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Wen Jaibao
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:16:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I lived through the supposed 'New Game Enhancements'. And the nefarious 'Combat Upgrade' before it. I stuck with Sony Online Entertainment through the changes, through the problems, through the double-talk and lack of response and gross negligence. I watched the forum warriors spew fire and filth, the moderators blindly banning ANY mention of rollback. I even suffered through the emulator, which was always 'in-development' and coming 'soon' ... and when it did arrive, sucked balls.



Through all that, I have to say, this is not even ****ing close. Only a complete idiot who has no idea what actually happened could make that comparison. We ***** about CCP devs not responding in 48 hours? Try a year and a half! You think your cries are being muffled? Hahahah ... you have no idea what a real set of moderators with a kill-switch can do, since obviously we're still able to talk about it in many different posts.

When you say 'NGE', your talking about a program that had absolutely no warning to the playerbase, that launched within a month of being on test, and that came with NO discussion. I've seen us talk CCP out of putting the new scorpion skin in this release, because it wasn't going to use player-made scorpions.

So, sure, voice your opinions.

But understand that not everybody is kicking up fires and getting all ****y, not because they are fanboi's who think everything CCP does is golden, but because we've experienced far, far, far worse then CCP has ever come close.



Damn, has it really been six years? After reading your post I feel dumb about making that comparison, because I was there too, but my memory is much foggier. All I remember is the nerd rage, and losing a good star wars game. If you want to make a comparison this would be like the SWG community finding out about the CU/NGE while it was still in its planning phases.

Thee only other thing I have to add is this quote from the head of SOE.

We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players. John Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:17:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: XIRUSPHERE

It is about integrity : CCP has shown it is an aspect that is wholly lacked, they have shown that they cannot accept the responsibility of trust. They have shown they will fully consider and attempt to implement a pay to win scheme which has nothing to do with the player base (items from thin air, skills no one had to train or sell, standings you never had to grind).

Such concepts debase the core player base, objection to these concepts has resulted in a campaign of creative and exploitative interpretation of player opinion as threats or worse. People blowing the **** whistle are locked down and shut down. Your attempts to obfuscate only hurt the game you love.

No one should ever enable a company who has lost complete touch with it's base and who has the audacity to do what they have done and respond as they have over the last days.


Hmm. I'm serious here. Please. A LINK would be considerably helpful in me agreeing with you. Something besides, you know, saying that they did something.

Completely legit, here.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:20:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 25/06/2011 07:16:06
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

But understand that not everybody is kicking up fires and getting all ****y, not because they are fanboi's who think everything CCP does is golden, but because we've experienced far, far, far worse then CCP has ever come close.



I guess when you put it like that, then we should be happy? I think it's a sad state of affairs when people accept a certain amount of mistreatment from those they're paying because "all the other game corps are doing it" and "some much worse". TBH, I rather not participate in such situations. Therefore, I've unsubbed.

Compared to many here I'm an "old man" and have seen the gaming industry go through its evolution starting from 8bit games to what it is today. For the longest time I refused to pay a subscription having been accustomed for many years to purchasing a game at a fixed price and then playing the hell out of it. More recently, friends would frequently talk about their experience with MMO's. I resisted because of subscriptions until I was introduced to Eve. There's no romanticism here about it being space oriented. On the contrary I originally found it to be very 2 dimensional lacking many things that I would consider a "good" box game. At that point, after a month of piddling around, I quit for 2 years. Then I came back. My opinion was the same but I more actively sought the social aspect of the game. That is when Eve hooked me. I've been a regular and frequent player since. But, often, in absence of friends being online, I would question why I continued to play this. Without the social interaction, the game really is vacant of anything approaching interesting.

However, the idea of now paying a subscription and having to pay for performance enhancing items is just too much. There's no longer even a fixed recurring cost. Even if those items aren't in the game as of yet, I think it's fair to conclude that's where it's going. Having it hang over us like a looming avalanche is not a good state of affairs. CCP's treatment of the customers is atrocious. That's yet another reason to no longer patronize this company.

Had we employed CCP as we do a lawyer or doctor, in most countries, we could cause them to lose their license to practice with the amount of verifiable proof laying about of CCP's lies to its own customers. The fact that many accept this treatment and behavior completely confounds me and yet that acceptance is facilitation that allows it to occur over and over again.


Now that is funny. I did the whole 'fight the system' with sub games, too. And have been big in arguing against MT's.

And I do see what your saying. But, where's Neverwinter Nights and Diablo again?

Equinox II
APEX ARDENT COALITION
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:24:00 - [34]
 

The NGE was far beyond this situation, at the the moment.

Still can't believe it was six years ago. I miss bloodfin!

Amoes Sten
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:24:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I lived through the supposed 'New Game Enhancements'. And the nefarious 'Combat Upgrade' before it. I stuck with Sony Online Entertainment through the changes, through the problems, through the double-talk and lack of response and gross negligence. I watched the forum warriors spew fire and filth, the moderators blindly banning ANY mention of rollback. I even suffered through the emulator, which was always 'in-development' and coming 'soon' ... and when it did arrive, sucked balls.



Through all that, I have to say, this is not even ****ing close. Only a complete idiot who has no idea what actually happened could make that comparison. We ***** about CCP devs not responding in 48 hours? Try a year and a half! You think your cries are being muffled? Hahahah ... you have no idea what a real set of moderators with a kill-switch can do, since obviously we're still able to talk about it in many different posts.

When you say 'NGE', your talking about a program that had absolutely no warning to the playerbase, that launched within a month of being on test, and that came with NO discussion. I've seen us talk CCP out of putting the new scorpion skin in this release, because it wasn't going to use player-made scorpions.

So, sure, voice your opinions.

But understand that not everybody is kicking up fires and getting all ****y, not because they are fanboi's who think everything CCP does is golden, but because we've experienced far, far, far worse then CCP has ever come close.



As someone who also played SWG before and during the NGE I gotta say that there are in fact some similarities.

The most prominant being the attitude of the developers toward the players. E.G. "We lead, we allow you to follow"

Otherwise you are correct about the rest of the comparisons. SWG has been dead a long time; ever since the exodus of players after the NGE really. That game had maybe two or three major updates from the NGE to now. As much as I dislike what CCP is doing they are quite different in this important respect.

Mira Robinson
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:26:00 - [36]
 

Absolutely, this debacle hasn't come even close to reaching NGE levels.

But it's starting where the NGE started.

Devs NOT LISTENING TO PLAYERS.

Wen Jaibao
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:27:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 25/06/2011 07:16:06
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

But understand that not everybody is kicking up fires and getting all ****y, not because they are fanboi's who think everything CCP does is golden, but because we've experienced far, far, far worse then CCP has ever come close.



I guess when you put it like that, then we should be happy? I think it's a sad state of affairs when people accept a certain amount of mistreatment from those they're paying because "all the other game corps are doing it" and "some much worse". TBH, I rather not participate in such situations. Therefore, I've unsubbed.

Compared to many here I'm an "old man" and have seen the gaming industry go through its evolution starting from 8bit games to what it is today. For the longest time I refused to pay a subscription having been accustomed for many years to purchasing a game at a fixed price and then playing the hell out of it. More recently, friends would frequently talk about their experience with MMO's. I resisted because of subscriptions until I was introduced to Eve. There's no romanticism here about it being space oriented. On the contrary I originally found it to be very 2 dimensional lacking many things that I would consider a "good" box game. At that point, after a month of piddling around, I quit for 2 years. Then I came back. My opinion was the same but I more actively sought the social aspect of the game. That is when Eve hooked me. I've been a regular and frequent player since. But, often, in absence of friends being online, I would question why I continued to play this. Without the social interaction, the game really is vacant of anything approaching interesting.

However, the idea of now paying a subscription and having to pay for performance enhancing items is just too much. There's no longer even a fixed recurring cost. Even if those items aren't in the game as of yet, I think it's fair to conclude that's where it's going. Having it hang over us like a looming avalanche is not a good state of affairs. CCP's treatment of the customers is atrocious. That's yet another reason to no longer patronize this company.

Had we employed CCP as we do a lawyer or doctor, in most countries, we could cause them to lose their license to practice with the amount of verifiable proof laying about of CCP's lies to its own customers. The fact that many accept this treatment and behavior completely confounds me and yet that acceptance is facilitation that allows it to occur over and over again.


You know you can always buy your *insert OP Arum here (lol Tengu)* with ISK. I don't think it would be a big deal if every item they sold was a BPC. Who cares where the sink is, really? In the case of the Arum BPCs, it would be a plex sink, not an ISK sink like current BPO purchases are.

But I don't think this is what CCP has in mind. It makes too much sense.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:29:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Amoes Sten
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I lived through the supposed 'New Game Enhancements'. And the nefarious 'Combat Upgrade' before it. I stuck with Sony Online Entertainment through the changes, through the problems, through the double-talk and lack of response and gross negligence. I watched the forum warriors spew fire and filth, the moderators blindly banning ANY mention of rollback. I even suffered through the emulator, which was always 'in-development' and coming 'soon' ... and when it did arrive, sucked balls.



Through all that, I have to say, this is not even ****ing close. Only a complete idiot who has no idea what actually happened could make that comparison. We ***** about CCP devs not responding in 48 hours? Try a year and a half! You think your cries are being muffled? Hahahah ... you have no idea what a real set of moderators with a kill-switch can do, since obviously we're still able to talk about it in many different posts.

When you say 'NGE', your talking about a program that had absolutely no warning to the playerbase, that launched within a month of being on test, and that came with NO discussion. I've seen us talk CCP out of putting the new scorpion skin in this release, because it wasn't going to use player-made scorpions.

So, sure, voice your opinions.

But understand that not everybody is kicking up fires and getting all ****y, not because they are fanboi's who think everything CCP does is golden, but because we've experienced far, far, far worse then CCP has ever come close.



As someone who also played SWG before and during the NGE I gotta say that there are in fact some similarities.

The most prominant being the attitude of the developers toward the players. E.G. "We lead, we allow you to follow"

Otherwise you are correct about the rest of the comparisons. SWG has been dead a long time; ever since the exodus of players after the NGE really. That game had maybe two or three major updates from the NGE to now. As much as I dislike what CCP is doing they are quite different in this important respect.


Well, I got a similar feeling from the emails, the whole 'this is our plan, let's stick with it'.

Only difference is, I know CCP listens. Or did I miss where we can buy the new scorpion skins from the NeX already?

I mean, not a week ago that was the plan. Players raised a fuss in the proper threads, plan was halted so that it didn't mess up the player-generated ships.

So I definitely SEE them listening. Maybe not to everything ... but they still listen. I think some (not you, as an example, but many on these forums) just associate the word 'listening' with 'do everything I tell you to do'.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:32:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Mira Robinson
Absolutely, this debacle hasn't come even close to reaching NGE levels.

But it's starting where the NGE started.

Devs NOT LISTENING TO PLAYERS.


Do you mean that they aren't listening, or they aren't doing what we tell them to?

Listening involves them hearing us, right? And understanding what we're saying. It doesn't mean they HAVE to listen.

I'll do my best to find a very recent, very real example from test server just before the incarna release that I was a part of.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:34:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 25/06/2011 07:35:54
Originally by: Wen Jaibao

You know you can always buy your *insert OP Arum here (lol Tengu)* with ISK. I don't think it would be a big deal if every item they sold was a BPC. Who cares where the sink is, really? In the case of the Arum BPCs, it would be a plex sink, not an ISK sink like current BPO purchases are.

But I don't think this is what CCP has in mind. It makes too much sense.



The issue is not purely the MT anymore. Even still, the game is so much of a time sink as to make the average player WANT to bring in RL currency in order to shorten the grind which TBH is almost painful. I realize people do this already with plex. But now we have a proliferation. Things only get worse from here on out for those players not incline to open up their wallet more often than once a month for their subscription.

The other issue is CCP's treatment of its customers. Even if CCP did a 180 on MT, I don't think I'd want to continue to employ them for the service they provide. Somehow, somewhere, the customers have lost their perspective of the relationship they have with CCP. For me, no product or service is worth dealing with this kind of treatment. The fact that most other companies do the same thing to varying extents is not a reason to sit quietly and accept it. The very act of doing so allows the company to subordinate its customers. I personally wouldn't allow my local grocer to treat me this way and I need his products more than I need CCP's services. What you decide to do is your decision. This one, it's mine.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:38:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Wen Jaibao

You know you can always buy your *insert OP Arum here (lol Tengu)* with ISK. I don't think it would be a big deal if every item they sold was a BPC. Who cares where the sink is, really? In the case of the Arum BPCs, it would be a plex sink, not an ISK sink like current BPO purchases are.

But I don't think this is what CCP has in mind. It makes too much sense.



The issue is not purely the MT anymore. Even still, the game is so much of a time sink as to make the average player WANT to bring in RL currency in order to shorten the grind which TBH is almost painful. I realize people do this already with plex. But now we have a proliferation. Things only get worse from here on out for those players not incline to open up their wallet more often than once a month for their subscription.

The other issue is CCP's treatment of its customers. Even if CCP did a 180 on MT, I don't think I'd want to continue to employ them for the service they provide. Somehow, somewhere, the customers have lost their perspective of the relationship they have with CCP. For me, no product or service is worth dealing with this kind of treatment. The fact that most other companies do the same thing to varying extents is not a reason to sit quietly and accept it. The very act of doing so allows the company to subordinate its customers. I personally wouldn't allow my local grocer to treat me this way and I need his products more than I need CCP's services.


I'm actually reading a post, pasted below, where you were helping CCP remove the Ishkone Scorpion 'dont-trade-for-items-yet' from this Incarna release. There were other posts that follow.

I understand that these things, such as communicating a single opinion from hundreds of thousands of opinionated and often very different subscribers, can be hard. But I have yet to find a game where the devs communicate more.

Of course, that's its own issue ... a trend for less personalization in video games. We're just numbers to them, and they're just game ruiners to us.



http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1526423

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:46:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon


I'm actually reading a post, pasted below, where you were helping CCP remove the Ishkone Scorpion 'dont-trade-for-items-yet' from this Incarna release. There were other posts that follow.



I wasn't helping CCP do anything. I was concerned about Zinfandel's comments regarding the Ishukone Scorpion because it was so broad and general that it could be applied to any ship. And it peaked my concern about MT. As we see, my concern was justified.

Quote:

I understand that these things, such as communicating a single opinion from hundreds of thousands of opinionated and often very different subscribers, can be hard. But I have yet to find a game where the devs communicate more.

Of course, that's its own issue ... a trend for less personalization in video games. We're just numbers to them, and they're just game ruiners to us.



Well CCP's behavior is their own problem. My patronage of their service is my own.

I have a view of corporate profiteering that indicates it is fundamentally flawed......the pursuit of every increasing profits.....it's unsustainable since most companies interpret that to mean to continually squeeze their customers with ever increasing pressure. I have no problem with a company increasing their profits but, you'll have to excuse me if I don't allow it to be at my expense.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:51:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon


I'm actually reading a post, pasted below, where you were helping CCP remove the Ishkone Scorpion 'dont-trade-for-items-yet' from this Incarna release. There were other posts that follow.



I wasn't helping CCP do anything. I was concerned about Zinfandel's comments regarding the Ishukone Scorpion because it was so broad and general that it could be applied to any ship. And it peaked my concern about MT. As we see, my concern was justified.

Quote:

I understand that these things, such as communicating a single opinion from hundreds of thousands of opinionated and often very different subscribers, can be hard. But I have yet to find a game where the devs communicate more.

Of course, that's its own issue ... a trend for less personalization in video games. We're just numbers to them, and they're just game ruiners to us.



Well CCP's behavior is their own problem. My patronage of their service is my own.

I have a view of corporate profiteering that indicates it is fundamentally flawed......the pursuit of every increasing profits.....it's unsustainable since most companies interpret that to mean to continually squeeze their customers with ever increasing pressure. I have no problem with a company increasing their profits but, you'll have to excuse me if I don't allow it to be at my expense.


I'm there with you. Though I respect the business zeal and simple marketing genius that is WoW, I hate the game on a fundamental level because of how it's perverted MMO's across the board, new and old.

EvE is a successful game, still growing slowly and surely. But with WoW, our wonderful MMO developers realized that there was REALLY big money out there, and it stopped being a playground for interesting and new ideas.

It's sad that a simple success that otherwise should be celebrated, can ruin so much more. Walmart would be a real life example of this.

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:52:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
When they make the decision you don't like, it's fine to speak your mind. We quit, and go somewhere else. But to honestly think that we DESERVE ... are OWED ... a say in this game?

I've paid my subscription for years. I'm a customer. The truth is, I don't have ANY right, other then to chose not to purchase.

So, you're a pacifist with no spine that'll quietly slink away. Good for you. The rest of us would like to continue playing imaginary spaceships, and the only way to do that is to convince CCP that the path they're going down is going to end in disaster. Once their virtual store is in full-swing, there's no going back.


Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:57:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
When they make the decision you don't like, it's fine to speak your mind. We quit, and go somewhere else. But to honestly think that we DESERVE ... are OWED ... a say in this game?

I've paid my subscription for years. I'm a customer. The truth is, I don't have ANY right, other then to chose not to purchase.

So, you're a pacifist with no spine that'll quietly slink away. Good for you. The rest of us would like to continue playing imaginary spaceships, and the only way to do that is to convince CCP that the path they're going down is going to end in disaster. Once their virtual store is in full-swing, there's no going back.




No, I'm a business owner who, if you came into my shop screaming about how I had to serve you this way or that, I'd at best call the cops and at worst go to jail myself for my violent tendencies Laughing

You don't need a spine to be big and bad in the interwebs. Nothing these petitions and rioters and whatnot are doing requires an OUNCE of courage. And if these players really think throwing a virtual tantrum is the means to getting what they want, then I question how they were raised before anything else.



There is something important being said by the playerbase. But it's covered in so much bull**** and nerd rage that it's fairly lost even to those of us who support it.

Cataca
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:03:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I lived through the supposed 'New Game Enhancements'. And the nefarious 'Combat Upgrade' before it. I stuck with Sony Online Entertainment through the changes, through the problems, through the double-talk and lack of response and gross negligence. I watched the forum warriors spew fire and filth, the moderators blindly banning ANY mention of rollback. I even suffered through the emulator, which was always 'in-development' and coming 'soon' ... and when it did arrive, sucked balls.



Through all that, I have to say, this is not even ****ing close. Only a complete idiot who has no idea what actually happened could make that comparison. We ***** about CCP devs not responding in 48 hours? Try a year and a half! You think your cries are being muffled? Hahahah ... you have no idea what a real set of moderators with a kill-switch can do, since obviously we're still able to talk about it in many different posts.

When you say 'NGE', your talking about a program that had absolutely no warning to the playerbase, that launched within a month of being on test, and that came with NO discussion. I've seen us talk CCP out of putting the new scorpion skin in this release, because it wasn't going to use player-made scorpions.

So, sure, voice your opinions.

But understand that not everybody is kicking up fires and getting all ****y, not because they are fanboi's who think everything CCP does is golden, but because we've experienced far, far, far worse then CCP has ever come close.



So you are saying because it could actually be ANY worse, we should shut up and accept it?

How about you grow some balls and actively fight something you obviously despise. Your argument makes no.sense.at.all.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:06:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I lived through the supposed 'New Game Enhancements'. And the nefarious 'Combat Upgrade' before it. I stuck with Sony Online Entertainment through the changes, through the problems, through the double-talk and lack of response and gross negligence. I watched the forum warriors spew fire and filth, the moderators blindly banning ANY mention of rollback. I even suffered through the emulator, which was always 'in-development' and coming 'soon' ... and when it did arrive, sucked balls.



Through all that, I have to say, this is not even ****ing close. Only a complete idiot who has no idea what actually happened could make that comparison. We ***** about CCP devs not responding in 48 hours? Try a year and a half! You think your cries are being muffled? Hahahah ... you have no idea what a real set of moderators with a kill-switch can do, since obviously we're still able to talk about it in many different posts.

When you say 'NGE', your talking about a program that had absolutely no warning to the playerbase, that launched within a month of being on test, and that came with NO discussion. I've seen us talk CCP out of putting the new scorpion skin in this release, because it wasn't going to use player-made scorpions.

So, sure, voice your opinions.

But understand that not everybody is kicking up fires and getting all ****y, not because they are fanboi's who think everything CCP does is golden, but because we've experienced far, far, far worse then CCP has ever come close.



So you are saying because it could actually be ANY worse, we should shut up and accept it?

How about you grow some balls and actively fight something you obviously despise. Your argument makes no.sense.at.all.


Actually, what you say makes no sense.

Where are my balls, or courage, or testicular fortitude, involved with this?

Are you angry? Are you upset? Why?

It's a fake world. A video game. Something meant to be enjoyed.

I mean, if I was revolting against a tyrannical government, IN REAL LIFE, I'd be shaken by your words.

In the best case, with EvE, all I end up doing is saving myself $35.00 a month. Oh, my!

Vallea Anzomi
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:17:00 - [48]
 

I went through the NGE, this is nothing like that. This is a non-issue and you whiners are idiots.

Amoes Sten
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:19:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: Amoes Sten
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I lived through the supposed 'New Game Enhancements'. And the nefarious 'Combat Upgrade' before it. I stuck with Sony Online Entertainment through the changes, through the problems, through the double-talk and lack of response and gross negligence. I watched the forum warriors spew fire and filth, the moderators blindly banning ANY mention of rollback. I even suffered through the emulator, which was always 'in-development' and coming 'soon' ... and when it did arrive, sucked balls.



Through all that, I have to say, this is not even ****ing close. Only a complete idiot who has no idea what actually happened could make that comparison. We ***** about CCP devs not responding in 48 hours? Try a year and a half! You think your cries are being muffled? Hahahah ... you have no idea what a real set of moderators with a kill-switch can do, since obviously we're still able to talk about it in many different posts.

When you say 'NGE', your talking about a program that had absolutely no warning to the playerbase, that launched within a month of being on test, and that came with NO discussion. I've seen us talk CCP out of putting the new scorpion skin in this release, because it wasn't going to use player-made scorpions.

So, sure, voice your opinions.

But understand that not everybody is kicking up fires and getting all ****y, not because they are fanboi's who think everything CCP does is golden, but because we've experienced far, far, far worse then CCP has ever come close.



As someone who also played SWG before and during the NGE I gotta say that there are in fact some similarities.

The most prominant being the attitude of the developers toward the players. E.G. "We lead, we allow you to follow"

Otherwise you are correct about the rest of the comparisons. SWG has been dead a long time; ever since the exodus of players after the NGE really. That game had maybe two or three major updates from the NGE to now. As much as I dislike what CCP is doing they are quite different in this important respect.


Well, I got a similar feeling from the emails, the whole 'this is our plan, let's stick with it'.

Only difference is, I know CCP listens. Or did I miss where we can buy the new scorpion skins from the NeX already?

I mean, not a week ago that was the plan. Players raised a fuss in the proper threads, plan was halted so that it didn't mess up the player-generated ships.

So I definitely SEE them listening. Maybe not to everything ... but they still listen. I think some (not you, as an example, but many on these forums) just associate the word 'listening' with 'do everything I tell you to do'.


The scorpion skin is a valid point. But then again, look at what it is exactly. I am not a developer but to me it seems pretty easy to roll back something the size of a ship skin. Besides, maybe they wont have to roll it back much longer?

Naturally they cant listen to everything. My hope in posting is that they listen to enough, though.

I just want CCP to talk with us instead of adopting a wait it out attitude. Im already unsubscribed why the hell shouldnt I attempt to reach CCP. Cant do any harm.

Amoes Sten
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:21:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon


I'm actually reading a post, pasted below, where you were helping CCP remove the Ishkone Scorpion 'dont-trade-for-items-yet' from this Incarna release. There were other posts that follow.



I wasn't helping CCP do anything. I was concerned about Zinfandel's comments regarding the Ishukone Scorpion because it was so broad and general that it could be applied to any ship. And it peaked my concern about MT. As we see, my concern was justified.

Quote:

I understand that these things, such as communicating a single opinion from hundreds of thousands of opinionated and often very different subscribers, can be hard. But I have yet to find a game where the devs communicate more.

Of course, that's its own issue ... a trend for less personalization in video games. We're just numbers to them, and they're just game ruiners to us.



Well CCP's behavior is their own problem. My patronage of their service is my own.

I have a view of corporate profiteering that indicates it is fundamentally flawed......the pursuit of every increasing profits.....it's unsustainable since most companies interpret that to mean to continually squeeze their customers with ever increasing pressure. I have no problem with a company increasing their profits but, you'll have to excuse me if I don't allow it to be at my expense.


I'm there with you. Though I respect the business zeal and simple marketing genius that is WoW, I hate the game on a fundamental level because of how it's perverted MMO's across the board, new and old.

EvE is a successful game, still growing slowly and surely. But with WoW, our wonderful MMO developers realized that there was REALLY big money out there, and it stopped being a playground for interesting and new ideas.

It's sad that a simple success that otherwise should be celebrated, can ruin so much more. Walmart would be a real life example of this.



...Huh. I cant find anything I disagree with. I fully endorse this response.

Koba Kyogen
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.25 08:23:00 - [51]
 

I think it's the SONY curse.

<EXO> & <ISB> Leoten Semper, Valcyn


Koba

Ein Spiegel
Minmatar
Fly-by-Night Industries LLC PTY LTD
Posted - 2011.06.25 09:40:00 - [52]
 

I used to be Catman Dewback of Kettemoor. I played SWG from fairly close to the start. I was, at times, an Entertainer, a Ranger, a Pistoleer, a Rifleman, a Bioengineer, and that's just what I can remember off the top of my head.

You're right. The comparison right this moment to the NGE is not correct. But in some ways, it's worse. I know how bad communication was in SWG (I was a Ranger/Bioengineer/Creature Handler longest - let me tell you how it feels to have all of your professions wiped out of creation in an instant, after being significantly altered a few times before), and I know that despite MOST of SOE not listening to the players, there were devs that actually got involved, and some changes suggested did manage to get into the release cycle. In CCP, I think you would be hard pressed to find another company who's developer to community relationship is as good as it is, and you sure as hell won't find a CSM. Which is why I say it's worse, because it seems like Hilmar and Zulu have been possessed by the spirit of John Smedley from that era.

What I'm seeing in the forum and devblogs is a very strong reminder of the crowd control used at that time - which is why I worry about some of the community relations people. Except it's being especially effective here - the CCP Devs and even the community relations team are in a serious lock down about what is or is not said by them. The devblog, while it had some information, does not apologize (or even sound vaguely conciliatory), does not acknowledge the primary cause of the rage, and in no way gives any direct indication of which way they will go. The amount of forum rage, and the amount of in-game rage, relating to events, whether warranted or not, deserves from a basic common sense PR point of view, a much better, much louder official response from a coordinated team. Not a single voice from on high which comes across by many as disdainful at least, while the lower voices are silent. (SOE had this... after Tiggs couldn't sell the NGE and Smed stepped in directly.)
The in-game effects, the changes in Incarna and possible changes, to me, are not why this is still going on, and why the comparisons are made. It's because a company that most of us love, and for some of us was the saviour when the NGE left us bitter and full of hatred for SOE and MMOs in general, has taken on the appearance of what we saw before. What makes it more chilling, is that we all know CCP has not been this way before - I wasn't here for the T20 thing, so maybe then - and it's frightening to see and feel parallels to what was going on way back when. No, the changes or direction of CCP in the past, have nothing on the SOE low-level evil that existed all the time. But to see such a good company, suddenly start to sound like a bad company, to close ranks completely and shift in tone of message to what we have seen (swearing in an official message in a non-humorous way?) is enough cause the comparisons. I didn't look for comparisons. I just noticed... hey, this is all familiar.
And I stayed into the NGE for awhile, before packing up three or four cities and then dropping myself into a memorial city.

Also... please keep in mind the SWG "emulator" was an entirely independent effort, with no connection to SOE... volunteers and reverse-engineering. Which, based on the AT commentaries, I think Hammer is actually playing right now... (Eerie thought, no?)

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:37:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ein Spiegel
I used to be Catman Dewback of Kettemoor ...


What you said was worded well. I remember a lot of violence when NGE came out. Players were banned by the droves from the forums for even *mentioning* a petitions, and we had to use out of game servers to communicate.

I remember the overboard GM's throwing players into the worst areas of the game, and even locking down new accounts for a bit. It was simply so much meaner, and cruel.

This? I still feel that 90% of the problems here are player perceptions. Perceptions, AND assumptions. The calls of 'they lied', the grandstanding about being mislead. Being a forum *****, I've seen a lot of people say CCP said this, or claimed that, and I have to take it with a grain of salt. I wish I was made aware of these claims, if it's possible.

What I'm seeing now is a company responding to a gross over-reaction of it's playerbase. Hell, they can't even release a blog that says 'we're sticking to our guns', without players taking it as a slap in the face.

I know so many are wanting to see Hilmar stand up and say 'I'm sorry, I'm sorry, we'll do a rollback and never do mt's and give everyone pink ponies', but the truth is he'd just **** off a whole separate portion of the playerbase who'd threaten to quit.

I kinda feel for the rich bastids and their $1000.00 jeans, know what I mean?


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