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ALTOTHEIX
Advocates of Sin
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:20:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Robot Robot
I don't understand all you people who keep saying things like "Now there will be no way to make isk in low sec or null."

I have spent a LOT of time doing ratting and exploration solo in low and npc 0.0, flying almost exclusively battlecruisers with drones, microwarpdrives and no ECCM. So, pretty probeable.

I lose ships but, by simply being careful, I easily earn 500m isk for every BC I lose. Obviously, if those were faction fit T3s I was losing, then the budget wouldn't balance, but is that such a bad thing?

This change doesn't mean you can't make money in low/null. It means you can't (easily) make money flying billion isk ships in nullsec without friends.

That sounds fine to me.


you are a man's man good sir. I bet you dont normally drink beer but when you do, its Dos Equis spiked w Quafe.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:24:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Vrabac


I've used unprobable t3 for 100% safe and very efficient missioning in both low sec and 0.0 quite a bit and I'm really happy about this change. It's probably the one good thing coming with this patch and it is in fact rather awesome.


Lol what?

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:26:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Da Gooch
Lol what?


I made use of the unprobable t3 uberness yet I'm happy to see it go away (it was rather silly) and I consider this detail to be the best part, or perhaps even the only really good part, of the upcoming expansion.

Do you understand now? Neutral

daddys helper
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:26:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Da Gooch
Originally by: Vrabac


I've used unprobable t3 for 100% safe and very efficient missioning in both low sec and 0.0 quite a bit and I'm really happy about this change. It's probably the one good thing coming with this patch and it is in fact rather awesome.


Lol what?


guilty feelings?

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:29:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: Da Gooch
Lol what?


I made use of the unprobable t3 uberness yet I'm happy to see it go away (it was rather silly) and I consider this detail to be the best part, or perhaps even the only really good part, of the upcoming expansion.

Do you understand now? Neutral


So something worked for you, now it's being removed and you think it's awesome.. ok hahah, the trolls get better n better, keep them coming.

Besoina
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:33:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Besoina on 21/06/2011 16:34:21
Originally by: Da Gooch
Horrible change, makes any form of a decent income in 0.0 NPC space Nada to support pvp loss. O well CCP fail yet again.


Just put a cloaked scout near a warp acceleration gate, the moment you see it activate, run off (if your not warp scrambled).

Anyways, we all know the reason for unprobable tengus was to do level 5s without any pvp risk. Well, now they have more risk, but if your careful, the risk factor isn't that much higher.... And if you think about it, how long will it take to get a 100% reading? You should see plenty of probes on scan if that is the case.

Now that I think about it, even trying without the ability to actually do it, would probably scare off any tengu pilot now ... muahahhaha

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:34:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Da Gooch
So something worked for you, now it's being removed and you think it's awesome.


Yes exactly, because it worked too easily. I did it because I could, why wouldn't I? But it was a very badly designed detail of the game, since it made mission farming in totally hostile environments 100% safe provided you're not an absolute moron. Literally anyone attempting to play the unprobable-t3-are-killable-if-you-know-how card is either lying or is an idiot. And I know this because... yes, I used an eccmed t3.

If being happy with something like this going away is trolling, then I'm trolling, fine.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:36:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Besoina
Originally by: Da Gooch
Horrible change, makes any form of a decent income in 0.0 NPC space nadda to support pvp loss. O well CCP fail yet again.


Just put a cloaked scout near a warp acceleration gate, the moment you see it activate, run off (if your not warp scrambled).

Anyways, we all know the reason for unprobably tengus was to do level 5s without any pvp risk. Well, now they have more risk, but if your carefull, the risk factor isnt that much lower.... And if you think about it, how long will it take to get a 100% reading? You should see plenty of probes on scan if that is the case.

Now that I think about it, even trying without the ability to actually do it, would probably scare off any tengu pilot now ... muahahhaha


Well i have a cyno alt who also has perfect probe skills along with implants, im very curious to see how easy or hard it will be to scan down a well fit/implanted tengu. if it requires some work then its all gravy, but im guessing it will be very easy, infact im guessing a probe alt with all the required skills @ only 4 and no implants will find it easy, then again its all guess work until tested.

On the plus side, if they made scanning easier thats great for WH'ers :D

StillBorn CrackBaby
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:37:00 - [159]
 

I've rendered many, many ships unprobable. I just don't undock them....

ALTOTHEIX
Advocates of Sin
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:41:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: Da Gooch
So something worked for you, now it's being removed and you think it's awesome.


Yes exactly, because it worked too easily. I did it because I could, why wouldn't I? But it was a very badly designed detail of the game, since it made mission farming in totally hostile environments 100% safe provided you're not an absolute moron. Literally anyone attempting to play the unprobable-t3-are-killable-if-you-know-how card is either lying or is an idiot. And I know this because... yes, I used an eccmed t3.

If being happy with something like this going away is trolling, then I'm trolling, fine.



Don't listen to Gooch, he's just butt hurt cuz easy mode is gone.

Remald Kar
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:41:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Besoina
Edited by: Besoina on 21/06/2011 16:34:21
Originally by: Da Gooch
Horrible change, makes any form of a decent income in 0.0 NPC space Nada to support pvp loss. O well CCP fail yet again.


Just put a cloaked scout near a warp acceleration gate, the moment you see it activate, run off (if your not warp scrambled).

Anyways, we all know the reason for unprobable tengus was to do level 5s without any pvp risk. Well, now they have more risk, but if your careful, the risk factor isn't that much higher.... And if you think about it, how long will it take to get a 100% reading? You should see plenty of probes on scan if that is the case.

Now that I think about it, even trying without the ability to actually do it, would probably scare off any tengu pilot now ... muahahhaha



100 %? A minute or so, if you are lazy.

Did you fail to notice that 4 probe cap is being removed...ugh

Greetings from the Carebear Nation. Laughing

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:42:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: Da Gooch
So something worked for you, now it's being removed and you think it's awesome.


Yes exactly, because it worked too easily. I did it because I could, why wouldn't I? But it was a very badly designed detail of the game, since it made mission farming in totally hostile environments 100% safe provided you're not an absolute moron. Literally anyone attempting to play the unprobable-t3-are-killable-if-you-know-how card is either lying or is an idiot. And I know this because... yes, I used an eccmed t3.

If being happy with something like this going away is trolling, then I'm trolling, fine.


Fair enough, but way i see it is, if someone lives in 0.0 npc space they shouldnt "have" to be on the ball every single time they want to make some isk to pay for pvp ships, i love pvp, infact i hate pve in eve period, but there is times when things are quiet or i am just tired from work in rl and dont fancy going on roams etc where i just wanna sit back relax, watch an episode of murder she wrote and do some missions to make some cash, living in empire, this is fine after patch, living in lowsec in a griefing corp again its probobly fine, living in sov space well we all know how that is, but for the folks who live in npc space its a blow, thats all i have to say about it. some people wont grasp it, other's will, now when i want to sit back relax make some cash im forced to JC into empire and only make half the isk i was making, just lame, but different strokes for different folks i guess.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:44:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Da Gooch on 21/06/2011 16:52:25
Originally by: ALTOTHEIX


Don't listen to Gooch, he's just butt hurt cuz easy mode is gone.


No, easy mode is not gone, there is such thing as highsec...

Edit: I also mentioned i havent done a lvl 4/5 in over 6 month's why would i be butt hurt?

please read, thanks.

Xerxes Immortal
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:21:00 - [164]
 

All of you who keep saying "Fitting a t3 to be unprobable was hard and it gimped the ship so much" (ie. it takes skills to fly one) have got to be kidding me. I've seen countless unprobable tengu/proteus combined with unprobable basi/guardians. It doesn't take skills to slap on 2-3 ECCM modules... and it isn't like T3's have massive sig radius in the first place. You aren't going to be insta-probed... so all the whining really just means you guys aren't willing to hit your d-scan every 30 seconds or so. Big deal, the days of being 100% safe in low sec/null are gone... as intended.

Bologna Brains
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:23:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Bologna Brains on 21/06/2011 18:23:10
Originally by: Xerxes Immortal
the days of being 100% safe in low sec/null are gone... as intended.


Also gone: the days of having mission runners in low sec. Enjoy your new, even emptier low sec!

Xerxes Immortal
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:58:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Bologna Brains
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 21/06/2011 18:23:10
Originally by: Xerxes Immortal
the days of being 100% safe in low sec/null are gone... as intended.


Also gone: the days of having mission runners in low sec. Enjoy your new, even emptier low sec!


Well maybe LP prices will start returning to normal values and plex prices will drop a bit, so yeah, I'll be fine with it.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:01:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Bologna Brains

Also gone: the days of having mission runners in low sec. Enjoy your new, even emptier low sec!


And how exactly does that matter considering you weren't able to catch those guys anyways? Right, it doesn't.

Da Gooch
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:02:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Xerxes Immortal
Originally by: Bologna Brains
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 21/06/2011 18:23:10
Originally by: Xerxes Immortal
the days of being 100% safe in low sec/null are gone... as intended.


Also gone: the days of having mission runners in low sec. Enjoy your new, even emptier low sec!


Well maybe LP prices will start returning to normal values and plex prices will drop a bit, so yeah, I'll be fine with it.


Or you could stop being such a tight arse trying to play eve for free.

Dessau
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:04:00 - [169]
 

Five months of training...

*flush*

So it goes. Time to set a new course and start over.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:12:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: ALTOTHEIX
I am literally 2 days away from having my all lvl 5 ldrship alt into a what was planned to be unprobable bonusing loki. and now that's been hampered by this news. Believe me I was dismayed when I first read the patch notes.

now I cant leave him afk and will have to constantly check d-scan. I cant be lazy about it. Thats the big thing about this change.. no more easy mode with unprobable T3s. We must adapt or die.

In your boosting role, hitting DSCAN every so often is all fine, cuz you're not really doing anything else. Mission runners, otoh, have it harder. Ever tried to hit DSCAN every 5 seconds when you're doing Worlds Collide, room 3, trying frantically to shoot all webbers/scramblers off of you? It can probably be done, but is insane, really. Mission space should really not be invadable to begin with, as it now requires PvP alertness while being otherwise engaged in PvE.

As long as they haven't booted CCP Fallout out of CCP, though, expect more unreasonable pirate demands to be met in the foreseeable future.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.06.21 19:18:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei

In your boosting role, hitting DSCAN every so often is all fine, cuz you're not really doing anything else. Mission runners, otoh, have it harder. Ever tried to hit DSCAN every 5 seconds when you're doing Worlds Collide, room 3, trying frantically to shoot all webbers/scramblers off of you?

It can probably be done, but is insane, really.



I've done it while triple accounting wh sites AND watching a complete season of x-files. Am I insane? Most likely but to say it's too hard isn't really true. Eve is a slow paced game there is literally nothing to do which requires you to be 100% concentrated on the task.

Originally by: Ranka Mei

Mission space should really not be invadable to begin with, as it now requires PvP alertness while being otherwise engaged in PvE.



Troll! Laughing

Richard Whiteyes
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:41:00 - [172]
 

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13617967

Looks like someones been able to log in...

Auto Trader
Posted - 2011.06.21 23:48:00 - [173]
 

Most lvl 5 runner spend so much time planning ( skills / alt , ships/ OMFG those expensive implant ) moving from high-sec to low-sec life from the previous update , is now wasted

Iam fully understood the moved to low-sec , hell move it to 0.0,im all for it but now with this new patch lvl 5 has died , thx u once again

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.06.22 00:33:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Allover
I lived in stain for a decent amount of time, and made ******ed amounts of isk with a very scannable nighthawk that I never lost for 3 reasons. Intel channels, local awareness, and rediculous amounts of safespots per system I isked in.

For all the whiners out there. You can make money in unprobable ships, it is very easy. I did it in expensive ships. (Nighthawks are expensive enough)

The idiots claiming that NPC null sec is impossible to make money in are just idiots that don't know how to pay attention to information that everyone should already have available to them. Also, t2 fit your ships so that you dont lose multi billion isk ships when you die.

And don't tell me the whole go hard or go home thing. If you want to go hard, take a maurader into pvp, or regularly take machs, vindis, or Bhaalgorns into pvp.



I can vouch. I was also waiting for a MatrixSkye post (and he is correct in his assertion)

Spent a lot of time myself in bad places with a very probable exploration fit Cyclone and it still has the large grav cap rig to show its age.

It CAN be done and best of all, it's still possible for solo players to do it too using good intel and strategy.

Every time CCP gives a boost to the "pirates" or PVP, making solo playing harder, they only put more challenge into the same monthly subscription cost. We should expect this to be a game changer to both sides of the equation, much like would the removal of local (ok I am just trying to get Matrix's goat here sorry couldn't help it).


Bring the pain, CCP, bring the pain. Twisted Evil

hmmmmdmrummm
Posted - 2011.06.22 16:56:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: hmmmmdmrummm on 22/06/2011 17:20:00
Edited by: hmmmmdmrummm on 22/06/2011 17:18:41
Really dissapointed by this patch. I regularly use unprobable links and unprobable* snipers for PvP, as do other groups such as Burn Eden etc. Unprobable snipers are countered fairly easily enough with a little bit of thought, and realistically it seems only fair that if you invested in the time and effort to make a boosting alt, that you should be able to benefit from said alt. By making your ship unprobable you've basically sacrificed your entire tank so there's very little room for error, which I felt was a sacrifice that compensated for the fact that you're much more difficult to actually probe out when sniping. If the intended goal of this change was to make unprobable mission runners probable, well that makes sense, but it seems that this could have been by just adding a small sig rad bonus to any ship entering a deadspace complex/mission area to make them probable. As it is, this change just seems heavy handed and will probably negatively effect one of the most fun guerilla PvP tactics that I've so far tried out in EVE. I guess CCP feels that being unprobable was simply a bug, but I like to think of it as a mechanic that evolved from a bug with both good and bad elements. For PvP I'd contend it has been a good element that has allowed people to engage much larger blobs with some proper tactics, while still sacrificing enough that it's a fair tradeoff. For PvE, it seems to be the exact opposite, and so the nerfbat was warranted here. I just really wish that this wasn't a giant nerfbat to my one of my favorite styles of play, for the sake of letting some griefers kill some unprobable mission runners.

Sloppy Podfarts
Posted - 2011.06.22 17:03:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Font size reduced. Spitfire
[/quote



<3 Razz

Jim Tudeski
Posted - 2011.06.22 21:11:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Auto Trader
Most lvl 5 runner spend so much time planning ( skills / alt , ships/ OMFG those expensive implant ) moving from high-sec to low-sec life from the previous update , is now wasted

Iam fully understood the moved to low-sec , hell move it to 0.0,im all for it but now with this new patch lvl 5 has died , thx u once again

Yeah, because the majority of level 5 runners aren't carrier alts who complete them in 1-5 minutes and then just cyno out. Ohwait....

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2011.06.22 21:28:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Xerxes Immortal
All of you who keep saying "Fitting a t3 to be unprobable was hard and it gimped the ship so much" (ie. it takes skills to fly one) have got to be kidding me. I've seen countless unprobable tengu/proteus combined with unprobable basi/guardians. It doesn't take skills to slap on 2-3 ECCM modules... and it isn't like T3's have massive sig radius in the first place. You aren't going to be insta-probed... so all the whining really just means you guys aren't willing to hit your d-scan every 30 seconds or so. Big deal, the days of being 100% safe in low sec/null are gone... as intended.


I'm probably missing something here, but how the hell can logis be unprobable and what does ECCM has to do with that?

Titas Agor
TITANS OF PEACE
Posted - 2011.06.22 21:28:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Titas Agor on 22/06/2011 21:33:55
Edited by: Titas Agor on 22/06/2011 21:30:16
Very dissapointed about this change, but knew it was coming, CCP have a way to punish players who fit very inventive setups because of the PvP whine-train. Not quite sure if CCP actually knows how damn difficult it was to make a ship unprobable, you were forced to have pretty much a weak-ended offence with absolutely no deffence or tank to speak off in order to actually make your ship that way and ontop of that, it was hardly cheap to make a T3 be unprobable, the ship itself with the subs was several 100 million isk as it was anyway. To say that there were "BALANCING" the game mechanic is actually an insult to the what, 3% of all eve players that actually ever did that? The lack of offence and defence WAS the balancing point of making a ship unprobable.


I actually never did this technique, never needed and didn't give a monkeys if people came into my missions or not, but i knew one or two peeps that used it to defend themselfs when trying to go to exploration sites in .4, or take a small journey into a wormhole. Its kind of ******ed to use a nerf on something that actually doesn't make a huge impact on gameplay as a whole when barely anyone used this technuiqe anyway, but punishing people who created intuitive setups is a tad rediculas.

Originally by: Xerxes Immortal
All of you who keep saying "Fitting a t3 to be unprobable was hard and it gimped the ship so much" (ie. it takes skills to fly one) have got to be kidding me. I've seen countless unprobable tengu/proteus combined with unprobable basi/guardians. It doesn't take skills to slap on 2-3 ECCM modules... and it isn't like T3's have massive sig radius in the first place. You aren't going to be insta-probed... so all the whining really just means you guys aren't willing to hit your d-scan every 30 seconds or so. Big deal, the days of being 100% safe in low sec/null are gone... as intended.


no one was 100% safe anyway, are you really complaining about not being able to probe out mission runners? really? errr.. you can scan out the mission gates bud. you can scan out drones bud... and just to let you know, it takes more then just 2-3 eccms to make you unprobable.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.06.23 00:22:00 - [180]
 

The impact will be on available targets.

The way it works for missioning in low sec mainly as 0.0 deals with other factors (home team, usurpers, bubbles, etc) is that a player who knows how to use the maps and other intel sources may manage to get a few jumps into low without getting snagged in a camp provided that there is a proper fit.

The key word to apply here is "chance" so there is a chance to get to the mission and a chance to get back. Much of what could happen again a plan like that is a mistake on the part of the hunted. Those who would camp the gates can make their own mistakes as well, and there is plenty room for it on their behalf.

An un-probeable ship give a chance at finishing a mission or exploration site (though anyone who can see a ship in a site, and didn't take core probes with them when the combat probes fail, is already doing it wrong) but this is mainly about missions as they are not scannable.

Losing the ability to keep a ship from being scanned removes the chance of doing the mission.

The impact on target availability drops because a good crew can catch a ship fit for travel, even a T3, and with boosting, lock in 1 second. While there were threads whining about un-probables, there were also threads whining about "inst-lock". The un-probeable ship still had to get through the gates to go anyplace. There was a chance to catch it, hence the availability of a target.

"chance" drives players, not garunteed loss. Players also quit when the win is a given as well (or the inevitable boredom that leaves the door open for corp histrionics, drama, politics, etc). When going into low sec is garunteed to be ship loss, even if accepted, it's economically unsupportable as the ISK for replacement ships and modules eventually runs out. So even if mission runners liked getting ganked or at least being unable to finish missions, they would be hard pressed to come back for more level 4/5 missions when all they have is a rookie ship.

It's amazing how economics is ignored in every aspect of a life, even in games.

So with a reduction in targets, the low sec population will have to fight each other more for scraps while running a mining/market/indy alt to pay for more ships.

Nothing much will change though because the un-probable fit was still quite rare to begin with. I think T3 un-probeables were more common in 0.0 with their ability to escape bubble camps, but still have much use.

I think there will be more rage from the so-called "null bears" than the care bears. That is the question. I never used an un-probeable fit because a sharp crew can still pin you down.

Glad I didn't put in the skills.

To answer to someone who was wondering about larger ships being un-probeable, this was possible with fleet boosters. THere was a thread about un-probeables some time back that laid out a very good structure of what the logis need, implants, etc. That information is no longer of any use.






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