this completely bypasses the player driven economy and or gives a player an ability to aquire advantage with no in game effort or without giving benefit to other players through purchasing items on the market


Indeed, a non-vanity item would enable pay2win by buying from CCP instead of buying from other players and bypassing the economy. But the only way I can see that becoming a threat for the economy is when:
1) MT stuff becomes so cheap that a lot of people can afford it and so create volumes that interfere with the current market volumes;
2) MT stuff becomes cheaper than their in-game equivalents so people have no reason to buy from other players;
3) MT suff is better than current in-game stuff. Think meta 20 modules, T2 titans or +7 implants.

Originally by: Allyria Kylari
The ships may not be called "Bhaalgorn," but they may be re-skinned gold and do the same thing. This will circumvent the player production economy. It provides an INFINITELY easier route to obtaining your own ship. Now, instead of setting prices of Bhaalgorns by mineral and production cost, they will be set to PLEX-AUR market value. Because CCP sets the conversion rate of PLEX to AUR, they will have a very real direct control of the player economy.

Not neccessarily. Take the Ishukone Scorpion as an example. Even if you would be able to buy the whole ship and not just the skin, why would someone buy a 3,500 AUR (=400 million ISK) ship in the MT shop if the market sells them for 65 million ISK without paintjob?

I don't see Scorpion market prices rise to 400 million because of that. The only way CCP will determine market prices is when they will selll ships for below current market prices, which is not what they intend with vanity MT items.

mrmooo
Caldari
Pentag Blade
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.25 10:13:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: mrmooo
A Plex is gametime and becomes a commodity of eve it can be sold for isk to buy in the main-- player produced items--many did not like this as it gave those with fat wallets an advantage--but was sold as a necessary evil--however it does allow players to buy evetime with ingame money

Yes, PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.

Quote:
Aur is not it converts a plex to enable the purchase of items produced out of thin air--if those items include in the future such things as ships or modules or sp --then this completely bypasses the player driven economy and or gives a player an ability to aquire advantage with no in game effort or without giving benefit to other players through purchasing items on the market


Indeed, a non-vanity item would enable pay2win by buying from CCP instead of buying from other players and bypassing the economy. But the only way I can see that becoming a threat for the economy is when:
1) MT stuff becomes so cheap that a lot of people can afford it and so create volumes that interfere with the current market volumes;
2) MT stuff becomes cheaper than their in-game equivalents so people have no reason to buy from other players;
3) MT suff is better than current in-game stuff. Think meta 20 modules, T2 titans or +7 implants.

Originally by: Allyria Kylari
The ships may not be called "Bhaalgorn," but they may be re-skinned gold and do the same thing. This will circumvent the player production economy. It provides an INFINITELY easier route to obtaining your own ship. Now, instead of setting prices of Bhaalgorns by mineral and production cost, they will be set to PLEX-AUR market value. Because CCP sets the conversion rate of PLEX to AUR, they will have a very real direct control of the player economy.

Not neccessarily. Take the Ishukone Scorpion as an example. Even if you would be able to buy the whole ship and not just the skin, why would someone buy a 3,500 AUR (=400 million ISK) ship in the MT shop if the market sells them for 65 million ISK without paintjob?

I don't see Scorpion market prices rise to 400 million because of that. The only way CCP will determine market prices is when they will selll ships for below current market prices, which is not what they intend with vanity MT items.



you may be right but once in place it will give CCP an insentive to add new content ships etc through the MT market --and who can say how it will develop

Takumi Shinano
Posted - 2011.06.25 10:13:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Takumi Shinano on 25/06/2011 10:13:49
Pay 2 Win has always been an issue - even ingame currency can be used to purchase power leveling and faction standings leveling.

But here's the interesting thing...

If you want to sell a ship to a Mister Moneybags then you get out there and you either mine the minerals or subcontract that job (cutting into your profit) then you have to have the best researched blueprint which also costs time and isk. Finally you construct the damn thing (perhaps using your Corp POS, perhaps not) and cart it to Jita to sell it. You don't care where the Isk comes from, whether it's blowing up the Angel Cartel, pwning noobzors in null sec or buying a Plex - you just want your money.

If Mister Moneybags wants to buy a ship for AUR then he buys it from CCP who just... use a subroutine to spawn it.

Do you see the potential problems caused by CCP competing with its own players? The conflict of interest between making a buck right now through AUR or making a buck by supporting the needs of the merchants? Any idea what that will do to the previously pristine economy?

Eve really has only two things going for it. The sandbox nature of the game and the almost totally player driven economy. This will remove one of those two planks.

Telvani
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
Posted - 2011.06.25 10:14:00 - [28]
 

Plex != MT

Balanced by supply+demand, doesn't upset the game economy in the same way, its completely different. More detailed responses are easy to find I CBA to type it all again

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.06.25 10:26:00 - [29]
 


Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.06.25 10:40:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos

reported for account sharing


He didnt say his brother was logging in on the same account dimbulb.


 

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