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MisterAl tt1
Posted - 2011.06.23 09:42:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Cataca

So instead of making cube shapes try a cross with only the very tips of the probes touching the sig.
Bad idea - the signal strenght depends on how far is the signature is from the probe. + deviation factor, doing it your way you will not be sure all the probes really touch the sig.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2011.06.23 09:48:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Gnorki Balanovski
Is there a thread with the formula for probing anywhere?


Yes, I wrote it when the new scan system came out, you can find it among the stickied resources in the Missions and Exploration forum.

However, despite the two scrawny lines in the patch notes and the non-alarmistic posts by devs, it seems that incarna has considerably altered the scan strength determination formula, thus all the scanning techniques you might have been used to are to be considered invalid (or at least uncertain).

I am currently back to the reverse engineering board trying to derive the new one (already got a lead). As soon as I have it I'll post it, in the same format as the previous formula.

Arista Shahni
Amarr
Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
Posted - 2011.06.23 10:03:00 - [33]
 

Buried under the screaming is http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1533408

CCP rep said to unload the scanner and re-load it (aka repack stuff). That cleared it up for me for the most part with my yuck noob scanning skills (4 Astrometrics, 3's in the subskills, rigged anathema, sisters, 2% implant, etc.)

I'm scanning with a slight lowering in ability to ID site type but before I unloaded the launcher I has major issues locking on anything.

And speaking of 8 probes, yah, not every one has 5s in all their skills.. :( Wish it was realized mroe often that the entire playerbase is not maxxed out veterans when these stealthnerfs go in..


Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.06.23 10:12:00 - [34]
 

I've noticed an increase in difficulty probing as well. I used to only use 4 probes. I had read about the change where each probe would contribute to the signal strength of the target. I assumed that was the reason things were a bit more difficult. So I started using 5 probes which makes it a bit easier.

However, I'm also reading people talking about damage mods and implants not working. So, I'm assuming that rigs and/or sister probe attributes and/or sister expanded probe launcher's attributes aren't contributing to signal strength.

For the time being I would suggest that if you're only using 4 probes then start using 5. Since I've added the 5th probe it seems to put me back at my effectiveness when probing before Incarna.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2011.06.23 10:18:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: MisterAl tt1
Edited by: MisterAl tt1 on 22/06/2011 07:08:24
I didn't check myself, but heard that you will still need a full Virtue set with perfect skills and hardwirings to scan that down.

The idea is that +4 probes contributing to scan was considered as "too easy" (which I agree) and thus 8 probes are now as good as 4 before. Now Astrometrics 5 has become a needed skill.

I think that for actual scanning that is not that evident, but for a single-probe signature check that is well-seen.

However, I would like such changes to BE listed in patchnotes.



Wrong. Tested and tried.

Yes, you will need some implants, but not the full virtue set.

If you don't have maxed out skills, you can compensate with implants and all that jazz.

MisterAl tt1
Posted - 2011.06.23 12:12:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Space Wanderer
However, despite the two scrawny lines in the patch notes and the non-alarmistic posts by devs, it seems that incarna has considerably altered the scan strength determination formula, thus all the scanning techniques you might have been used to are to be considered invalid (or at least uncertain).

I am currently back to the reverse engineering board trying to derive the new one (already got a lead). As soon as I have it I'll post it, in the same format as the previous formula.

Doesn't it look for you, that a base signal strengh has been devided in 2? I mean, what I now get with 32AU is very close to what I used to get with 64AU.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2011.06.23 14:26:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: MisterAl tt1
Doesn't it look for you, that a base signal strengh has been devided in 2?


It's not that simple, unfortunately, otherwise I would have already found the new formula. The base strength of the single probe is the same as it used to be (you can check it in the charge info slot of the fitting screen).

The problem is that the way it is used to derive the signal strength is drastically different, apparently non-linear in nature. Will take a little time to find out more.

AviendhaYasu
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:57:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Space Wanderer


It's not that simple, unfortunately, otherwise I would have already found the new formula. The base strength of the single probe is the same as it used to be (you can check it in the charge info slot of the fitting screen).

The problem is that the way it is used to derive the signal strength is drastically different, apparently non-linear in nature. Will take a little time to find out more.



I wish you luck in this endeavor, as I am also a bit confused by the scan changes.
I used to use a six-probe scan system, marking each face of a cube shape in space with each of my probes, and rarely if ever has this failed to scan down any signature within a range between 2 and 0.5 AU.
Obviously this is overkill, especially with a covert ops scan ship, but it's quick enough that I don't lose massive amounts of time when scanning.
The new system has made it easier to scan, however, particularly when using six or more probes, even in a T3 without massive scan bonuses like a Cov Ops.

If you need extra data, let me know, I scan regularly in a T3.

Ospie
Ransom and Kill
Core.Impulse
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:08:00 - [39]
 

Well, I feel that individual probe strength has been lowered somewhat. I don't have results from pre-Incarna to compare to, however it does feel less effective with 4 probes now than it previously did.

It does seem that now the system is far more finicky with how you try to set up the probes (I had more luck with 6 probes compared to 8 simply due to the 6 being easier to setup). I'm not entirely sure but I think that a badly setup probe or two can have a more negative result than a bonus, when I was trying to probe an alliance mates unprobable loki (running 4s on all probing skills, though astrometrics 5, +3% implant, rigged covops w/ covops 4 trained) I had more luck with 6 probes than 8, even with 6 probes a very slight position change of two of them resulting a massive jump from 27% hit to 68% hit (working at max zoom since it gets a bit tricky with 6 x .5 au probes).

Violet Vayu
Posted - 2011.06.23 18:33:00 - [40]
 

I agree they did break this too, formula change, they even wanted to include wormhole dwellers in the failure of this "expansion".

MisterAl tt1
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:39:00 - [41]
 

Got an answer for my bugrep.

Main points out of it:
- This is indeed a change in the scanning formula, which is by design
- a single probe results in a slightly lower signal strength
- the changes were incuded in pathcnotes, but without the details on the formula change

Well, so we'll be waiting for the results of the new research.

Orion TashMurkon
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:45:00 - [42]
 

spent some time scanning on a falcon earlier today with an expanded probe launcher and standard probs.

even with my high skills i couldn't pinpoint anything...

if before was tricky, now i find it impossible.. anyone tried without a covert ops and a sister launcher?

Confused

Darth Dreads
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:49:00 - [43]
 

I read this thread and looked at scanning and

Originally by: Dr Zuma
Turn it off.


AviendhaYasu
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:07:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Orion TashMurkon
spent some time scanning on a falcon earlier today with an expanded probe launcher and standard probs.

even with my high skills i couldn't pinpoint anything...

if before was tricky, now i find it impossible.. anyone tried without a covert ops and a sister launcher?

Confused


Like I was saying earlier, I scanned down a couple dozen signatures in a Loki with the probe subsystem. With Electronic subs at 4, 7 probes in space, no scanning rigs, and only passable scanning skills (most at 3, including pinpointing), I was able to scan out most signatures, albeit high sec signatures, within five to fifteen minutes depending on the difficulty of positioning.

Splodger
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:13:00 - [45]
 

What has changed is the displayed value of a signature, the signature itself is still the same size (to give anyone benefit of the doubt they may be slightly smaller). I cannot notice any difference scanning before with 4 probes and after patch. The value displayed has changed but inherently the signature itself hasnt changed, it still requires same number of passes to get to 100%

The difference now is that when using more than 4 probes is that any overlay in the total area coverage will now yield a higher signature strength of that signature/multiple signatures under coverage when using more than 4 probes. However when scanning to a smaller signature size using more than 4 probes will diminish the returns the closer you focus into the signature.

Multiple probes speeds up the triagulation and identification process but doesnt assist in the finale pinpointing of signatures below a certain threshold.

Logically this makes sense, but the patch notes arnt very clear and this is just my theory into the way CCP has modified the way they work.
__________________________
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AviendhaYasu
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:22:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Splodger
...
Multiple probes speeds up the triagulation and identification process but doesnt assist in the finale pinpointing of signatures below a certain threshold.
...



Technically, this would be a case of quadrangulation, would it not? Or hexangulation for us cube-form scanners, and septangulation or octangulation for those times when you just want to have you max probes in space.

In any case, I thought this was already the situation pre-patch, as the more points of reference one has to a particular object in space, the more accurately one can determine its true location.

So from what I'm understanding, this makes the scanning process more logical, as only allowing four points of reference to remain valid, even if more than those four are present, just seems gimpy to me.

Care Bear King
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:28:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Kuronaga
If you probing nerds can do me a quick favor -- how drastic was the "nerf" to unscannable T3 setups?

Is it actually possible to catch a T3 now, or is just lolpossible?
you need a character with all 5's on probing related skills, virtue+high grade hardwirings, full set of sisters mods, at the very least 6 probes and a bit of luck to manage to get the perfect alignment.
Please note that if you take your probing hobby seriously, an option to further invest in and maximize the enjoyment of your hobby will be available through the Nex this winter! Keep up the march toward excellence!

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:32:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 23/06/2011 20:32:48
Originally by: Ser Shondi
I'm getting the same problem. Before the patch I'd probe down 10/10s with 4 probes very easily. After the patch I had to use 5 to get to 100%


I have 5's in all my scanning skills and I always used 5 probes. I have noticed that it takes more work.


CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.06.23 20:34:00 - [49]
 

Hey there gents.

The scanning formulas changed fundamentally. My apologies that the patch notes didn't convey that very well.

Fellblade
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:35:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Fellblade on 23/06/2011 20:36:20
Please could we have some detail as to the manner in which it was changed? Thanks for replying to this topic.

Edit for grammar

Strider Hiryu
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:36:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Hey there gents.

The scanning formulas changed fundamentally. My apologies that the patch notes didn't convey that very well.


And us ladies.
Sexist Pig!

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:37:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Hey there gents.

The scanning formulas changed fundamentally. My apologies that the patch notes didn't convey that very well.


Wait, what? They didn't convey a change in formula at all, there was no "not very well" about it. So now that this has been noticed, instead of just posting "oh yea, woops" mind telling us how they changed? and why you would change them in the first place?

Palovana
Caldari
Inner Fire Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:38:00 - [53]
 

Monocle = 2x scanning strength.

Tajidan
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:38:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Hey there gents.

The scanning formulas changed fundamentally. My apologies that the patch notes didn't convey that very well.


Hello there dev.

Care to elaborate?

Rek Seven
Gallente
Zandathorn Industries
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:48:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Hey there gents.

The scanning formulas changed fundamentally. My apologies that the patch notes didn't convey that very well.


Well thanks you for finally confirming this but you really should warn people when you change game play mechanics in this way.

It took one of my friends, who is very new to the game, a full day to find his way out of a wormhole... I don't think he will be renewing his sub Sad

Ace Secunda
AQUILA INC
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:50:00 - [56]
 

When using 32 or 64AU probes initially it would seem strength has been halved with 4 probes but on getting down to 8au's and under with 4 it is the same as before the patch for me. this has not effected our scanning as it is still easy to pick out the size groupings from the half stength sigs.

Splodger
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:51:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: AviendhaYasu
Originally by: Splodger
...
Multiple probes speeds up the triagulation and identification process but doesnt assist in the finale pinpointing of signatures below a certain threshold.
...



Technically, this would be a case of quadrangulation, would it not? Or hexangulation for us cube-form scanners, and septangulation or octangulation for those times when you just want to have you max probes in space.

In any case, I thought this was already the situation pre-patch, as the more points of reference one has to a particular object in space, the more accurately one can determine its true location.

So from what I'm understanding, this makes the scanning process more logical, as only allowing four points of reference to remain valid, even if more than those four are present, just seems gimpy to me.


Well yes Quad would be more valid as long as you had 4 overlappying probes at minimum it would do it, having more does just increase the chances of getting the first hit. Yes id agree with you it does feel gimpy. But they say they have changed something although it feels trivial to me personally I didnt notice it but then again I just go into zombie mode when scanning, granted others are saying otherwise so we will have to wait for further details.
__________________________
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Wormnav.com

Gabriel Grimoire
Amarr
Ascendent.
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:51:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Hey there gents.

The scanning formulas changed fundamentally. My apologies that the patch notes didn't bother to mention that whatsoever.


Fixed.

Heitaro Kimura
Selectus Pravus Lupus
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:53:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Heitaro Kimura on 23/06/2011 20:52:58
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Hey there gents.

The scanning formulas changed fundamentally. My apologies that the patch notes didn't convey that very well.


By "didn't convey that very well", you mean "not at all"?

Quote:
Scanning
* It is no longer possible to set up a ship to be impervious to scanning while uncloaked.
* All probes can now contribute to a scan result, as opposed to the previous limit of four.

AviendhaYasu
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:53:00 - [60]
 

I'm surprised I'm haven't seen more of these panacean responses in the other "oh god wtf happened to EVE" threads.


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