open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Scanning change they "forgot" to mention?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]

Author Topic

w0rmy
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:09:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas

Well, I coded it, so I'm pretty sure I know it rather intimately. Rolling Eyes



Sweet, wont take you long to fix it then.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:53:00 - [182]
 

I am a bit concerned about not releasing info that the scan system is changing in advance. I mean how are we supposed to be able to give feedback and bug reports about if we don't know about it.

Or are you so sure that it doesn't contain any bugs or unconsidered side consequences that it didn't need player testing on sisi? Considering past CCP performance that's a very gutsy stance to take.

I took part of the testing process of the 2 last scan changes and both of those got some fundamental and important changes pre release based feedback on by me and others.

We don't need formulas, we can figure out those ourselves (a few hint are of course welcome, specially since we didn't get any advance warning) but we do need time to figure out the intended and unintended consequences of this change.

Dnai Hsrang
Caldari
Cardinal Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.24 20:00:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Dnai Hsrang on 24/06/2011 20:55:57
@CCP Veritas ... Any chance you will bring back the ability to click on a signal before it is 100% and have the "cursor" on it. I used to be able to have a square around the signal I was working that was visible without probes on top of it. This was a nice feature.

edit: typo

Marketing Weasel
Posted - 2011.06.25 20:10:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas

All the old ideas are still correct - get probes out, surround your target with them, narrow in from there. Just use more than four probes cause probe 5 and above help now.

That the formula pumping the numbers changed doesn't mean the guiding principals changed.


Great, you f***wad
So tell me, with maxed skills can one still cover two gates with 4 probes each and get hits on frigates in the first go (i.e. maybe even before they warp)?
Or did you CCP buttclowns only consider scanning one ship at a time, because hey, none of you have any idea how this game is actually played anyway?

All the rage with this release isn't the price of monocles, because tbh nobody give a f*** about hello kitty trinkets anyway.
Its getting to the last straw with CCP incompetence, failure to consult (and value the opinion of) the player base, CCP being dishonest and scheming and manipulative.
We're bittervets because CCP KEEPS F***ING UP THE GAME!

Enough; Unsubscribe.

Anna Maziarczyk
Posted - 2011.06.25 20:18:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Skippermonkey
tbh, i dont even know why they changed scanning, it was runnign farily well as it was.


I suppose I can let that reason be known. I'm a performance guy; I fix lag. My interest in changing scanning is purely because it needed to be changed for technical reasons.

The old algorithm was horrifically inefficient at scale. There was no way I could fix the scaling without changing the behavior of it, so I wrote them ground-up to be scalable while keeping the original design goals intact.


tl:dr The new $20 NEX Probes need to be better than free probes. So we made it more granular.

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.25 20:45:00 - [186]
 

So as far as combat scanning goes not much has changed for me. Using my Falcon I am still able to get cruisers and up pretty easy with 4 probes.

Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2011.06.26 11:49:00 - [187]
 

I've been playing with the core probes the last few days... using more probes (8 if possible) seems to put things back to how they were before, but you do seem to need to use smaller radius probes to get the "type" of signature than you did before... which is a real pain if you are sweeping a virgin wspace system with tens of signatures for only wormholes.

So two requests really:

1 can you put the autolaunch toggle option back in for probe launchers, so you don't have to manually launch 8 probes every time? it made sense taking it out when we only needed a couple of probes, but we pretty much need a full magazine of them each time now.

2 can someone have a look at the thresholds for giving the signature type back given the new mechanics?


April101976
Posted - 2011.06.26 17:31:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: daddys helper
Originally by: CCP Veritas
They changed...a lot. We never released the details of the old formulas, I don't see any reason to change that. Consider it a fun puzzle, like sorting out quantum mechanics. Smile


so you're saying you have no idea either


Well, I coded it, so I'm pretty sure I know it rather intimately. Rolling Eyes
,

With respect CCP Veritas,

With the current mood ofthe Eve base do you think it is a time for coy bull@$#%?

Ginny Xuun
Posted - 2011.06.26 17:38:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Shpenat
Thank you CCP Veritas for being so open with the community. So far you appear to be the only dev to give some answers. Kudos to you.

^

Maldad Asesino
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:39:00 - [190]
 

Scanning seems broken to me.

Im using 7 probes, conventional 5 4+1center and then 1 above and 1 below the center.

my results are radically crappy, before i could scan down ships with ease and I really enjoyed scanning in general (ninja salvager) But now I'm finding it hard as hell to get battleship filter sigs narrowed down at all..

Also I saw someone suggesting sister equipment to the noobs in the rookie help channel lol.

Fractal Muse
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:11:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: April101976

With respect CCP Veritas,

With the current mood ofthe Eve base do you think it is a time for coy bull@$#%?


Oh don't be a bad pony!

CCP Veritas helped out and responded a fair bit in this thread. If -all- CCP posters did what he did then the current mood wouldn't exist.

Give credit where credit is due.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:22:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Rek Seven
Originally by: Frau Klaps

I've done extensive testing on this and while I've got single target probing down fine, I am not so happy that I can no longer use my 8 probes to plonk 4 on two different locations (usually gates) in order to get intel and warp-ins as required. This functionality has essentially been lost.

The deep space probe nerf was a pain in the butt but necessary, this new change removes techniques that worked before because you have to use more than 4 probes to get a good result (6 seems to be the best number to bet on). I WANT MORE PROBES TO PLAY WITH THANKS :P 12 would be nice so I can carry on with my playstyle.


Excellent point. Seems like they should now limit the scan contribution to 8 probes and raise the maximum amount for probes in space to 16...

Very Happy
what have we (0.0 sov citizens) got after JB network got destroyed? Nothing. Except unnecessary effort to restore it.

So i don't support this product and/or service Very Happy

Quinn Diaz
DON'T DO IT DAD
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:53:00 - [193]
 

Scanning being hard? I'm really sorry because I really don't want to act an elitist jerk.

HOWEVER. After living in a wormhole for about a year, spending a great deal of time scanning every day, and observing (stalking) other people, using my d-scan to see how they scan, where they place their probes and how fast they narrow down a signature. I must say that 90% of the players I see are totally worthless.

I know that practice makes perfect, but when you see other people living in wormholes, having done so even longer than myself, I get scared when they take 5 minutes probing a signature I got a 100% hit on in less than 1.

There are so many tricks a knowing player can use to his advantage while probing, unfortunately the average joe is not interrested in learning, but rather stay bad.

Runnin Through
Posted - 2011.06.27 14:02:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Marketing Weasel

All the rage with this release isn't the price of monocles, because tbh nobody give a f*** about hello kitty trinkets anyway.
Its getting to the last straw with CCP incompetence, failure to consult (and value the opinion of) the player base, CCP being dishonest and scheming and manipulative.



Thank you! People hardly mention this, and i belive the "anti-protest" ones just don't get it that its not about thoose damn manacles.

+1

Thallus Tage
Posted - 2011.06.27 14:03:00 - [195]
 

But were you looking at your scan results through a Monocle?

Ana Vyr
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.27 14:45:00 - [196]
 

Thanks Veritas! I appreciate the input.

This thread has the look and feeel of an old school CCP thread. Bit of back and forth, some solid information from development, some input from the dedicated scanners. I wish we could get back to this sort of thing across the board.

Sujanra Acoma
Minmatar
Shadow Kitty Legion
Rura-Penthe
Posted - 2011.06.27 14:59:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Ugh.

Well, time to stop scanning for a few weeks (months) until some other brave people figure it out and write a new guide.


Well that's a bit melodramatic don't you think?

All the old ideas are still correct - get probes out, surround your target with them, narrow in from there. Just use more than four probes cause probe 5 and above help now.

That the formula pumping the numbers changed doesn't mean the guiding principals changed.


EVE players? Melodramatic? No!

MisterAl tt1
Posted - 2011.07.07 12:46:00 - [198]
 

I didn't scan for some time, but people say, that after one of the last small patches scanning has become easier again. The first idea was, that skills and implants started working as they should.

However, the signal strength I get from a single probe on top of the signature didn't change. Maybe it is just a limit, so it did not rise with the fix?

Any ideas?

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.07 12:57:00 - [199]
 

For what it's worth in contributing to this thread, I've always used six combat probes set up like this: 5 probes at a certain range, for example 16AU set up with one in the center and four covering the cardinal points (N,S,E,W) and the sixth also in the center one range smaller (8AU for this example). I've actually noticed a slight improvement in scanning strength (or course due to all six probes counting). When scanning an A239 hole, I used to have to have all probes at minimum distance, then take the two center probes and move them above and below the hole to hit 100%. Now the probes at minimum scan to 100 without needing to tweak the positioning of the center probes.

I use combats because you never know when that uninvited ship may appear in your hole...

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.07 13:15:00 - [200]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 07/07/2011 13:30:23

EDIT: Quote Fail

The changes were listed in the patch notes; you just need to know how to make inferences. I also believe that these following few posts deserve a bump.

Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: BeanBagKing
Wait, what? They didn't convey a change in formula at all, there was no "not very well" about it.


That's not entirely true. The second I read that more than four probes would contribute to the scan results I set out to find the new formula. That was a more fundamental change than many people are aware.

Originally by: BeanBagKing
So now that this has been noticed, instead of just posting "oh yea, woops" mind telling us how they changed?


I doubt they will. They never released a single scanning formula. You'll have to wait until it is reverse engineered by players (i'm on it), as it happened with the previous formula. Only last time we were forewarned that scanning changes were coming, so we reverse engineered it on SISI and were able to post it as soon as apochrypha was released. This time I wasn't aware of the change, so gotta take a little time.


Originally by: CCP Veritas

They changed...a lot. We never released the details of the old formulas, I don't see any reason to change that. Consider it a fun puzzle, like sorting out quantum mechanics. Smile


Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer

As an explorer I say: Thanks!

I don't log in for an easy game. Never knew or cared for the formula anyway and exploration was getting too easy for the nooblings. That other game that gives quick gratification for little effort is always taking new subscribers so if anybody does not like it, contract your stuff to me.

Exploration got harder. Period. So there is no more un-scannable T3 but now it's not just any zit-popping griefer who will be able to scan one down. The phat loot sites that were originally hard to scan may well have gotten harder. So not just any monkey with 4 probes and lvl 4 in everything with a cheap launcher is going to get it.

Nothing here is departing from the concepts of the game: nobody is having an "I WIN" button, and rewards are not coming cheaper either. All good.



Originally by: Space Wanderer

Frankly, I find most of the replies in this thread disgusting.

When apochrypha came out there were many threads out there trying to find out the ins and outs of probing. The usual quota of "it's too hard!" (sic! Rolling Eyes) was there but most of the people were trying to understand the new mechanics and it was a really fun discussion.

What do I see now? A single thread full of self-styled "explorers", some of them not even knowing the basics of the old scan formula, and crying to be spoonfed. In the middle of that, few voices that actually try to exchange information, drowned in the noise of people shouting "gimmegimmegimme".

I am seriously tempted to not write down the formula even if I mamage to derive it. But after all I am pretty sure that most of those who didn't bother to learn the previous the previous formula will bother even less with the new one (it's more complex) so it's probably not an issue.

Still CCP, I agree with those who say that this is your fault. You spoonfeed people, and then you are surprised when they shout "gimme" at every occasion?


Thank you for your time Space Wanderer and CCP Veritas.


Slade


Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.07 13:31:00 - [201]
 

Oh, for fvck's sake! You already got your unprobability nerf. Work a little for your money, you lousy bum!

LOL. You lazy pirates are too much!

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.07 13:33:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
For what it's worth in contributing to this thread, I've always used six combat probes set up like this: 5 probes at a certain range, for example 16AU set up with one in the center and four covering the cardinal points (N,S,E,W) and the sixth also in the center one range smaller (8AU for this example). I've actually noticed a slight improvement in scanning strength (or course due to all six probes counting). When scanning an A239 hole, I used to have to have all probes at minimum distance, then take the two center probes and move them above and below the hole to hit 100%. Now the probes at minimum scan to 100 without needing to tweak the positioning of the center probes.

I use combats because you never know when that uninvited ship may appear in your hole...


If you were using more than 4 probes before the Incarna change, you should notice improvements. If you were only using 4 probes before Incarna you should notice a degradation. The new algorithm takes into account all probes being used whereas the old algorithm only used the best 4 probes regardless of how many you used.

With this new change it is advantageous to use as many probes as your skills allow since they now all contribute to the sig strength of the target being probed.

Jake Holden
Posted - 2011.07.07 13:38:00 - [203]
 

Still being able to probe everything in nullsec using 4+1 probes. All level 4 skills, covert ops frigate, normal launcher normal probes.

Not seeing the issue here :>

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.07 13:40:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Jake Holden
Still being able to probe everything in nullsec using 4+1 probes. All level 4 skills, covert ops frigate, normal launcher normal probes.

Not seeing the issue here :>


And you're not seeing the improvements of using every probe you can. I'm getting a lot more incidental results which is good because that means I don't have to probe out every sig. Your loss.


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only