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blankseplocked Mac OS X 10.6.7 Doesn't Support Shader Model 3
 
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Mechazer Zotron
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:27:00 - [1]
 

After a long phone call to MAC Support Express Lane the Senior VP told me that that Mac OS X 10.6.7 Does Not support Shader Model 3! He went on to say that it is a matter for the engineers at APPLE! He also said that the only way the engineers will release a software update for Mac OS X 10.6.7 to support Shader Model 3 is for them to get tons of feedback requesting them to make such a software release!

If you Visit http://www.apple.com/feedback Subject: Eve online Incarna Update Doesn't Work

In the Body Need to Mention: That the Eve Online Incarna Update doesn't work on Mac OS X 10.6.7 due to a lack of a software update to Mac OS X 10.6.7 to Support Shader Model 3!


Tara Nighthawk
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:00:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Tara Nighthawk on 23/06/2011 17:02:13
So that means Lion will not support it either Crying or Very sad


Hold on, I just realised. That would mean that no current Mac will work with EVE? Even the latest 27" iMacs? Shocked

Thanks goodness I am still on 10.6.6 Wink

DocDot II
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:06:00 - [3]
 

Time to bootcamp i guessSad

Kernel Flux
Intaki Armaments
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:11:00 - [4]
 

I can't speak to 10.6.7 but Lion does run Incarna. I am running it now on my 27" iMac I5 and can actually run dual clients with CQ. I am an OSX dev.


Serpents smile
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:24:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Serpents smile on 23/06/2011 17:28:45
Looks like your "Mac (its Mac not MAC you stupid woman) Support Express Lane Senior VP" smokes the same stuff the devs smoke here that made vanity monocles worth 80 bucks.

Running 10.6.7 here and all is, uh, well it runs. Turned it off haven't decided what is worse, the pointless resource hog or the stoopid doors view.

But it runs and it works under 6.7. Pretty sure its SM 3 with my Chipset Model: ATI Radeon HD 4870

Edit for clarification



Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:29:00 - [6]
 

I'm confused. I got 10.6.7 on my MBP and can run 3 clients with the CQ turned on.

What am I doing that makes it work?

Also, I thought cider did the calls to the graphics cards, so what OSX supports is not relevant.

Mechazer Zotron
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:31:00 - [7]
 

Please Feel Free to Call Mac Support! If your support time has run out, then ask for an exception because you bought Mac OS X recently! Your problem is you need an updated graphics driver! Put in your phone number and check the Call Me Now Button! When the first support agent calls you tell him/her that you would like to talk to his/her supervisior! When the supervisior comes on ask to speak to the Senior VP regarding EVE online and Shader Model 3! And when he tells you what I said feel free to feel dumb!

siredmond
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:34:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: siredmond on 23/06/2011 17:39:54
Edited by: siredmond on 23/06/2011 17:34:59
tl;dr; I explain SM3 in regards to OS X, the proper people to beg to fix the issue is transgaming who maintains the mac port anyways.

I feel that I need to reply here to clear up some confusion. I will try to break it down.

First off I would like to preface that Incarna runs fine on my macbook pro 5,3. This is the macbook pro from 2009 it has the 9400m/9600m gpu from nvidia. Not the X1600 the older mac have, which many other users report not being able to play EVE on OS X.

I believe it is the same year but a tier lower than the mac you mentioned in one of your other posts. It does not achieve a very high frame rate with everything on high, but it is playable with reduced settings. I have however turned of CQ as the high load times do not really justify the little gain in functionality. But I think your problem of missing icons is not related to the lack of SM3 support that the x1600 users have.

Anyways,

Mac OS X has never implemented DirectX. Shader Model 3 is part of the Direct3D 9c specification. Direct3d in turn part of the DirectX API (Application Programming Interface). In fact, only two major platforms implement DirectX, Windows Operating System, and the XBox. This unfortunately the API that EVE uses to render it's graphics.

OS X uses an API called openGL to render its graphics. And under Mac OS X (10.6.7) it has pretty much full support for openGL 3.0 if the hardware can handle it. The equivalent to the Shader Model under OpenGL is GLSL, OpenGL Shading Language. OpenGL has 1.3 of GLSL. The 9400/9600 does support openGL 3.0. the older x1600 however do NOT, to my knowledge 3.0 only supports openGL 2.0 and GLSL 1.1.

What the mac client for eve is a wrapper port. There is an additional piece of software in addition to the EVE client which allows EVE, which is a windows program essentially, to run under OS X. This wrapper is supplied by transgaming (i believe that is who is doing it, iirc) is transparent in this case and is not perfect, but implements the need functionality needed to play eve on OS X. It does a few things, it implements the windows libraries, and importantly translates all the calls to directX EVE makes into openGL that is rendered by OS X. This process can also run EVE under most linux distros by warping eve in WINE but I digress.

This next part I am not 100% clear, perhaps someone with more D3D and OpenGL knowledge will know. But I believe that it requires support for OpenGL 3.0 to render quickly and correctly some of the shaders used by eve, which require SM3. Hence that the older x1600 GPU can no longer play eve under os x, under my theory.

EDIT: this took me longer than I wanted it too, so many more posts now.....

Serpents smile
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:34:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Serpents smile on 23/06/2011 17:36:59
Originally by: Mechazer Zotron
rabble!




I RUN Mac OS 10.6.7 AND IT RUNS INCARNA FINE!

edit:
Ugh well there is no Mac OS 1010 (os x 10)Rolling Eyes, yet.

Verite Rendition
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:38:00 - [10]
 

Your Senior VP is either an idiot or very misinformed. The OpenGL subsystem in Mac OS X 10.6 supports the entire OpenGL 2.x specification, including SM3. Furthermore, as a number of people have already noted, they have been able to play EVE-Online just fine, which simply would not be the case if Mac OS X did not support SM3.

If you don't believe me, check out the OpenGL Extensions Viewer, it will tell you exactly what features your system supports.

Now there is a single exception: just because the OS supports SM3 does not the mean the hardware does. Apple has not (and will not) be enabling SM3 support for Radeon X1K cards. Users with the Radeon X1600 Pro (a very common GPU in iMacs) will not be able to play EVE-Online as a result. While conceptually Apple could enable SM3 support for this hardware, given that they've long since stopped offering even extended support for those systems, that's not going to happen.

TL;DR: The OS supports SM3. Your hardware does not.

ariana ailith
FreakyTech
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:38:00 - [11]
 

@Mechazer Zotron: So first you spam a solution that isn't a solution. Now you claim OSX doesn't do shaders? What's next? CCP discontinues EVE for windows?

Even iPhones support shaders and stuff like that. And the mere fact that there are a bunch of people here with high end macs that say it works just fine and my own iMac which loads the game WHILE RUNNING 10.6.7 by default means you're wrong! So do some research before you spray your faulty info.

As you might have seen, if your GPU doesn't support shaders you'd get a notice. Just search for x1600 on this forum. Additionally. If Not one mac supports shaders... Why would CCP use it.

Syned Vanderog
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Serpents smile
Edited by: Serpents smile on 23/06/2011 17:28:45
Looks like your "Mac (its Mac not MAC you stupid woman) Support Express Lane Senior VP" smokes the same stuff the devs smoke here that made vanity monocles worth 80 bucks.



Thums up for the post. Pretty much describes what i feel.
However, EVE Mac client is wrapped in wine with win dll's, and therefore immitates SM3. Mac OS does not support SM3 directly. No more, no less.

End of clarification of clarification.

CCP - Close the topic

Mechazer Zotron
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:18:00 - [13]
 

I believe it is the same year but a tier lower than the mac you mentioned in one of your other posts. It does not achieve a very high frame rate with everything on high, but it is playable with reduced settings. I have however turned of CQ as the high load times do not really justify the little gain in functionality. But I think your problem of missing icons is not related to the lack of SM3 support that the x1600 users have.

Okay how would you suggest fixing my missing items/icons issue keep in mind i didn't make a copy of anything eve related before doing a clean install!

@ Everyone else what i sayed in this forum simply is that mac doesn't natively run EVE! I simply suggest a way of asking Mac to make ther OS X software to natively support SM3 and forgo the "wrapper" that caused the issues in the first place!

@ In regards to spaming my 'solution in earlier threads i meerely told people how i got aroung the problem of not being able to log in! i admit it wont work for all but at that time an still CCP has not ofeered a solution so i merrely mademine available so the people had something, anything to work off of!

siredmond
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:26:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: siredmond on 23/06/2011 18:26:31
Edited by: siredmond on 23/06/2011 18:25:58
Originally by: Mechazer Zotron
Okay how would you suggest fixing my missing items/icons issue keep in mind i didn't make a copy of anything eve related before doing a clean install!



I suggest doing another clean install.. and clearing out the preferences (somewhere in ~/Library/Application Support/ ) before you reinstall. the client up for download from the download page seemingly already has the Incarna patch in, and does not require the font patch.

Originally by: Mechazer Zotron
@ Everyone else what i sayed in this forum simply is that mac doesn't natively run EVE! I simply suggest a way of asking Mac to make ther OS X software to natively support SM3 and forgo the "wrapper" that caused the issues in the first place!

Not going to happen, they would have to rewrite the graphics engine to use openGL, at the very least.

Originally by: Mechazer Zotron

@ In regards to spaming my 'solution in earlier threads i meerely told people how i got aroung the problem of not being able to log in! i admit it wont work for all but at that time an still CCP has not ofeered a solution so i merrely mademine available so the people had something, anything to work off of!

Those other posts did not have a good preface to what it fixed, and it did not belong in the x1600\SM3 threads.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:32:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Serpents smile

Ugh well there is no Mac OS 1010 (os x 10)Rolling Eyes, yet.



Yeah, I know what you are saying. But when I do a "about this mac" it does say "Mac OS X version 10.6.7". I look at it like the I do the quote "My name is Bond, James Bond" and other statement from the Department of Redundancy Department.

Syned Vanderog
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:41:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mechazer Zotron

@ Everyone else what i sayed in this forum simply is that mac doesn't natively run EVE! I simply suggest a way of asking Mac to make ther OS X software to natively support SM3 and forgo the "wrapper" that caused the issues in the first place!



EVE for Mac was always in a wrapper. It has absolutely nothing to do with the SM3 for itself.
99% of nowadays games available for Mac are in a wrapper because most of developers use DirectX, which is developed by Microsoft and is not available (due to a close source nature of it) on other platforms. But this is just for clarification, off-topic.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:47:00 - [17]
 

Yeah, OS X 10.6.7 uses Open GL 2.1 with a few 3.0 things thrown in for good measure. But, yeah looks like there is no sigh of full Open GL 3.2 support. Here's some technical info current Open GL support in 10.6.7 if you wanna nerd out.

siredmond
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
Yeah, OS X 10.6.7 uses Open GL 2.1 with a few 3.0 things thrown in for good measure. But, yeah looks like there is no sigh of full Open GL 3.2 support. Here's some technical info current Open GL support in 10.6.7 if you wanna nerd out.


Well the openGL profile passes all but one test for 3.0 on my mac. Ogl 3.2 has more things. so you can implement all of 3.0 but not 3.2

Syned Vanderog
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:04:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
Yeah, OS X 10.6.7 uses Open GL 2.1 with a few 3.0 things thrown in for good measure. But, yeah looks like there is no sigh of full Open GL 3.2 support. Here's some technical info current Open GL support in 10.6.7 if you wanna nerd out.


What version of OGL Mac OS uses has nothing to do with the fact, that eve was made to be DX. And thus, as far as i understand it, for CCP it is cheaper to work on a wrapper with Cedega (or whos' the wrapper is), rather than to rewrite the engine.
Moreover, AFAIK OGL is available on Windows as well.

But what is the point of showing up capabilities? Join CCP crew, start working on an OGL version. All of us will be grateful...
OR maybe just write up more bug reports from testserver, at the very least?

siredmond
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:10:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Syned Vanderog
What version of OGL Mac OS uses has nothing to do with the fact, that eve was made to be DX. And thus, as far as i understand it, for CCP it is cheaper to work on a wrapper with Cedega (or whos' the wrapper is), rather than to rewrite the engine.
Moreover, AFAIK OGL is available on Windows as well.

But what is the point of showing up capabilities? Join CCP crew, start working on an OGL version. All of us will be grateful...
OR maybe just write up more bug reports from testserver, at the very least?

Actually it has everything to do with the fact, since OSX has no DX, any DX call made in the wrapper is translated to a OGL call for the operating system.

And yes, OGL is available for every major platform, but it does not change the fact that the graphics engine will need to be rewritten for it, as it is currently in DX. And Eve uses cider by transgaming

Verite Rendition
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2011.06.24 05:11:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: siredmond
Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
Yeah, OS X 10.6.7 uses Open GL 2.1 with a few 3.0 things thrown in for good measure. But, yeah looks like there is no sigh of full Open GL 3.2 support. Here's some technical info current Open GL support in 10.6.7 if you wanna nerd out.


Well the openGL profile passes all but one test for 3.0 on my mac. Ogl 3.2 has more things. so you can implement all of 3.0 but not 3.2
Lion will be bringing OpenGL 3.2 support (but not 3.3, let alone 4.x) support to the OS. It's likely that only the most recent hardware - Radeon HD 5000/6000 & Intel HD Graphics - will support it however.

Tara Nighthawk
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.24 07:25:00 - [22]
 

I admit this thread had me worried for a while.

There are posts from people with the older graphics cards who can't run EVE anymore. To lose access to a game overnight like that really sucks Crying or Very sad

However, to suggest that Apple have actually removed a graphics feature by updating from Snow Leopard 10.6.6 to 10.6.7 really doesn't make much sense. Apple have always made a lot of fuss over the graphical abilities of Macs, so to downgrade the graphics with a minor update of the OS seems odd.

Also, we have posts from people with new all-singing all-dancing 27" iMacs (lucky beggars) who say EVE runs fine. Those new machines surely must have the latest version of SL?

Lastly, we have posts from Developers who have a pre-release version of Lion, who also say EVE runs fine. I can't believe Apple would have a feature in SL, remove it in probably the last update before Lion comes out and then put it back in to Lion.

I suspect the critical point is the wrapper which EVE uses. The Apple OS might not support Shader Model 3 directly, but that is DirectX, which non-Windows devices can't use anyway. Macs (and Linux) use OpenGL. Either way, EVE runs in a Windows emulation wrapper, so it is the capabilities of that wrapper that count, not the support (or lack of support) of DirectX in the Apple OS itself.

Hope that is correct, but it seems to make more sense to me than the idea of Apple removing a feature and then putting it back Wink

Dekiri
Gallente
Useless Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.24 07:49:00 - [23]
 

thats actually cool that lion does not support it. It gives ccp a reason to make a fix so the older machines can play as well. Since it doesnt make sense to have a client around that does not work at all with the current OS. Just remove the SM3 stuff for macs and then work on a permanent fix...

Wonder if they think up a solution that makes many people happy

Tara Nighthawk
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.25 17:08:00 - [24]
 

EVE works better with 10.6.7 and better still with 10.6.8, so presumably Lion will be even better.

Hellsing Amarri
Invictus Latrones
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:49:00 - [25]
 

Eve keeps randomly dropping for me on my iMac, I lowered shader support etc and it stopped. Eve and Lion definitely don't like each other at present :(


 

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