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Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:10:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Reilly Duvolle on 19/06/2011 23:11:12
Basically I think we need to recognize that the arena tourney format is fundamentally different than the sandbox "normal" EVE format. The tourney isnt "real EVE". It isnt a sandbox. It is a arena format designed to showcase "FAIR FIGHT PVP". Basically its the same thing as the difference between WAR and SPORTS. In war, everything goes. Not so in sports. And the AT IS a E-sport event.

Alliance tournaments showcase EVE online for new players and provide entertainment for tens of tousands of viewers. Alliances primarily participate to make a name for themselves and (since AT7) to get lots and lots of isk in the form of isk + unique blueprints.

After the finals, I have become convinced that some of the metagaming going on really crashes violently with the entertainment part of the tourney. In short, watching rigged matches like 0utbreak vs Razor, Circle-of-two vs Wild Boars and ofc the finals with Hydra vs 0utbreak simply isnt good TV. Metagaming has always been a part of the alliance tournament but the actual rigging of matches has increased sharply the last year, and unless the rules change we will probably see a much worse situation next year. Now if this was WAR (normal EVE) I would applaud it. But since it is SPORT, this is a problem.

The question is, how do you discourage that kind of behaviour? Well, one solution might be to replace isk and valuable ships with non-monetary prizes like a monument or something like that. That would leave e-honour as the primary goal for alliances, potentially reduce the investement some teams are now putting into winning the tourney and thus make poorer alliances able to compete, and not affect other parts of the metagame (spying etc). You could also drop group play and qualifiers and make every match count (no points carry over from one match to the next). I am sure there are ways. Also, big shout out to HYDRA and 0utbreak for awesome metagaming. But I hope this will be the last time we see a rigged final.

Salomei
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:35:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Salomei on 19/06/2011 23:40:09
Not totally sure how it was metagaming. Absolutely every aspect of this was doable with in-game tools and mechanics, and the rewards are apparently all game related (unless someone pulled a decent RL payout from this).

Also, when you use ISK to pay for access to the tourney, ships to fly in it, and game-time to recoup skills from T3 losses, and the prizes are all marketable in-game, there is no real boundary at all between "real" EVE and "AT" EVE. It only makes sense that alliances would try to manipulate it for some non-tournament benefit.

I'm even reluctant to say that there's any metagaming in EVE at all. EVE has been bigger than just a video game for years.

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:51:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Reilly Duvolle on 19/06/2011 23:55:29
Originally by: Salomei
Edited by: Salomei on 19/06/2011 23:40:09
Not totally sure how it was metagaming. Absolutely every aspect of this was doable with in-game tools and mechanics, and the rewards are apparently all game related (unless someone pulled a decent RL payout from this).

Also, when you use ISK to pay for access to the tourney, ships to fly in it, and game-time to recoup skills from T3 losses, and the prizes are all marketable in-game, there is no real boundary at all between "real" EVE and "AT" EVE. It only makes sense that alliances would try to manipulate it for some non-tournament benefit.

I'm even reluctant to say that there's any metagaming in EVE at all. EVE has been bigger than just a video game for years.


You are missing the point. The point is that the AT isnt EVE. It isnt a sandbox. It is not war. Its is not the same format at all, it is a SPORTS event. Currently the AT is like two football teams going to a match and are told "anything goes" and one of the teams brings assault rifles and kills other team to win 50-0. Now if they had been in war (real EVE), that would be fine. But since they should in fact be playing football, the spectators are gonna be very ****ed off. Not to mention the bookmakers. And the people that bet on the matches. In short, the whole SPORTS format collapses if matches are rigged. And if nothing is done to discourage it, the AT is going to fail.

Greniard
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:55:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Greniard on 19/06/2011 23:55:09
Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
Originally by: Salomei
Edited by: Salomei on 19/06/2011 23:40:09
Not totally sure how it was metagaming. Absolutely every aspect of this was doable with in-game tools and mechanics, and the rewards are apparently all game related (unless someone pulled a decent RL payout from this).

Also, when you use ISK to pay for access to the tourney, ships to fly in it, and game-time to recoup skills from T3 losses, and the prizes are all marketable in-game, there is no real boundary at all between "real" EVE and "AT" EVE. It only makes sense that alliances would try to manipulate it for some non-tournament benefit.

I'm even reluctant to say that there's any metagaming in EVE at all. EVE has been bigger than just a video game for years.



You are missing the point. The point is that the AT isnt EVE. It isnt a sandbox. It is not war. Its is not the same format at all, it is a SPORTS event. Currently the AT is like two football teams going to a match and are told "anything goes" and one of the teams brings assault rifles and kills other team to win 50-0. Now if they had been in war (real EVE), that would be fine. But since they should in fact be playing football, the spectators are gonna be very ****ed off.

Can you list some rules changes that will stop this from happening? Should probably mail them to ccp while you're at it.

Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.19 23:58:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
Edited by: Reilly Duvolle on 19/06/2011 23:11:12
Basically I think we need to recognize that the arena tourney format is fundamentally different than the sandbox "normal" EVE format. The tourney isnt "real EVE". It isnt a sandbox. It is a arena format designed to showcase "FAIR FIGHT PVP". Basically its the same thing as the difference between WAR and SPORTS. In war, everything goes. Not so in sports. And the AT IS a E-sport event.

Alliance tournaments showcase EVE online for new players and provide entertainment for tens of tousands of viewers. Alliances primarily participate to make a name for themselves and (since AT7) to get lots and lots of isk in the form of isk + unique blueprints.

After the finals, I have become convinced that some of the metagaming going on really crashes violently with the entertainment part of the tourney. In short, watching rigged matches like 0utbreak vs Razor, Circle-of-two vs Wild Boars and ofc the finals with Hydra vs 0utbreak simply isnt good TV. Metagaming has always been a part of the alliance tournament but the actual rigging of matches has increased sharply the last year, and unless the rules change we will probably see a much worse situation next year. Now if this was WAR (normal EVE) I would applaud it. But since it is SPORT, this is a problem.

The question is, how do you discourage that kind of behaviour? Well, one solution might be to replace isk and valuable ships with non-monetary prizes like a monument or something like that. That would leave e-honour as the primary goal for alliances, potentially reduce the investement some teams are now putting into winning the tourney and thus make poorer alliances able to compete, and not affect other parts of the metagame (spying etc). You could also drop group play and qualifiers and make every match count (no points carry over from one match to the next). I am sure there are ways. Also, big shout out to HYDRA and 0utbreak for awesome metagaming. But I hope this will be the last time we see a rigged final.


This is a good constructive post, thank you. Under current rules and expectations, Hydra and Outbreak did well. If there were different rules and expectations then I agree everyone would have cause for concern.

Garner enough support and get CCP involved.

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Greniard

Can you list some rules changes that will stop this from happening? Should probably mail them to ccp while you're at it.


As stated in the OP, you could drop the big isk prizes and replace it with an in-game monument or somthing E-honourish to remove the tempation of what is effectively a trillion ISK, you could drop all competition formats that allows teams to carry points from one match to another (every match counts). I am sure there are other ways too.

Vynel Mortes
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:05:00 - [7]
 

Alright so everyone seems to be right here.

Correct the Alliance Tournament is not the "Sandbox".

Correct the Alliance Tournament is a sporting event.

And in the normal world there would be rules against the throwing of matches and other such behaviors, however this isn't the normal world this is eve. and while today Outbreak and Hydra Reloaded fought in the AT finals. tommorrow they will be involved in some other form of combat, be it as allies or opponents, the reality is that by throwing a match in the AT one side or the other can create an advantage in the Sandbox.

So in the end what really happened, viewers got to see what really happens in Eve, one person siding iwth another only to **** them over own the road. This is the Eve, and whether the aliance tournament or not it's not a fair play environment. Good show to both teams thanks for showing new players the heavily political world that they are climbing into.

The AT shouldd showcase eve at it's best not just how many slepnirs a team can put on a field and this AT did exactly that.

Greniard
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:07:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
Originally by: Greniard

Can you list some rules changes that will stop this from happening? Should probably mail them to ccp while you're at it.


As stated in the OP, you could drop the big isk prizes and replace it with an in-game monument or somthing E-honourish to remove the tempation of what is effectively a trillion ISK, you could drop all competition formats that allows teams to carry points from one match to another (every match counts). I am sure there are other ways too.
So basically put a price tag on e-honoUr? Just makes it even harder for people without isk to win as they have nothing to pay opponents with. I bet that would change everything. Also people would throw away 200b isk in tournament setups to get blown up.

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:10:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Vynel Mortes
Alright so everyone seems to be right here.

Correct the Alliance Tournament is not the "Sandbox".

Correct the Alliance Tournament is a sporting event.

And in the normal world there would be rules against the throwing of matches and other such behaviors, however this isn't the normal world this is eve. and while today Outbreak and Hydra Reloaded fought in the AT finals. tommorrow they will be involved in some other form of combat, be it as allies or opponents, the reality is that by throwing a match in the AT one side or the other can create an advantage in the Sandbox.

So in the end what really happened, viewers got to see what really happens in Eve, one person siding iwth another only to **** them over own the road. This is the Eve, and whether the aliance tournament or not it's not a fair play environment. Good show to both teams thanks for showing new players the heavily political world that they are climbing into.

The AT shouldd showcase eve at it's best not just how many slepnirs a team can put on a field and this AT did exactly that.



'F1' fires guns, Alliance chat window can start wars, talking to the right person at the right time can win battles and tournaments.

Welcome To Eve, the universe is yours.

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:13:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Greniard
So basically put a price tag on e-honoUr? Just makes it even harder for people without isk to win as they have nothing to pay opponents with. I bet that would change everything. Also people would throw away 200b isk in tournament setups to get blown up.


Basically I think that if you remove the 1+0.7 trillion isk (1st and 2nd place) tempation you accomplishg a few things:
- You remove the AT prizes ability to affect "real EVE" (ISK is power)
- You discourage alliances from spending 200 billion on setups, and thus
- You lower the treshold for not so wealthy alliances to be able to compete

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:17:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Kagumichan

'F1' fires guns, Alliance chat window can start wars, talking to the right person at the right time can win battles and tournaments.

Welcome To Eve, the universe is yours.


The problem is the inconsistency. In a sandbox, yes. There is no rules and anything goes. But the AT is specifically showcased as a SPORT event - with commentators, rules, spectators, bookmakers and betters. This system COLLAPSES if matches are rigged. IF we were to treat the AT like EVE, why not allow for Titan hotdrops. At least that would be consistent.

Greniard
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:18:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
Originally by: Greniard
So basically put a price tag on e-honoUr? Just makes it even harder for people without isk to win as they have nothing to pay opponents with. I bet that would change everything. Also people would throw away 200b isk in tournament setups to get blown up.


Basically I think that if you remove the 1+0.7 trillion isk (1st and 2nd place) tempation you accomplishg a few things:
- You remove the AT prizes ability to affect "real EVE" (ISK is power)
- You discourage alliances from spending 200 billion on setups, and thus
- You lower the treshold for not so wealthy alliances to be able to compete

Well that's 200b more to give to opponents. So I guess that's good.Rolling Eyes

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
Originally by: Greniard
So basically put a price tag on e-honoUr? Just makes it even harder for people without isk to win as they have nothing to pay opponents with. I bet that would change everything. Also people would throw away 200b isk in tournament setups to get blown up.


Basically I think that if you remove the 1+0.7 trillion isk (1st and 2nd place) tempation you accomplishg a few things:
- You remove the AT prizes ability to affect "real EVE" (ISK is power)
- You discourage alliances from spending 200 billion on setups, and thus
- You lower the treshold for not so wealthy alliances to be able to compete


Well Zastrow had already said last week, the 120 billion isk prize money didn't even touch the weekly budget that Goonswarm have, so it wouldn't discourage big setups, it wouldn't even affect big alliances as they can make that kind of money over the course of a single week. It would however discourage smaller alliances, 'cos they'd know they'd not make any of their money back from lost ships if they did win, so they'd still be out of pocket in the long-run.

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kagumichan

Well Zastrow had already said last week, the 120 billion isk prize money didn't even touch the weekly budget that Goonswarm have, so it wouldn't discourage big setups, it wouldn't even affect big alliances as they can make that kind of money over the course of a single week. It would however discourage smaller alliances, 'cos they'd know they'd not make any of their money back from lost ships if they did win, so they'd still be out of pocket in the long-run.


The isk is only a fraction of the true value. The real money is in the ship blueprints. As stated, 1st and second place is approximately worth 1.7 trillion isk. As a comparison: DRF reportedy payed PL 600 billion for the campaign against the NC. In short, 1.7 trillion isk translates to POWER on TQ. That is why this trend will NOT stop unless unchecked. And as a SPORTS event, the AT will thus die.

Greniard
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:34:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
Originally by: Kagumichan

Well Zastrow had already said last week, the 120 billion isk prize money didn't even touch the weekly budget that Goonswarm have, so it wouldn't discourage big setups, it wouldn't even affect big alliances as they can make that kind of money over the course of a single week. It would however discourage smaller alliances, 'cos they'd know they'd not make any of their money back from lost ships if they did win, so they'd still be out of pocket in the long-run.


The isk is only a fraction of the true value. The real money is in the ship blueprints. As stated, 1st and second place is approximately worth 1.7 trillion isk. As a comparison: DRF reportedy payed PL 600 billion for the campaign against the NC. In short, 1.7 trillion isk translates to POWER on TQ. That is why this trend will NOT stop unless unchecked. And as a SPORTS event, the AT will thus die.
And you don't get the point so let me make it clear for you.

The Alliance Tournament would still be full of metagame and staged matches. Probably even more so as teams actually have less to lose.

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:39:00 - [16]
 

I keep hearing this word sport popping up everywhere and people acting like Eve is the only one corrupted by metagaming when sport is involved.

I take it you never heard about how FIFA have been sued to hell over the past year for corruption and metagaming?

WWE has more thrown matches than any 'sport' I've ever seen.

Oh and the football world cup when it was in France, all of a sudden the french team become really good and win it on home turf considering every time before that they were beaten down like frightened prairie dogs?

Metagaming... yeah... exclusive to Eve...

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:41:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Greniard
And you don't get the point so let me make it clear for you.

The Alliance Tournament would still be full of metagame and staged matches. Probably even more so as teams actually have less to lose.


Well since you obviously have the superior intelligence I must say I am curious as to exactly WHY you think this would be the case. Because by your logic, the less teams have to gain by metagaming, the more they are going to do it.

Greniard
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
Originally by: Greniard
And you don't get the point so let me make it clear for you.

The Alliance Tournament would still be full of metagame and staged matches. Probably even more so as teams actually have less to lose.


Well since you obviously have the superior intelligence I must say I am curious as to exactly WHY you think this would be the case. Because by your logic, the less teams have to gain by metagaming, the more they are going to do it.
More like the more they can do it, because it's cheap. And there will be betting so...

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:47:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Kagumichan
I keep hearing this word sport popping up everywhere and people acting like Eve is the only one corrupted by metagaming when sport is involved.

I take it you never heard about how FIFA have been sued to hell over the past year for corruption and metagaming?

WWE has more thrown matches than any 'sport' I've ever seen.

Oh and the football world cup when it was in France, all of a sudden the french team become really good and win it on home turf considering every time before that they were beaten down like frightened prairie dogs?

Metagaming... yeah... exclusive to Eve...


Although this might be the case, it DOES create an outcry and investigations and even charges and imprisonment whenever such cases arise. And for good reason. Sportsevents are NOT supposed to be rigged. Thats the whole point of sports. That some events are indeed rigged anyway doesnt mean that this fundamental premise is wrong.

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:55:00 - [20]
 

Eh true, but I still don't really see a problem, everyone put their best effort and isk into the tourny, did their best, got to the end, and though the last match was rigged and slow and dull the rest of the tourny was great and hilarious to watch, Shadoo was amazing, Zastrow was funny, Kill2 provided lots of new information to the new PvP'ers and Raivi graced us all with his big smile and shiny nose, and we got to watch it for free.

I know I'll be watching it again on youtube once it's uploaded, 'cos I spent most of the day rolling around in laughter. People are letting an anti-climatic match at the end shadow how awesome the rest of the day was.

I'm actually more dissapointed about how many PL Minmatar setup copies all the teams brought over what Hydra and Outbreak did at the end, and it was about time an awesome shiny Gallente Battleship got some limelight instead of all those Sleipners and Cyclones :P

It's all just a game though, it's made for enjoyment, what kind of enjoyment people get from it is down to preference, and like CCP Soundwave said earlier today, "you can't please everybody"

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:09:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Kagumichan
Eh true, but I still don't really see a problem, everyone put their best effort and isk into the tourny, did their best, got to the end, and though the last match was rigged and slow and dull the rest of the tourny was great and hilarious to watch, Shadoo was amazing, Zastrow was funny, Kill2 provided lots of new information to the new PvP'ers and Raivi graced us all with his big smile and shiny nose, and we got to watch it for free.

I know I'll be watching it again on youtube once it's uploaded, 'cos I spent most of the day rolling around in laughter. People are letting an anti-climatic match at the end shadow how awesome the rest of the day was.

I'm actually more dissapointed about how many PL Minmatar setup copies all the teams brought over what Hydra and Outbreak did at the end, and it was about time an awesome shiny Gallente Battleship got some limelight instead of all those Sleipners and Cyclones :P

It's all just a game though, it's made for enjoyment, what kind of enjoyment people get from it is down to preference, and like CCP Soundwave said earlier today, "you can't please everybody"


I'm not dissing the tourney as a whole. Most of the last day has been really good and also many matches in the group stages. However, the tendency to rig matches has seen a sharp increase from AT8 to AT9, and unless unchecked, this will only get worse. At a point, the AT will thus simply stop beeing a SPORT event and just be a part of "normal" EVE. And at that point, you might as well allow titan hotdrops.

Heinrich'von'Thrak
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:10:00 - [22]
 

i support this 'monument idea'. also i think to take the isk war out of a sports event, ally tournament contenders should train on sisi and the tournament should take place on sisi with sisi prices. money problem solved. also everybody should train in wormholes so metagaming is reduced to a minimum. to even it up even more, ccp could think of maxing out all skills of the AT contenders on sisi for the duration of the AT.
last problem e-honor: if it is found out that an alliance bribed their way up, then it is disqualified and banned from AT forever.

well... all of this is needed to take the 'sandbox' out of AT and base the outcoming of this e-sports event on player skills alone. as for example in CS. good idea? ^^

Chelso
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:11:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
..."FAIR FIGHT PVP"...


No.

darius mclever
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:13:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
However, the tendency to rig matches has seen a sharp increase from AT8 to AT9, and unless unchecked, this will only get worse. At a point, the AT will thus simply stop beeing a SPORT event and just be a part of "normal" EVE. And at that point, you might as well allow titan hotdrops.


People just do it more openly now. In the past you just didnt know it. So which do you prefer?

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:15:00 - [25]
 

The difference between the AT and the World Cup is that, in the World Cup, people pay specifically to see player skill and good football. In AT, CCP is nice enough to give it to you all for free. They are not obligated to give you fair fights, e-honor, or any of that jazz. They are supposed to do everything in their abilities to win the tournament without breaking any rules, and 0utbreak, in a noble and heroic fashion, decided that their partners in Hydra ultimately deserved the first place more than them. Either way, both teams did a great job coordinating it and getting to the finale, which ended in a truly unpredictable, EVE-like fashion. There really isn't a problem. ugh

Greniard
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:15:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Greniard on 20/06/2011 01:19:14
Originally by: Heinrich'von'Thrak
if it is found out that an alliance bribed their way up, then it is disqualified and banned from AT forever.
Get an alliance banned, disband said alliance, form new alliance, profit.

And before you go all "permaban all the players in said alliance": 1) one player takes bribe for lulz, whole alliance gets banned, prof... waitwhat. 2) player gets banned, get new credit card, buy new character, profit.

Kagumichan
Degenerate Corp
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:17:00 - [27]
 

If Test were not knocked out in the qualifiers I would have actually expected a Titan hot-drop at some point, or even a Supercap XD

I dunno, I guess if Hydra had simply executed that final match a little better all the trolling in the forums could easily be replaced with cheering and GG's all around, the fact that Hydra's setup wasn't strong enough to out-do Outbreak I think was the whole cause for the upset, if it had been would Hydra have kept going and taken all of Outbreak out without anyone knowing it was a fix?

But those are if's and but's, and the past can't be changed, may as well move on and wait for next years tournament and see how that one goes. It could be epic, and if it is, I feel sorry for all these whiners saying "I'm not watching anymore tournys" 'cos they'll miss out, but that's their problem for being so self-centered into thinking that their opinion alone is going to make a huge difference in a game with over 70,000 players.

Ah well, fly safe o7

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:18:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Reilly Duvolle on 20/06/2011 01:23:38
Originally by: darius mclever
People just do it more openly now. In the past you just didnt know it. So which do you prefer?


Well you can claim they did, but there is really no proof of that is there Cool

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:21:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Roosterton
The difference between the AT and the World Cup is that, in the World Cup, people pay specifically to see player skill and good football. In AT, CCP is nice enough to give it to you all for free. They are not obligated to give you fair fights, e-honor, or any of that jazz. They are supposed to do everything in their abilities to win the tournament without breaking any rules, and 0utbreak, in a noble and heroic fashion, decided that their partners in Hydra ultimately deserved the first place more than them. Either way, both teams did a great job coordinating it and getting to the finale, which ended in a truly unpredictable, EVE-like fashion. There really isn't a problem. ugh


Brilliant. So your argument isessentially... Its free, therefore customers wanting to see good PVP doenst really matter.

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.06.20 01:22:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Roosterton on 20/06/2011 01:22:15
Originally by: Reilly Duvolle
Originally by: Roosterton
The difference between the AT and the World Cup is that, in the World Cup, people pay specifically to see player skill and good football. In AT, CCP is nice enough to give it to you all for free. They are not obligated to give you fair fights, e-honor, or any of that jazz. They are supposed to do everything in their abilities to win the tournament without breaking any rules, and 0utbreak, in a noble and heroic fashion, decided that their partners in Hydra ultimately deserved the first place more than them. Either way, both teams did a great job coordinating it and getting to the finale, which ended in a truly unpredictable, EVE-like fashion. There really isn't a problem. ugh


Brilliant. So your argument isessentially... Its free, therefore customers wanting to see good PVP doenst really matter.


No, but it means the teams participating do not have to cater specifically to your needs.

Metagaming is a part of EVE. I enjoyed it just as much as the actual shooting. What makes what I enjoy any less valid than what you enjoy? Who are you to say that the alliance tourney is only supposed to be about physical PVP?


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