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Jon Whayne
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:13:00 - [151]
 

Hello folks,

I do scan since I play EVE. Oh, and I love it. Without this postings I wouldn't even have noticed a difference, which is a funny thing. I always scanned with 5 probes, dunno why. Now, with 5 probes out I get the same results from WHs, DED-Plexes, Magnos, Gravis and all the other stuff out there. So for me, practically, nothing has changed.

Just my 2 cents :)

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:14:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Skippermonkey
tbh, i dont even know why they changed scanning, it was runnign farily well as it was.

All they've done is nerf the scan res of each probe or something and turned it into an even more clickfest.

GIVE US PROBE FORMATIONS AND ILL FORGIVE YOU CCP


Well I will admit this does make Astro V viable again and I have to give CCP Veritas credit for that. However yes we do need things like preset formations that close and open on themselves with a key combo to make this less of a clickfest for two reasons.

A) The current system has issues with pointer depth detection and it gets more severe with lack of FPS. Meaning those who can run with Interval to immediate and now overheat their GPU have a gameplay advantage over those that don't.

B) Even with good FPS it becomes extremely difficult to work the probes in a small space and this can be affected by monitor size.

Rek Seven
Gallente
Zandathorn Industries
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:15:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 10:22:24
Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 10:21:45
Originally by: CCP Veritas

Team BFF did that in one of their recent releases. Control-drag will change your world man.


Yes this was an awesome change. Smile

There is no need for any formation presets thanks to this and the alt drag feature.

However, can you ask team BFF to add a button to centre the camera on a individual probe? the camera messes up when you exit and re-enter the solar system map.

Also, if you would be so kind as to explain, why do signature id's change after DT? It makes scanning for WH dwellers tedious.

MisterAl tt1
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:16:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: MisterAl tt1 on 24/06/2011 10:23:11
Seems like I have to appologise to Veritas for being very persistent. I'm sorry.

Well, the idea that redundant probes does not contribute is clear. Then, may we assume that for probes on the same horyzon the signal over some point is considered "not valid" and thus to get a better signal strenght we need to either put probes closer with smaller radius, or move some probes up and down?

This would explain my screenshots.

Or, in other words: central square have got the maximum of what probes of a given radius can have being on the same horyzon, and thus outer square did not give a 1% raise.

Angst IronShard
Minmatar
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:21:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Angst IronShard on 24/06/2011 10:22:24
We really need a devblog on the new probing system.
I found the probing system is one step harder than before.
I use 5 probes. Before and still now
ie.
1 on the signal (4AU range)
and 4 (8AU range)in square around the smaller probe.
And I diminish the probes ranges as long as I get a stronger signal.

I live in WH so I spent much time probing.
For the same type of signature said D364 wormhole (our static) :
- Before patch I found it with my 4 probes at 1AU range and the center probe at 0.5AU range.
- Now I need to set down all my 5 probes to 0.25AU range to get the 100% signal

However tt's still possible with my skills to probe all signals, but I see a probing nerf instead of a ship's balance !


CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.06.24 10:22:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: MisterAl tt1
Seems like I have to appologise to Veritas for being very persistent. I'm sorry.

Well, the idea that redundant probes does not contribute is clear. Then, may we assume that for probes on the same horyzon the signal over some point is considered "not valid" and thus to get a better signal strenght we need to either put probes closer with smaller radius, or move some probes up and down?

This would explain my screenshots.


Yes, you're on the right track. Essentially the large-radius probes aren't telling your scanning computer anything that the smaller-radius probes didn't already know.

If you brought them down to the same radius as the small-radius probes and in to the same distance from the target, they would be contributing. They would contribute even more if moved further away from the existing probes (up and down, in your case).

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:23:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Skippermonkey
tbh, i dont even know why they changed scanning, it was runnign farily well as it was.


I suppose I can let that reason be known. I'm a performance guy; I fix lag. My interest in changing scanning is purely because it needed to be changed for technical reasons.

The old algorithm was horrifically inefficient at scale. There was no way I could fix the scaling without changing the behavior of it, so I wrote them ground-up to be scalable while keeping the original design goals intact.


I am surprised you were not given a dev blog to explain this. A bit off topic but the similar late in coming out with intentions and reasons is why there is a 50+ Page topic above this.

As long as you are willing to hear us out and fix any bits of issues we can expose I accept the changes and I hope you and the other members of CCP will continue to be open with the community and allow us to help make EVE the amazing MMO it is today.


Originally by: MisterAl tt1
Seems like I have to appologise to Veritas for being very persistent. I'm sorry.

Well, the idea that redundant probes does not contribute is clear. Then, may we assume that for probes on the same horyzon the signal over some point is considered "not valid" and thus to get a better signal strenght we need to either put probes closer with smaller radius, or move some probes up and down?

This would explain my screenshots.


Closer to the target ought to mean better results no? Regardless of orientation unless I continue to fail to understand the new system.

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Zachstar
Once you get that working may I request a feature then? Have you noticed Veritas that it is becoming even more of a clickfest? Is there a way you can make it where all probes can close in or widen on themselves by some key combo? Such as how shift click moves all in direction I request them to move in as this becomes quite the issue when dealing with the tiny tiny spaces after 0.25


Team BFF did that in one of their recent releases. Control-drag will change your world man.


I am epic fail. Embarassed Sorry about that and thanks for the heads up as that will save ALOT of time.

Still probe formations pretty please? Very Happy

Rek Seven
Gallente
Zandathorn Industries
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:25:00 - [158]
 

CCP Veritas,

Can you post a screen shot of the ideal probe positioning in relation to a sig pleas?

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:26:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: MisterAl tt1
Seems like I have to appologise to Veritas for being very persistent. I'm sorry.

Well, the idea that redundant probes does not contribute is clear. Then, may we assume that for probes on the same horyzon the signal over some point is considered "not valid" and thus to get a better signal strenght we need to either put probes closer with smaller radius, or move some probes up and down?

This would explain my screenshots.


Yes, you're on the right track. Essentially the large-radius probes aren't telling your scanning computer anything that the smaller-radius probes didn't already know.

If you brought them down to the same radius as the small-radius probes and in to the same distance from the target, they would be contributing. They would contribute even more if moved further away from the existing probes (up and down, in your case).


I am getting a picture of what the confusion was all about this. When done right it looks almost exactly like the best 4 system except with smaller signature. That is what caused the firestorm. A bit of bad luck and otherwise indeed it would have been good fun to let us figure it out.

After downtime I will spend more time getting used to this new system.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:27:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 24/06/2011 11:27:48



-deleted by me. pointlessly argumentative-

Frau Klaps
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:30:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Before the patch, scanning results were based on the best 4 hits for any given target. When tracking down something in particular, having 4 out in a good configuration was the best you could do.

Now the best you can do is having 8 out in a good configuration. It's balanced roughly so that 6-or-so is about the same as 4 used to be. So...assuming you set your 7 up to give good coverage of the target, you'll probably be getting better results than you used to. Training up so you can launch 8 would make them even better.


I've done extensive testing on this and while I've got single target probing down fine, I am not so happy that I can no longer use my 8 probes to plonk 4 on two different locations (usually gates) in order to get intel and warp-ins as required. This functionality has essentially been lost.

The deep space probe nerf was a pain in the butt but necessary, this new change removes techniques that worked before because you have to use more than 4 probes to get a good result (6 seems to be the best number to bet on). I WANT MORE PROBES TO PLAY WITH THANKS :P 12 would be nice so I can carry on with my playstyle.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:30:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Rage Spear

CCP have never explained the detailed numbers behind the game: missile damage, gun tracking, exploration etc. All those guides you use instead of thinking for yourselves were written by other players...if you can't figure it out just wait and maybe someone cleverer than you will write it down and let you read it. or maybe not Wink


I agree CCP has always done it this way, however, that has always been a fundamentally dumb way of doing it. CCP's viewing of a lack of documentation as being somehow virtuous is inane. It serves no positive function, except in assisting some of its dimmer customers feel superior to the customers of other games, presumably for their ability to tolerate poor quality and their willingness to do work creating documentation that really someone should have been paid for. It's not really a feature. It's just being lazy. Fanboys like to believe it's a feature, because fanboys are dumb, and eager for anything that can differentiate GAME X from their hated rival, GAME Y.

However, I tolerated it because hey, this is just a fun little game run by a crazy little studio called CCP, no biggie. But now CCP wants to play with the big boys and turn this game into a subscription + (coming soon) pay to win model. With that, CCP and EVE Online stopped being a fun little community I could imagine myself as being part of, and started being just another faceless corporation that provided services in exchange for money. And if that's how it is, then frankly, the bar for quality expected has risen dramatically.


Can you please keep the MT firestorm in the proper topic? A CCP dev is taking time out to explain a change that is causing issues. You know what we have been ASKING them to do all day yesterday?

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:34:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Frau Klaps
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Before the patch, scanning results were based on the best 4 hits for any given target. When tracking down something in particular, having 4 out in a good configuration was the best you could do.

Now the best you can do is having 8 out in a good configuration. It's balanced roughly so that 6-or-so is about the same as 4 used to be. So...assuming you set your 7 up to give good coverage of the target, you'll probably be getting better results than you used to. Training up so you can launch 8 would make them even better.


I've done extensive testing on this and while I've got single target probing down fine, I am not so happy that I can no longer use my 8 probes to plonk 4 on two different locations (usually gates) in order to get intel and warp-ins as required. This functionality has essentially been lost.

The deep space probe nerf was a pain in the butt but necessary, this new change removes techniques that worked before because you have to use more than 4 probes to get a good result (6 seems to be the best number to bet on). I WANT MORE PROBES TO PLAY WITH THANKS :P 12 would be nice so I can carry on with my playstyle.


Perhaps a middle ground to restore this and to put more incentive for training perhaps Astro V can jump in probe amount to 12?

Or? A sub middle ground could be a preset pattern so that an experienced prober can quickly move it to track down another target?

Rek Seven
Gallente
Zandathorn Industries
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:35:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Frau Klaps

I've done extensive testing on this and while I've got single target probing down fine, I am not so happy that I can no longer use my 8 probes to plonk 4 on two different locations (usually gates) in order to get intel and warp-ins as required. This functionality has essentially been lost.

The deep space probe nerf was a pain in the butt but necessary, this new change removes techniques that worked before because you have to use more than 4 probes to get a good result (6 seems to be the best number to bet on). I WANT MORE PROBES TO PLAY WITH THANKS :P 12 would be nice so I can carry on with my playstyle.


Excellent point. Seems like they should now limit the scan contribution to 8 probes and raise the maximum amount for probes in space to 16...

Arista Shahni
Amarr
Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:38:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Arista Shahni on 24/06/2011 10:37:51
Originally by: CCP Veritas


Yes, you're on the right track. Essentially the large-radius probes aren't telling your scanning computer anything that the smaller-radius probes didn't already know.

If you brought them down to the same radius as the small-radius probes and in to the same distance from the target, they would be contributing. They would contribute even more if moved further away from the existing probes (up and down, in your case).


Thank you, a complete noob to probing and EVE is assisted. :D

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:42:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Zachstar
Once you get that working may I request a feature then? Have you noticed Veritas that it is becoming even more of a clickfest? Is there a way you can make it where all probes can close in or widen on themselves by some key combo? Such as how shift click moves all in direction I request them to move in as this becomes quite the issue when dealing with the tiny tiny spaces after 0.25


Team BFF did that in one of their recent releases. Control-drag will change your world man.


Side question and being completely noob here. Do I hold control and click to move a probe to move them all in and out at the same time? I am likely confused but that isn't working for me.

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.06.24 10:45:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Zachstar
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Zachstar
Once you get that working may I request a feature then? Have you noticed Veritas that it is becoming even more of a clickfest? Is there a way you can make it where all probes can close in or widen on themselves by some key combo? Such as how shift click moves all in direction I request them to move in as this becomes quite the issue when dealing with the tiny tiny spaces after 0.25


Team BFF did that in one of their recent releases. Control-drag will change your world man.


Side question and being completely noob here. Do I hold control and click to move a probe to move them all in and out at the same time? I am likely confused but that isn't working for me.


The caffeine hadn't set in yet. It's Alt, not control. Embarassed

Orion TashMurkon
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:45:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Orion TashMurkon on 24/06/2011 10:45:29
gahh the more i think about, the angrier it makes me.

when i read the patch notes it sounded like we could scan with one probe! now we must use 8!

grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Rek Seven
Gallente
Zandathorn Industries
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:47:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 10:48:35
Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 10:47:55
Originally by: Zachstar
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Zachstar
Once you get that working may I request a feature then? Have you noticed Veritas that it is becoming even more of a clickfest? Is there a way you can make it where all probes can close in or widen on themselves by some key combo? Such as how shift click moves all in direction I request them to move in as this becomes quite the issue when dealing with the tiny tiny spaces after 0.25


Team BFF did that in one of their recent releases. Control-drag will change your world man.





no Ctrl does nothing. You hold shift to move all probes at once and use use alt to move probes towards/away from each other while retaining the same formation.

Side question and being completely noob here. Do I hold control and click to move a probe to move them all in and out at the same time? I am likely confused but that isn't working for me.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:47:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Zachstar
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Zachstar
Once you get that working may I request a feature then? Have you noticed Veritas that it is becoming even more of a clickfest? Is there a way you can make it where all probes can close in or widen on themselves by some key combo? Such as how shift click moves all in direction I request them to move in as this becomes quite the issue when dealing with the tiny tiny spaces after 0.25


Team BFF did that in one of their recent releases. Control-drag will change your world man.


Side question and being completely noob here. Do I hold control and click to move a probe to move them all in and out at the same time? I am likely confused but that isn't working for me.


The caffeine hadn't set in yet. It's Alt, not control. Embarassed


Oh how I know what lack of caffeine is like! No problem!

And WOW this is exactly what I needed! I was wondering how those probe guys suddenly got so effective. I take all my statements back as this is awesome!

MisterAl tt1
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:52:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: MisterAl tt1 on 24/06/2011 10:59:27
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Yes, you're on the right track. Essentially the large-radius probes aren't telling your scanning computer anything that the smaller-radius probes didn't already know.

If you brought them down to the same radius as the small-radius probes and in to the same distance from the target, they would be contributing. They would contribute even more if moved further away from the existing probes (up and down, in your case).
Thank you for the explanation. Now it makes sence.

Will run tests some time later, but for now it seems that just to move probes from the central square up and down will be enough to make all probes contribute.

Overall it gives to 3d formations more plusses then they used to have. Earlier it was enough to have all the probes in 2d, now even me would have to move some up and down.

PS. Forwarded this info to the eve-ru forums.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 10:53:00 - [172]
 

Actually I need to come out and fully apologize. The last few days have been a bit sore for the community with the leak and issues with Captains Quarters. I should have been more professional in my posts on this change. While my opinion is this info being out sooner could have helped I do understand the want to let the community find out about these new features if possible.

This kind of interacting with the community as much/soon as possible in my opinion will help prevent situations and out of control speculation from developing in the future. Yet we as a community do need to be more professional so that we can maintain this positive company/customer relationship that other MMOs could only dream of.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.24 11:04:00 - [173]
 

Went out and tested it right before downtime and with the Alt-Drag system and a good intial placement it is working SO much better than the old 2D system. Because now I can bring them closer without worrying about losing the contact because of vertical orientation.

It is a very fair tradeoff of signature for contribution and at the same time you made Astrometrics a viable skill to have again!

I do slightly agree that this slightly gives a disadvantage to those who used to be able to probe 2 spots at the same time. Tho I wonder if that was intended. Perhaps you can say?

MisterAl tt1
Posted - 2011.06.24 11:04:00 - [174]
 

People report that at least implant for the scan-time does not work.

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.06.24 11:06:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: MisterAl tt1
PS. Forwarded this info to the eve-ru forums.


Thank you very much for that. For my part, I'm going to get these ideas expressed in devblog form which'll get translated of course. I intended to have such a devblog ready for the release but I let other things take my attention instead. That's my fault.

Rek Seven
Gallente
Zandathorn Industries
Posted - 2011.06.24 11:12:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: MisterAl tt1
PS. Forwarded this info to the eve-ru forums.


Thank you very much for that. For my part, I'm going to get these ideas expressed in devblog form which'll get translated of course. I intended to have such a devblog ready for the release but I let other things take my attention instead. That's my fault.


Thanks again for taking the time to explain this change to us. The developer and player relationship is the second thing i like most about eve. Smile

I'm still waiting for you to post that scree shot though...

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.06.24 11:18:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Jaigar on 24/06/2011 11:23:27
Originally by: Splodger
What has changed is the displayed value of a signature, the signature itself is still the same size (to give anyone benefit of the doubt they may be slightly smaller). I cannot notice any difference scanning before with 4 probes and after patch. The value displayed has changed but inherently the signature itself hasnt changed, it still requires same number of passes to get to 100%

The difference now is that when using more than 4 probes is that any overlay in the total area coverage will now yield a higher signature strength of that signature/multiple signatures under coverage when using more than 4 probes. However when scanning to a smaller signature size using more than 4 probes will diminish the returns the closer you focus into the signature.

Multiple probes speeds up the triagulation and identification process but doesnt assist in the finale pinpointing of signatures below a certain threshold.

Logically this makes sense, but the patch notes arnt very clear and this is just my theory into the way CCP has modified the way they work.
__________________________
Wormhole Exploration Tool
Wormnav.com


Not entirely true. I was playing around with my cheetah yesterday, had someone stick 2 ECCM modules on their ship(another Cheetah). Anyways, with both ECCM modules running, I was able to get 62% scan strength about with 5 probes, dropped a 6th and got 68% (sisters combat @ .5 AU)

But something is funky. After he turned off his second ECCM and went from 71 to 39 about, there was very little change in probe strength.

Shpenat
Posted - 2011.06.24 11:24:00 - [178]
 

Thank you CCP Veritas for being so open with the community. So far you appear to be the only dev to give some answers. Kudos to you.

Ospie
Ransom and Kill
Core.Impulse
Posted - 2011.06.24 11:32:00 - [179]
 

Thanks for the support.

Etrad Tal
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:04:00 - [180]
 

Prior to the Incarna it was possible to scan in a C5 wormhole the outgoing H296 and incoming K162 with 7 probes if you had perfect scanning skills (incl. cov ops V), a cov ops, sisters launcher and sisters core probes the following way: One probe placed in the middle with 1 au radius and the remaining 6 placed one in every direction at 4 au radius so that in the middle all 7 probes overlap. With the deployment of incarna it isn't anymore possible to get 100% hits. You have to reduce the radius of the 6 corner probes to 2 au radius. That's a pretty big nerf in my opinion.


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