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Taipan Leviathan
Dark Star Confederation
The Ancients.
Posted - 2011.06.22 12:49:00 - [1]
 

Oy,

I just got a scimitar (logistics V and all that good stuff to) and im wondering what the ppluspoint of the scimi is comparedto the basilisk.

The basilisk obviously has a better bonus (energy transfer compared to the scimitar tracking link)but is there annything the scimi is actually better in?

In other words: Should I train Caldari cruiser V

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:00:00 - [2]
 

Not an expert on those but seems scimi is more willing to tank income dmg with it's speed tanking ability and lower sign radius and the basilisk some kind of powerhorse with different bonus, both are pretty good.

Unlikely the Oneiros vs Guardian Crying or Very sad -waiting to see the changes CCP Tallest can afford to do and will very likely train for Oneiros after this.

Jude Lloyd
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:04:00 - [3]
 

Basi =)

Drexit
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:05:00 - [4]
 

for pve, scimi. Most ships in a shield fleet don't need cap anyway. the tracking link bonus is huge for helping high end pirate bs land hits on cruisers and below. Plus you don't have to waste hours finding another basi pilot to trade cap with.

Taipan Leviathan
Dark Star Confederation
The Ancients.
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:07:00 - [5]
 

Wait a basi cant permarun 4 large remote reps?

Ostracon Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Taipan Leviathan
Wait a basi cant permarun 4 large remote reps?


They can, but you need certain skills to V. Logistics is the main one, which you have.

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:17:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Taipan Leviathan
Wait a basi cant permarun 4 large remote reps?


They can but its tight. they truly shine in a cap transfer chain then theyre just awesome

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:44:00 - [8]
 

scimi is way better
smaller sig+better speed --> awesome

and you dont need another basilisk just to keep you alive

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2011.06.22 15:13:00 - [9]
 

scimi if you are the only logistic and if you are the only logi you probably are in a smal and fast gang wich is perfect for the scimi speed
basilisk if you have more than one because in that case you use the cap transfer bonus and be capstable with 4 large transfers

Rebbecca Black
Posted - 2011.06.22 15:45:00 - [10]
 

From a PvP perspective it really depends what you're going up against.

First off, both can run four large meta 4 shield transfers non stop, its just a matter of how you regen cap. On a Scimi you're relying on cap recharge while a Basi you get your cap from the 'cap chain.' Because of this Basilisks are much better at dealing with neuts than a Scimi (this is one of the reasons you should still use 2x large 'regard' energy transfers even with logi 5, as it safeguards against neuting/ECM a member of the chain.) Neither a Scimi or a Basi should ever really be flown as a solo logistics boat, although with a scimi you can get away with it in a gang at times because you rely on the local cap recharge and not cap from a chain.

Tank) A basi can fit a higher EHP tank than a scimi can, but a scimi has better sig and speed. So if you're forming up a BC gang to counter ahacs, I'd rather use a basi, because medium guns aren't going to have a massive issue tracking a scimi w/ transversal. If instead you're forming up to counter a BS gang.. scimi wins hands down as large turrets have a very difficult time tracking them. Same issue if you're setting up to counter a BC gang (arty canes + HML drakes.) Medium guns/HML won't have a massive problem with the scimi, so the basi's tank wins out. Not to mention the basi has great kin resists to deal with Tremor and Scourge ammo.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.22 16:11:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/06/2011 16:11:22
I'll expound on this more in a minute, but it basically comes down to a few things:
- The Scimitar is much faster (but not more agile). This is ONLY important in large open field battles where everyone is all over creation and you need to MWD from one side of the field to the other to rep someone or pull range from a nano fleet. It is notably 100% useless in most fights I've been in. It would have been useful a couple days back when we raided a 6 room drone plex to nab a Legion. But then the **** repping of the Scim would have cost us the fight outright. Neutral
- The Basilisk can keep up fine with most cruiser/BC gangs and only starts to have trouble when trying to keep up with Cynabal/Vagabond/Dramiel gangs. The Scimitar can actually be dangerous in this regard (and logis in general) because fleet warping means the logi lands first.... !
- The Basilisk can be fit for a much larger tank - both passive and active.
- The Basilisk has a better capacitor, and Capacitor Is Life.
- The Basilisk has an energy transfer bonus which is awesome.
- The Basilisk has a higher sensor strength, making it less susceptible to jams. Other Caldari ships also have higher sensor strengths, which means there's on average more jammers used per Caldari ship on the field.
- The Basilisk has much more repping power than the Scimitar, because most good Scimitar fits have 3 RRs. And while people can fit 4 RRs to their Scim, they're making other concessions the Basilisk doesn't have to make.
- The Basilisk is a better solo logistics, because it has a better cap situation, better tank, higher sensor strength, has more reps, and can energy transfer its gang mates (read: Amarr/Gallente ships).
- The Scimitar has a smaller sig radius. This can be important when you're being shot at by missiles or when you're orbiting a battleship at 500m.

Now that I'm done with a "logical" argument, I'll pull an argumentum ad experientiam and say that I've been in a couple thousand fights as the solo logistics pilot in small gang warfare (gang size < 8, always) and taking sentry fire and hostile ships most of the time. The Basilisk is so much better than the Scim that it isn't even a little bit funny. The combined better repping power and bigger tank far outweighs the mobility gains from the Scimitar. (Note: This is not actually an argumentum ad experientiam .... but it sounded good!)

IMO, the Scimitar NEEDS to replace that useless tracking link bonus with an active tank bonus if its going to have any hope at all of being remotely as good as the Basilisk at being a solo shield logi.

-Liang

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.06.22 17:45:00 - [12]
 

The scimmy can be made cap stable with a light local tank (active or buffer) and 3x large shield xfers (no tracking links). The basilisk can be made cap stable with 4x large shield xfers, 2x large energy xfers and about 50% more buffer tank than the scimmy. The only advantage the scimmy has is it doesn't require a partner, it can operate as the only logi in the gang. The basilisk/guardian require a second logi fitted more or less the same so they can feed each other cap. So if you only have one, the scimmy is better, if you have two or more, the basi stomps the scimmy in every relevant way.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.22 17:57:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
The scimmy can be made cap stable with a light local tank (active or buffer) and 3x large shield xfers (no tracking links). The basilisk can be made cap stable with 4x large shield xfers, 2x large energy xfers and about 50% more buffer tank than the scimmy. The only advantage the scimmy has is it doesn't require a partner, it can operate as the only logi in the gang. The basilisk/guardian require a second logi fitted more or less the same so they can feed each other cap. So if you only have one, the scimmy is better, if you have two or more, the basi stomps the scimmy in every relevant way.


Fit your Basi like a Scim and you'll see the Basi actually outperforms the Scim as a solo logi too. :)

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.06.22 18:50:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Fit your Basi like a Scim and you'll see the Basi actually outperforms the Scim as a solo logi too. :)


You mean how the Basi has an equal amount of mids, less lows, and more highs; resulting in less total cap, less regeneration and as a result: no stability (even with 3x S95)?

To add insult to injury: it has a larger sig, a resistance hole, less total HP and most importantly... is a whopping 600m/s slower with an MWD.

The main problem the Basi have is that while the Scimi is undisputed among any gangs faster than say, 1600m/s; the Scimi can also contend with the Basi in the heavier/slower gangs because it can use speed and range as defensive means even as the fight scale up - and it can actually reach quite decent speeds with an AB (where less cap concerns lead to more options propping up it's speed; or allowing you to rely on dualprop setups as more obscure choices).

The option to utilize a sig-tank among tanky Drake-gangs (~1000m/s) make the Scimi alot more sturdy than a Basi - while still matching the gang's average mobility.

The only time, ever, you want to use a Basi is in a heavy gang where the gang itself rely on cap-transfer and extra repair volume (with the 4/2 chain split); Drakes rarely need cap. Some BS do.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.22 18:57:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Noisrevbus
Originally by: Liang Nuren

Fit your Basi like a Scim and you'll see the Basi actually outperforms the Scim as a solo logi too. :)


You mean how the Basi has an equal amount of mids, less lows, and more highs; resulting in less total cap, less regeneration and as a result: no stability (even with 3x S95)?

To add insult to injury: it has a larger sig, a resistance hole, less total HP and most importantly... is a whopping 600m/s slower with an MWD.

The main problem the Basi have is that while the Scimi is undisputed among any gangs faster than say, 1600m/s; the Scimi can also contend with the Basi in the heavier/slower gangs because it can use speed and range as defensive means even as the fight scale up - and it can actually reach quite decent speeds with an AB (where less cap concerns lead to more options propping up it's speed; or allowing you to rely on dualprop setups as more obscure choices).

The option to utilize a sig-tank among tanky Drake-gangs (~1000m/s) make the Scimi alot more sturdy than a Basi - while still matching the gang's average mobility.

The only time, ever, you want to use a Basi is in a heavy gang where the gang itself rely on cap-transfer and extra repair volume (with the 4/2 chain split); Drakes rarely need cap. Some BS do.


I fly a Basilisk every night that active tanks 1000+ DPS and permaruns 5 RRs. I've repped my gang mates vs a Vindicator and tanked a Hyperion, Dominix, Hurricane, Cyclone, and sentry guns simultaneously. This is something the Scimitar literally cannot do. You're doing it wrong.

Taipan Leviathan
Dark Star Confederation
The Ancients.
Posted - 2011.06.22 19:00:00 - [16]
 

Interesting reply's.

The pvp i currently do are small nano gangs so in that case the scimi does well.
I am also usually the only shield logi so that also works well.

What about Its other great use: Incursions? WHich one is supperior there?

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.06.22 19:29:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

I fly a Basilisk every night that active tanks 1000+ DPS and permaruns 5 RRs. I've repped my gang mates vs a Vindicator and tanked a Hyperion, Dominix, Hurricane, Cyclone, and sentry guns simultaneously. This is something the Scimitar literally cannot do. You're doing it wrong.


Oh i'm sorry, you could just have said "gimmick alt" and i wouldn't have bothered to post.

As for helping the OP choose a skillpoint priority though... Rolling Eyes.


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.22 19:35:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Noisrevbus
Originally by: Liang Nuren

I fly a Basilisk every night that active tanks 1000+ DPS and permaruns 5 RRs. I've repped my gang mates vs a Vindicator and tanked a Hyperion, Dominix, Hurricane, Cyclone, and sentry guns simultaneously. This is something the Scimitar literally cannot do. You're doing it wrong.


Oh i'm sorry, you could just have said "gimmick alt" and i wouldn't have bothered to post.

As for helping the OP choose a skillpoint priority though... Rolling Eyes.



Lets see.

Me: A lot of reasons why the Basilisk is better.
Me: Citing thousands of fights as the sole logi in a small gang environment under heavy damage
You: The Basilisk can't fight solo and can't run even 3 RRs.
Me: I do it all the time with my mains, every day, for hours.
You: LOL gimmick alt
Me: ............ Wut?


Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.22 21:05:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Noisrevbus
Originally by: Liang Nuren

I fly a Basilisk every night that active tanks 1000+ DPS and permaruns 5 RRs. I've repped my gang mates vs a Vindicator and tanked a Hyperion, Dominix, Hurricane, Cyclone, and sentry guns simultaneously. This is something the Scimitar literally cannot do. You're doing it wrong.


Oh i'm sorry, you could just have said "gimmick alt" and i wouldn't have bothered to post.

As for helping the OP choose a skillpoint priority though... Rolling Eyes.



Lets see.

Me: A lot of reasons why the Basilisk is better.
Me: Citing thousands of fights as the sole logi in a small gang environment under heavy damage
You: The Basilisk can't fight solo and can't run even 3 RRs.
Me: I do it all the time with my mains, every day, for hours.
You: LOL gimmick alt
Me: ............ Wut?



every day for hours? whats that corp ?? rent a pos repper or what?
btw i would like to join,those low sec noobing sounds good to give it a try ,inv me pls :P

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.06.22 21:26:00 - [20]
 

For true nano gangs, Scimitar.

For shield 'gank' fleets, Basilisk.

Julien Brellier
Posted - 2011.06.22 21:32:00 - [21]
 

If you only have a single logisics ship, then Scimi. Faster, cap stable and smaller sig radius. Really really good for small gangs.

In a big fleet, you'll want a small squadron of Basilisks running a cap transfer chain and spider tanking each other as well as providing huge boosts to friendly ships.

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.22 23:25:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Noisrevbus
Originally by: Liang Nuren

I fly a Basilisk every night that active tanks 1000+ DPS and permaruns 5 RRs. I've repped my gang mates vs a Vindicator and tanked a Hyperion, Dominix, Hurricane, Cyclone, and sentry guns simultaneously. This is something the Scimitar literally cannot do. You're doing it wrong.


Oh i'm sorry, you could just have said "gimmick alt" and i wouldn't have bothered to post.

As for helping the OP choose a skillpoint priority though... Rolling Eyes.



Lets see.

Me: A lot of reasons why the Basilisk is better.
Me: Citing thousands of fights as the sole logi in a small gang environment under heavy damage
You: The Basilisk can't fight solo and can't run even 3 RRs.
Me: I do it all the time with my mains, every day, for hours.
You: LOL gimmick alt
Me: ............ Wut?




Please post this Basilisk fit, I really like the Basi, but I really havent seen a fit that makes it even remotely a better choice than the Scimitar.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.06.23 05:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
every day for hours? whats that corp ?? rent a pos repper or what?
btw i would like to join,those low sec noobing sounds good to give it a try ,inv me pls :P


Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux [PFLUX]
War.Pigs.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.23 09:19:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Rastigan
Please post this Basilisk fit, I really like the Basi, but I really havent seen a fit that makes it even remotely a better choice than the Scimitar.


[Basilisk, Solo Basilisk]
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I

10MN Afterburner II
Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Improved Cloaking Device II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Hornet EC-300 x5

Comments on the fit:
- Yes, its a loot pinata. No, IDGAF. I've got replacements ready to go if I should lose one.
- The cloak is so we can actually get fights. Nobody wants to fight when they know you have a logi in system. This is a MAJOR advantage over the Scimitar. I could potentially fit a smartbomb there for clearing drones, but quite often I'm tied to zero of a gate and that'd be pretty useless. The cloak is a better choice.
- The 5th shield rep can be an energy transfer. I've flown this paired with another Basilisk and it was pretty hilarious. Honestly, with that much repping (local+remote) its almost a matter of shield buffer more than DPS tanked. Laughing
- People will occasionally primary the lone Basilisk on the assumption that it doesn't have a cap partner and is therefore useless. This makes for lol-****ing-tastic moments. Laughing

On the last mid (cap booster in this fit):
- A Cap Booster makes the most cap sense if you're expecting to face neuts... but frankly neuts strong enough to really affect the fight are kinda uncommon. But, this does give you some cap in case you're heavily neuted.
- A SBA or EM Hardner gives you a WTFHUGE tank, though the SBA is generally more useful because most people don't bring EM damage and its capless. Frankly, the tank is already WTFHUGE so this is kinda a non-issue.
- An ECCM makes tons of sense if you're expecting to see lots of jamming on the field. I've been jammed out before, but its far less common than you might think. The biggest danger is obviously ECM drones.
- A Cap Recharger is my preferred thing to fit there. It really helps with longer roams (40+ jumps each way) where we take sentry fire pretty much the whole time.

On the Scimitar:
- You can fit it in a similar way, but I'd recommend 3 PDU IIs and a TS PDU in the lows.
- The same "last mid" discussion applies as above, though I suppose you could theoretically fit a tracking link as well.
- The Scim lacks the Energy Transfer/5th RR. I've lost a lot of ships because I couldn't transfer enough shield reps from a Scim.
- The Scim lacks the highs for a cloak. This means its harder to get fights, and that always sucks.

My overall review is that the Basilisk is a FAR superior logi to the Scim for small gang work, even as the sole logistics.

-Liang

NoNah
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:00:00 - [25]
 

mmh, high octane trollin in this one.

I won't discredit the basi in the slightest, but to say it's flat out better than the scimi is just silly, even for you. I'll happily go into more detail as soon as i have a proper browser.

Cuircuir Moustache
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:27:00 - [26]
 

In another post Liang teached the uneducated masses that Caldari was the way to go for small scale PVP in T1 ships.(too lazy to link). Today we learn that Basilisk outperforms Scimi in every possible way.
Makes me wonder if there's some kind of conspiracy behind that, aiming at getting a nerf for Calda and / or a Minnie buff.
What will we learn tomorrow ? Maybe that the Phoenix is a better POS repper than the Hel. Who knows.

NoNah
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:01:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Comments on the fit:
- Yes, its a loot pinata. No, IDGAF. I've got replacements ready to go if I should lose one.


Expensive fittings are bad when the added isk yields very little in terms of added use. How much isk or replacements you have is completely irrelevant, unless you need to downgrade due to being on a budget. I don't fit estamel invulns on my t1 frigs not because I couldn't sustain it for a while, but because there's very little point in doing so and the cost is high.
Quote:

- The cloak is so we can actually get fights. Nobody wants to fight when they know you have a logi in system. This is a MAJOR advantage over the Scimitar. I could potentially fit a smartbomb there for clearing drones, but quite often I'm tied to zero of a gate and that'd be pretty useless. The cloak is a better choice.


Guess it's just a mindset thing. You could just aswell force them to fight, fight them while outnumbered, log the logis into the fight, bridge them ontop of the fight or whatever. Sure it's an advantage, but due to it's situational nature I certainly wouldn't call it major. Most of the fights I get - with logis or without - are because the opponents expect to beat us in advance AND during the fight.
Quote:

- The 5th shield rep can be an energy transfer. I've flown this paired with another Basilisk and it was pretty hilarious. Honestly, with that much repping (local+remote) its almost a matter of shield buffer more than DPS tanked. Laughing


Hands down agree. Basilisks are better in pairs than scimis are in pairs(with few exceptions)
Quote:

- People will occasionally primary the lone Basilisk on the assumption that it doesn't have a cap partner and is therefore useless. This makes for lol-****ing-tastic moments. Laughing


Sadly, your tank isn't that impressive. At all.

Quote:

On the last mid (cap booster in this fit):
- A Cap Booster makes the most cap sense if you're expecting to face neuts... but frankly neuts strong enough to really affect the fight are kinda uncommon. But, this does give you some cap in case you're heavily neuted.


Granted, you need to keep it running just to have your transfers working. And as you more or less need to hang around the gate or station(which makes the ec-300's ironic) to gtfo once they've neuted you out or call you primary.
Quote:

- A SBA or EM Hardner gives you a WTFHUGE tank, though the SBA is generally more useful because most people don't bring EM damage and its capless. Frankly, the tank is already WTFHUGE so this is kinda a non-issue.


You and I have WTFDIFFERENT definitions of WTFHUGE.
Quote:

- An ECCM makes tons of sense if you're expecting to see lots of jamming on the field. I've been jammed out before, but its far less common than you might think. The biggest danger is obviously ECM drones.


Agreed, it's an enviromental thing. Some areas of eve have a lot of ecm, some don't. I happen to live in a ECM-tight area and well...
Quote:

- A Cap Recharger is my preferred thing to fit there. It really helps with longer roams (40+ jumps each way) where we take sentry fire pretty much the whole time.


Never quite had the issue. If it's a long roam, send an alt and carrierjump or titanbridge your stuff.


Ran out of room to comment on the scimitar things, but they're mostly a reiteration of previous statements so vOv.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

I fly a Basilisk every night that active tanks 1000+ DPS and permaruns 5 RRs.


Just FYI Liang, I think that this is the Basilisk fit that people wanted to see, not the one that you just posted.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:56:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Liang Nuren

I fly a Basilisk every night that active tanks 1000+ DPS and permaruns 5 RRs.


Just FYI Liang, I think that this is the Basilisk fit that people wanted to see, not the one that you just posted.


I think he was making questionable estimates based on signature tanking. But considering that this has a sustained DPS tank of 325.4 relative to the static 352 trackingless DPS of sentry fire...
...well, I'm not particularly impressed. Rolling Eyes

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:35:00 - [30]
 

Well, with strong Blue Pill, full Crystals, a maxed Tengu and overloading it can hit 1000 DPS tanked. But generally people specify these conditions.


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