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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:23:00 - [1]
 

EVE has had money for in-game item transactions going on for years and years. People have been coming up with 'reasons' for doing so for ages. Characters have been sold, items have been sold, and people have been buying ISK. There has always been a perfectly rational reason for a lot of people for doing all of this, and most likely everyone has been a part of it at least once.

Wake up and smell the coffee, it's like everyone are ignoring the fact that this game is completely littered with people who are willing to do so, and I am 100% certain that many of the people who are complaining at CCP for implementing a cash for in-game items have actually paid for such items themselves. But of course, when CCP does it, it is bad.

If you did not know of this, you are a nave player. The fact is that CCP are well aware of the RMT going on, and have been taking measures to stop it. But it's virtually impossible to stop it, it's like trying to stop people from making MP3's out of CD's and getting people to download them for free. What people do is what becomes the normal standard, and trying to oppose it is futile.

What CCP is doing is a factor of this as a company you have to realize that what players do and what players say are not all the same. There are plenty of people out there right now that are against CCP selling monocles for $80 but are perfectly fine with buying a carrier for the same amount of cash, through a non-CCP source. What players, people, consumers do is what drives the economy, whether it is virtual or not.

Here's the kicker that everyone who are against this are saying: No one is forcing you to buy anything ... so the real reason why people are "mad" is

a) That they did not know sooner
b) That they fear that some players will gain 'unfair' advantages through RMT
c) They don't like to play a game which has RMT going on in it
d) That they think the new 'walking in stations' is bad in general

And here's my take on it:

a) This have been announced a long time ago, it has been discussed by your dear CSM, but ultimately you are not dealing with a company that can be democratic when it comes to important business decisions. RMT is the way of the future and CCP continuing to not getting a piece of the pie whilst players continue to break the EULA to buy ISK, items, etc. is not going to happen. The only way to control it is to sift items into the game that first and foremost has been bought so it generates revenue to CCP rather than Mr. smiley glad hand that thinks CCP is evil for doing the same thing.

b) It is already happening, the extreme version is people paying people real money to do things in-game. There are alliances out there in this game that are as strong as they are, not because they are better players but because they pay more. Whether it is by having ten computers with ten screens playing simultaneously, or simply by buying a **** ton of ISK to give their alliance assets or allies. If this aurum thing is what woke you up to see some kind of 'corruption' you have been lying to yourself for too long.

c) You should have left after the open beta. Idealism is cute, but it always contains an willful ignorance for what is truly going on. Everyone knows that there are several sites that sell in-game items and ISK, and that a minority get caught. This was true before this patch, and it will be true tomorrow and the day after. CCP will never be able to stop RMT.

d) WIS is good for EVE in the same way that changing NOS, or nerfing supercaps is good for EVE. *It appeals to a larger consumer base* and creates an illusion for a lot of players that there is an element of "fairness" in the game. This is all of course a lie perpetuated by people who are rather gullible, cute... but gullible. The reality is that the perception of fairness is more important to people than "fun gameplay". Most people will agree that EVE was a lot more fun when you could fly around in a typhoon doing 8km/s.

Ripperljohn
Caldari
Ore Mongers
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:28:00 - [2]
 

<3 Tob

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:35:00 - [3]
 

... and no, I will not buy the monocle.

I'm not Trollin
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:42:00 - [4]
 

Well written and agreed with.

Christine Peeveepeeski
Rodents of Unusual Size
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:45:00 - [5]
 

This is a finely written post. +1


Jaroslav Unwanted
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:49:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted on 23/06/2011 11:52:28
Nicely put. Could write few things. But generally no need for it.

Nicely put.

edit. yep heard PL spy records. The moral speech etc. Very Happy

Antsy Ellecon
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:49:00 - [7]
 

well put

stop crying ya idiots and love the bomb

+1

Christine Peeveepeeski
Rodents of Unusual Size
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:20:00 - [8]
 

What ****es me off is that posts like this drop to page 3 in minutes because of all the whining fools that don't understand the following.

1 - Buying to win has been about for as long as plex and RMT has existed.

2 - No one will buy a plex to directly covert to aurum for a vanity item... it's ******ed and clearly so. They'll buy a plex so they can use the isk to purchase a Battleship/T3/ anything else useful.... the person that bought that plex with ISK will be the one that buys the bloody monocle etc because they think 1.5 billion ISK is nothing.

This is nothing more than a marketing **** up from CCP.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:42:00 - [9]
 

Nice post you forget to mention that CCP did fine for years with the old business model and this has now changed to a focus on MT so they can squeeze us to finance their other ventures. So more and more resources are going to be transferred from developing new EVE gameplay to making more stuff CCP can sell for Aurum and other games that we don't play at all.

Incarna has been the most content-starved expansion EVE has ever had, and with this new CCP I'm very afraid that the next updates will be no better, focusing on MT-opportunities and eyecandy to attract new players.

How long is that going to last?

Tesla Helix
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:51:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Tesla Helix on 23/06/2011 12:57:29
Edited by: Tesla Helix on 23/06/2011 12:52:17
I don't know where i stand on the whole issue but isn't there a difference between buying plex to convert to ISK to spend in a player created/driven economy and buying plex to create an item from the database?

Underneath it all i think this is what concerns people and quite fairly too. Plex as it stands now is a clever way of combating black market isk selling while at the same time reinforcing the player driven economy and basic game mechanics. Buying ISK through plex interacts and supports the economy where as buying Plex to convert directly into an item bypasses the economy. Right now its no big deal, who really cares about boots and monocles (okay apart from the lengthy emo-rage thread people), but the inference certainly appears to be that other typically player created items, and more game changing services, will be for sale through the same system which is where things take a turn for the worse.

The way i see it at the moment, If CCP's intentions are to make the micro-transaction purely vanity as it is, they need to say so - silence currently seems to foster mis-information and negative speculation.

Edit: In many respects it seems to be a system designed to increase the ISK value of Plex to reduce the number of people that can play off it.

Nehaj
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.23 13:14:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Nehaj on 23/06/2011 13:14:14
You speak wisely, Tobias. And the world outside Eve is even worse.

But you are wrong on one count. It is fun. I don't give a **** about isk or RMT or monocles. You just happen to be the enemy. And, I am not going to be satisfied till I feed your liver to my dogs. Twisted Evil

Kalmanaka
Caldari
Eve Engineering Operations
Eve Engineering
Posted - 2011.06.23 13:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
a bunch of crap

Thanks for completely failing to understand why people are upset. The aurum store opened with only items for the elite. Only people who have a lot of money can afford the items in it. It's like having your town get it's first movie theater only to find the tickets are $100 each.
CCP crapped all over the little guy and the little guy is mad.

Bhealla Pava
Posted - 2011.06.23 13:46:00 - [13]
 

+1

Amen brother! Good read, and agreed! My first month into eve i purchased some gametime from shattered crystal and converted them to plex, then sold them. I recieved ingame isk and purchased other items for myself ingame. I really have been reading these forums searching for a legit reason to be mad but i cant find what has truely changed.

Why not just buy a plex ingame using all the isk your making and convert them to the new currency if you want those new items so bad. I don't really want the new items so i could care less. :-)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.23 13:55:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Here's the kicker that everyone who are against this are saying: No one is forcing you to buy anything
No. That's not the kicker.

Here is the kicker: the NeX shows that CCP has no clue about what they're doing. They don't understand their customers. They don't understand microtransactions. They don't understand the business model. They're setting themselves up for a massive waste of time and resources on something they don't understand.

Moreover.
a) No, the CSM were not satisfactorily informed.
b) Buying stuff from the market through PLEX (or illegal RMT) is vastly different from MT.
c) The existence of a black market is not a reason to formalise and institutionalise it.
d) WIS is good for EVE if it opens up more options and gameplay, but not if it closes down other options in the process.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
EVE has had money for in-game item transactions going on for years and years. People have been coming up with 'reasons' for doing so for ages. Characters have been sold, items have been sold, and people have been buying ISK. There has always been a perfectly rational reason for a lot of people for doing all of this, and most likely everyone has been a part of it at least once.

Wake up and smell the coffee, it's like everyone are ignoring the fact that this game is completely littered with people who are willing to do so, and I am 100% certain that many of the people who are complaining at CCP for implementing a cash for in-game items have actually paid for such items themselves. But of course, when CCP does it, it is bad.
...


Removed, please do not bypass the profanity filter. Navigator

This kind of player outcry happens to be the only way to make CCP take notice that they are heading in the wrong direction. And this is about both their big plans for MT and their implementation of CQ. And you can shove your disdain where the sun don't shine.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:41:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Here's the kicker that everyone who are against this are saying: No one is forcing you to buy anything
No. That's not the kicker.

Here is the kicker: the NeX shows that CCP has no clue about what they're doing. They don't understand their customers. They don't understand microtransactions. They don't understand the business model. They're setting themselves up for a massive waste of time and resources on something they don't understand.

Moreover.
a) No, the CSM were not satisfactorily informed.
b) Buying stuff from the market through PLEX (or illegal RMT) is vastly different from MT.
c) The existence of a black market is not a reason to formalise and institutionalise it.
d) WIS is good for EVE if it opens up more options and gameplay, but not if it closes down other options in the process.


a) They were informed up to the point where they had influence over the issue. The CSM aren't there to make business decisions for CCP.

b) Not really, essentially it is cash for in-game items.

c) The problem is that when you cannot prevent people from RMT'ing you have few things to do to try and get a piece of the cake yourself. Players obviously have shown CCP that they want to pay for in-game items. There are few (if any) other options.

d) Agreed, have you seen indications of the latter?



Originally by: Razin

If you can't tell the difference between what's been going on in game up until now and CCP spawning gameplay items and services for real money you are literally a retard. A well meaning retard, but still a retard.

This kind of player outcry happens to be the only way to make CCP take notice that they are heading in the wrong direction. And this is about both their big plans for MT and their implementation of CQ. And you can shove your disdain where the sun don't shine.


Argumentum ad-hominem. If you wish to present your argument/counter then feel free to do so. I will not spend further time on people who cannot hold their emotions and puerile need to demean someone for not agreeing with them.

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:49:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Bane Necran on 23/06/2011 14:49:01
My only real concern is the comments about selling standings, which also leads me to think selling SP is not far down the road.

I don't even care if they sell ships and modules that are already in game, people could always cash in PLEX for ISK and buy things, but if they start selling better/exclusive ships and modules which can only be bought with AUR, that's where i draw the line.

Both those things would trivialize the game greatly.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kalmanaka
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
a bunch of crap

Thanks for completely failing to understand why people are upset. The aurum store opened with only items for the elite. Only people who have a lot of money can afford the items in it. It's like having your town get it's first movie theater only to find the tickets are $100 each.
CCP crapped all over the little guy and the little guy is mad.


Straw-man followed by equivocation.

First of all, you are mostly ignoring what I wrote, or possibly not understanding it. There are already "tickets at $100 each" all over EVE. Titans, 7 accounts running simultaneously, people paying RL$ to make alliances run, people using RL$ to buy carriers, faction mods, implants, et cetera. I fully understand that this makes some people mad. But as I said before, it is an illusion of 'fairness' that you are looking at. EVE never was fair, and I disagree with you that it is meant to, as well as I disagree that it can be.

There are plenty of people in the world who cannot afford a computer that runs EVE or pay the subscription fee for EVE, tough luck. "The little guy" has no right to own a monocle, or any in-game item either for that matter. If he wants to he can earn that ISK in-game to buy it, or out-game if he has the means there. But by any just definition of "the little guy", that guy isn't even playing EVE.

Janus Talmash
Talmash Imports and Exports Group
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:49:00 - [19]
 

So the OP agrees to buying faction standing for money then? How about complete ships or faction ammo only available for Aurum, not produced by anyone, moved by anyone but just created out of thin air. Faction POS towers, aurum only and ready to use.

One must be a giant ****ing moron to agree to that.

Devil's Call
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:53:00 - [20]
 

Well written post. +1

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:53:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Bane Necran
Edited by: Bane Necran on 23/06/2011 14:49:01
My only real concern is the comments about selling standings, which also leads me to think selling SP is not far down the road.

I don't even care if they sell ships and modules that are already in game, people could always cash in PLEX for ISK and buy things, but if they start selling better/exclusive ships and modules which can only be bought with AUR, that's where i draw the line.

Both those things would trivialize the game greatly.


Slippery slope

Just because someone does A, does not mean they will do B. Raging about possible outcomes is a waste of time.

(If they indeed prove to be right... well, let's say that I (and many others) today can pay $800 or 20 billion to get a character with... say 60 million skillpoints. And that several people do so whether we like it or not.)

Lord Kazuhiro
Caldari
Amarr Empire Shipyards
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Janus Talmash
So the OP agrees to buying faction standing for money then? How about complete ships or faction ammo only available for Aurum, not produced by anyone, moved by anyone but just created out of thin air. Faction POS towers, aurum only and ready to use.

One must be a giant ****ing moron to agree to that.


Quoted for the real truth. But your wasting your breath, the OP lives in his own make believe reality.

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:57:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Just because someone does A, does not mean they will do B. Raging about possible outcomes is a waste of time.


It doesn't even matter if they don't do B. A is enough.

I imagine you probably just have standings with your tutorial agent, so i wouldn't expect you to care, but many people have put a lot of time and effort into their standings. It's also a crushing blow to RP, if people can just pay 5 bucks or something to be an honoured member of a faction.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:00:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Razin on 23/06/2011 15:32:19
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Bane Necran
Edited by: Bane Necran on 23/06/2011 14:49:01
My only real concern is the comments about selling standings, which also leads me to think selling SP is not far down the road.

I don't even care if they sell ships and modules that are already in game, people could always cash in PLEX for ISK and buy things, but if they start selling better/exclusive ships and modules which can only be bought with AUR, that's where i draw the line.

Both those things would trivialize the game greatly.


Slippery slope

Just because someone does A, does not mean they will do B. Raging about possible outcomes is a waste of time.
How about if the lead game designer is talking about doing B?

In another thread I linked a CCP document for you. Do educate yourself.

P.S. The "slippery slope" fallacy argument is for tools. Life does not follow formal logic, it is much more complex than that.

Nehaj
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:01:00 - [25]
 

All members of Pandemic Legion are Russian lapdogs.

Tobias Sjodin is a member of Pandemic Legion.

Therefore, Tobias wears a monocle.

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:02:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Reldor Silverheart on 23/06/2011 15:03:00
Originally by: Janus Talmash
So the OP agrees to buying faction standing for money then? How about complete ships or faction ammo only available for Aurum, not produced by anyone, moved by anyone but just created out of thin air. Faction POS towers, aurum only and ready to use.

One must be a giant ****ing moron to agree to that.


That isn't even confirmed by CCP, all you have to go on there is a doccument alledelgy by CCP, but it could VERY WELL be manufactured to put CCP at the bad side. Thing is, there's people that's willing to go far to discredit a company, or make it look good.

I for one fo not believe that we will be able to buy items that change the actual gameplay with AUR, because as i recall CCP has said previously. AURUM IS ONLY COSMETIC , nothing else. And until i see differently i won't jump onto the bandwagon.

And i agree with the OP, i find it funny with alliances such a PL for example banning people permanently who buy aurum stuff, i find it hypocrytical that they ban that , but many alliances hold a "Don't ask Don't tell" stance towards botting and RMT. Until i see alliances that want to ban aurum stuff, i want to see them take a clear stance towards RMT and botting first. *puts on flame ******ant suit"

I probably offended many people here, but it's just my perspective

Edit: i saw the op is from PL, but i do agree with his views and it was not my intent to put a bad view towards PL, it's just that i have the best example from that, due to a recent thread.

Canuk EroSennin
Gallente
Public Security Section Nine
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:05:00 - [27]
 

Selling faction only standings is something I think they should have in place already....but should be like isk to the faction officials (like a bribe)....however SP and sec status should remain as non-sellable because that would definately make the whole SP system pointless.



Originally by: Bane Necran
Edited by: Bane Necran on 23/06/2011 14:49:01
My only real concern is the comments about selling standings, which also leads me to think selling SP is not far down the road.

I don't even care if they sell ships and modules that are already in game, people could always cash in PLEX for ISK and buy things, but if they start selling better/exclusive ships and modules which can only be bought with AUR, that's where i draw the line.

Both those things would trivialize the game greatly.

Thayne en Welle
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:07:00 - [28]
 

Go ahead and set up heat monitoring and watch resource utilization on your PC while in CQ.

Now compare those stats with any high-end graphics FPS.

Now explain to me how this could have possibly gotten by QA with not even a whisper to the customer base that CQ has higher resource demands than the latest top-end FPS games on the market right now and that you should probably disable it unless you are 100% certain that your system has excellent air flow.

This type of irresponsibility bothers me more than the leaked newsletter, though that was very troubling as well, more so because of the complete lack of understanding of their player base than anything else.

No comment at all from CCP on player concerns as well as no comment on the various technical issues is very troubling.

I am just not sure if this is the type of company I wish to support any further. CCP's response or lack thereof in the next few days will help me decide.

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:09:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Canuk EroSennin
Selling faction only standings is something I think they should have in place already....but should be like isk to the faction officials (like a bribe)....however SP and sec status should remain as non-sellable because that would definately make the whole SP system pointless.



Originally by: Bane Necran
Edited by: Bane Necran on 23/06/2011 14:49:01
My only real concern is the comments about selling standings, which also leads me to think selling SP is not far down the road.

I don't even care if they sell ships and modules that are already in game, people could always cash in PLEX for ISK and buy things, but if they start selling better/exclusive ships and modules which can only be bought with AUR, that's where i draw the line.

Both those things would trivialize the game greatly.



ISk for faction standings is something i could see in the game, but if so it would need a risk element of say, for example getting caught causes you to have a drop in the standing instead of increase. Make the isk to standing ratio good, but still with alot of risk involved

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:10:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Bane Necran
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Just because someone does A, does not mean they will do B. Raging about possible outcomes is a waste of time.


It doesn't even matter if they don't do B. A is enough.

I imagine you probably just have standings with your tutorial agent, so i wouldn't expect you to care, but many people have put a lot of time and effort into their standings. It's also a crushing blow to RP, if people can just pay 5 bucks or something to be an honoured member of a faction.


They haven't even done A. They have talked about it. Game developers consider and talk about A LOT of different things, what matters is what they finally decide upon, the stuff we actually get to experience. A lot of the emotional outcry is a bunch of steam basically coming out of fear of the unknown. We're witnessing a reaction to change... a reaction to what people are used to, and guess what... a year or two down the line when everything has settled down, should CCP remove these features people will react as violently once again. Possibly even the same people who hated it in the first place as well.

This all is a storm in a glass of water.


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