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Arla Ten'sai
Posted - 2011.06.22 00:45:00 - [1]
 

So I was recently told that for PvP and maybe even PvE (low or high end), that missiles and railguns aren't too good especially railguns? And missiles are bad because of lag or something. So I am curious to know once and for all, are they really that bad or can I go ahead and start using them to the best ability or what? Thanks in advance.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.22 00:54:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 22/06/2011 00:54:40
Missiles are excellent for PVE. High Dmg long range and your choice of Damage Type. Missiles for PVE are a mixed bag really the main complant is that they are bad for fleet work but that is because flight time means less damage connects before the target is destroyed by Turret ships. For small Scale PVP ships like the HAM/Heavy Drake, Hookbill, Hawk, Torp Raven/Phoon, AML Caracal apply there dmg much faster in short range encounters.

For long range Fleet PVP this issue has been gotten around with all Missile Fleets. Drake/Cerberus Gangs with Heavy Missiles with Sheild Logi and Tackle have proven effective. Missile PVP is better then it has in a long while

For PVE Rail guns have low Dmg, can only deal 2 types, kin/thrm and the range is shorter then missiles. For PVP Lasers are higher Dmg then Rail Guns and Artillery puts out higher Alpha which is better for Destroying a Ship before it can be Repaired with Logistics. It is just a Sup Par Weapon in general.

Arla Ten'sai
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:14:00 - [3]
 

So if you're Caldari but want to use turres... are you stuck with.. using blasters or? So there's like no reason to use Railguns at all?

Glad to know that about missiles though hmm

Paikis
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:33:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Arla Ten'sai
So if you're Caldari but want to use turres... are you stuck with.. using blasters or? So there's like no reason to use Railguns at all?

Glad to know that about missiles though hmm



Sadly, most of the caldari gunboats end up using other race's turrets.

Merlin - often fit with rockets and auto-cannons
Moa - I've seen lasers and autocannons.
Ferox - I've seen lasers and autocannons.
Rokh - Artillery for sniping.

All of the above can use blasters or rails as well, but the most common 'bonus' for these ships is only to range, so who cares if you're using another race's guns, no damage bonus is lost.

Missiles work fine in PvP. Look around the forums and you'll quickly see massive numbers of QQ threads about DRAEKS, which use... *drum roll* ... Heavy missiles. Rockets are also VERY solid, as are pretty much all the other missile systems. The only 'bad' missiles are cruise missiles, because they don't do enough damage and can take up to 15 seconds to travel from launch to hit.

Arla Ten'sai
Posted - 2011.06.22 01:41:00 - [5]
 

I see... interesting you raise a good point about range... hmm... Very well thank you both :) I am happy with this. I wouldn't mind using someone elses guns I don't think.

grumpyguts1
Posted - 2011.06.22 02:21:00 - [6]
 

A Moa with blasters can do some great damage

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.06.22 04:27:00 - [7]
 

Quote:

All of the above can use blasters or rails as well, but the most common 'bonus' for these ships is only to range, so who cares if you're using another race's guns, no damage bonus is lost.



I don't get this. Range = damage. The bigger your optimal, the farther away they can get from you before your damage starts to negate. IMO, it's stupid to use any of those ships without hybrids, unless you specifically need the switchable damage types of ACs, or are flying in a straight alpha fleet. Others, a Rail Rokh can be great for sniping (longest range sniper in-game) and Moa/Ferox/Merlins with blasters can be great for close range brawls (they have enough range so that it isn't a disaster if something starts to inch away...)

Senkra Emran
Posted - 2011.06.22 07:26:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Roosterton
Quote:

All of the above can use blasters or rails as well, but the most common 'bonus' for these ships is only to range, so who cares if you're using another race's guns, no damage bonus is lost.



I don't get this. Range = damage. The bigger your optimal, the farther away they can get from you before your damage starts to negate. IMO, it's stupid to use any of those ships without hybrids, unless you specifically need the switchable damage types of ACs, or are flying in a straight alpha fleet. Others, a Rail Rokh can be great for sniping (longest range sniper in-game) and Moa/Ferox/Merlins with blasters can be great for close range brawls (they have enough range so that it isn't a disaster if something starts to inch away...)


You know that raises.. a good point actually I never thought about it... you can get quite a few shots off with some stuff before others do... but is it.. enough? How negative would it be to use autocannons or artillery on my caldari ships... hmm I mean.. I would love to use Railguns on my Rokh. That was my intention was sniping but. I dunno. Now I'm even more not sure what to do lol.. I like missiles don't get me wrong but I love the ships of Caldari and I want turrets with them :P but I usually hear railguns are suck. and then now I hear a good reason for range...

Jacob Stov
Posted - 2011.06.22 07:41:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Jacob Stov on 22/06/2011 07:41:26
Originally by: Roosterton
I don't get this. Range = damage. The bigger your optimal, the farther away they can get from you before your damage starts to negate. IMO, it's stupid to use any of those ships without hybrids, unless you specifically need the switchable damage types of ACs, or are flying in a straight alpha fleet. Others, a Rail Rokh can be great for sniping (longest range sniper in-game) and Moa/Ferox/Merlins with blasters can be great for close range brawls (they have enough range so that it isn't a disaster if something starts to inch away...)


Well, your logic doesn't apply to hybrid guns. Blasters have no optimal to speak of (so bonus wasted) and failguns do such abysmal damage, that switching to higher damage ammo compared to say lasers still gives you less damage. Add to that the utter fail that is called null.

vorneus
Posted - 2011.06.22 12:40:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: grumpyguts1
A Moa with blasters can do some great damage


Example? A Moa with 3 T2 Magstabs and a full rack of Neutron II's and faction ammo only does 401DPS.

That is very poor, and not to mention cripples the fit by fitting Neutrons. Can't imagine how you can say it "does some great damage".

-Ed

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.22 13:03:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Paikis
Originally by: Arla Ten'sai
So if you're Caldari but want to use turres... are you stuck with.. using blasters or? So there's like no reason to use Railguns at all?

Glad to know that about missiles though hmm



Sadly, most of the caldari gunboats end up using other race's turrets.

Merlin - often fit with rockets and auto-cannons
Moa - I've seen lasers and autocannons.
Ferox - I've seen lasers and autocannons.
Rokh - Artillery for sniping.

All of the above can use blasters or rails as well, but the most common 'bonus' for these ships is only to range, so who cares if you're using another race's guns, no damage bonus is lost.

Missiles work fine in PvP. Look around the forums and you'll quickly see massive numbers of QQ threads about DRAEKS, which use... *drum roll* ... Heavy missiles. Rockets are also VERY solid, as are pretty much all the other missile systems. The only 'bad' missiles are cruise missiles, because they don't do enough damage and can take up to 15 seconds to travel from launch to hit.


With good shield skills the Auto canons Ferox is deadly for sure.

Darryl Ward
Posted - 2011.06.22 15:25:00 - [12]
 

The problem with being a good sniper in PvP is that your enemy can just warp away. This makes sniping solo nearly impossible, you would have to alpha strike targets. Since you must be close to point someone, most people PvPing will expect to fight close. So, when your sniper ship is swarmed and pointed, and your guns can't track anything what will you do?

Missiles are not bad. The fact that it takes time for them to hit a target is a drawback, as is the low damage, but here's the real kicker: they don't miss if they are in range, and damage is somewhat constant. This does give you advantage over turret ships that must be in a certain range and fly a certain way to deal optimal damage.

Haulie Berry
Posted - 2011.06.22 15:36:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Roosterton
Quote:

All of the above can use blasters or rails as well, but the most common 'bonus' for these ships is only to range, so who cares if you're using another race's guns, no damage bonus is lost.



I don't get this. Range = damage. The bigger your optimal, the farther away they can get from you before your damage starts to negate.


This has the interesting trait of being both technically true and largely irrelevant (from a practical/application standpoint) for the purposes of PvP.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.22 15:48:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Roosterton
Quote:

All of the above can use blasters or rails as well, but the most common 'bonus' for these ships is only to range, so who cares if you're using another race's guns, no damage bonus is lost.



I don't get this. Range = damage. The bigger your optimal, the farther away they can get from you before your damage starts to negate. IMO, it's stupid to use any of those ships without hybrids, unless you specifically need the switchable damage types of ACs, or are flying in a straight alpha fleet. Others, a Rail Rokh can be great for sniping (longest range sniper in-game) and Moa/Ferox/Merlins with blasters can be great for close range brawls (they have enough range so that it isn't a disaster if something starts to inch away...)



Problem is - blasters have more falloff than optimal, and Caldari ships are optimal bonussed.
Railguns are worth having an optimal bonus on, but sadly they still just don't hit very hard - lasers do better, and can freely ammo switch.

I like having an optimal bonus on blasters, don't get me wrong, but blasters do still suffer from all the problems that the gallente pilots whine about. It's just Caldari get a bit more optimal, usually at cost of raw firepower. (Compare damage output of Ferox and Brutix if you will...)

Missiles on the other hand, I think are a reasonably credible PvP and PvE weapons - ironically, their range bonussing does actually add value, because you never have to switch missiles for range,and missiles are effective from 0 km upwards.


Mesh'la Naast
Posted - 2011.06.23 05:31:00 - [15]
 

Didn't the railguns use to actually do damage that would be considered very good and were actually optimal snipers and got nerfed very badly? I mean what's the point of launching a slug in space if it doesn't do damage? If anything it should do almost the MOST damage because it's a large slug and nothing to stop it but the ship you're hitting... I mean.. by CCP standards it should be one of the more damaging ships because of what it is.. any chance of a buff in the foreseeable future?

Shereza
Posted - 2011.06.23 09:13:00 - [16]
 

With the reintroduction of MWDs into the mission scene it might be (much more) feasible to "range" tank many missions while using railguns. The damage you do would be abysmal, but it's a fair enough tradeoff for what would amount to perfect safety. I've seen "tethers" in several missions to date, usually at the 100-200km mark, past which any NPC chasing you will unlock, turn around, and run back to its spawn point, at least for a bit. Taking that into account it shouldn't be hard to either slap on Thorium, sit 100-110k out (in a battleship), and pelt them or load spike, do less damage, and sit even further out.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.06.23 09:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Roosterton
Quote:

All of the above can use blasters or rails as well, but the most common 'bonus' for these ships is only to range, so who cares if you're using another race's guns, no damage bonus is lost.



I don't get this. Range = damage. The bigger your optimal, the farther away they can get from you before your damage starts to negate.


Doesn't help when Amarr ships' passive shield tank negates all of your damage.

Fermi Tesla
Posted - 2011.07.07 16:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Roosterton
Quote:

All of the above can use blasters or rails as well, but the most common 'bonus' for these ships is only to range, so who cares if you're using another race's guns, no damage bonus is lost.



I don't get this. Range = damage. The bigger your optimal, the farther away they can get from you before your damage starts to negate.


Doesn't help when Amarr ships' passive shield tank negates all of your damage.


You mean like an Arbi fit like this:


[Arbitrator, Low SP Passive]
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I

Dual 180mm AutoCannon I, EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon I, EMP M
Assault Missile Launcher I, Sabretooth Light Missile
Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I

Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I


Hammerhead I x5


 

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