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Marrak Taron
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:57:00 - [1]
 

As I understand it what makes us eggers unique is our ability to interface with the pod, and cloning. However from what I have read cloning is not unique to eggers, only the fact that the pod is always easy to tell if you are about to need a new clone or not.

Now lets say I was an *extremely*benevolent captain, and made sure that my crew would have clones available, scanned as of the last docking of the ship, that would activate upon loss notice of the ship, along with protocols in place to make sure all crew died with the ship (for the cloning process to work) Regardless of the fact that this would be quite expensive, would this be a feasible option to allow a continuing crew roster to build relations with, despite the suicidal missions?


Xervish Krin
Posted - 2011.06.18 11:40:00 - [2]
 

I think the main problem is that who gets access to cloning is extremely restricted by all the empires, and only a handful of people are actually allowed access. You could operate from an illegal clone lab I suppose, but I imagine even a capsuleer wouldn't get away if caught running one of those. There's also the fact that clones are *very* expensive, even the lowest grade ones we get in game are around 100,000 ISK if I remember right. Multiply by a five hundred crewmen and you get costs in the tens of millions. By contrast, I've read (can't remember where) that 200 ISK or so is considered a high monthly salary for a normal person.

Personally, I'd just go with the plot armor approach and have all the 'important' characters in the crew make it to the escape pods in time. Cloning could work, but it'd be very risky and very expensive.

Marrak Taron
Posted - 2011.06.18 12:00:00 - [3]
 

I fly a small ship, a frigate class, and right now I am saying I am using just drones to fly it around, however I would like only a few crew members 1 - 5 to fly it. Also, since they are just crew and not an egger I would think the lowest grade clone is suitable. I also mostly operate in Faction Warfare Low Sec.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.06.18 14:17:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 18/06/2011 14:27:28
you've still got it wrong mate. you have a crew. They get escape pods (or used to based on the lore... but this was back when crew compliments were listed). Your crew likely won't get cloned -- it's the headgear that we wear which allows us to be cloned. No matter what, the electronics will be in the right place to keep us alive... not so much on a ship that's getting rocked by missiles/lasers/projectiles/hybrid slugs.

Fact of the matter is, there is direct no "interaction" with your crew whatsoever (MAYBE when they were hired on, else it was someone acting on your behalf). You're a capsuleer; they never see you save for a computer-generated image; they never hear you save for a computer-generated voice. For all intents and purposes this is what we "look" like in the capsules (this just happens to be the image that the capsuleer wanted to project... but it's close enough I suppose).

I forget which chronicle it is at the moment, but (IIRC) a month's salary plus signon bonus to a capsuleer's ship is essentially more money than a non-capsuleer would make in a lifetime on a planet's surface.

edit -- found the chronicle. linky ... bah, doesn't mention how much the guy was getting though.

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.18 16:21:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 18/06/2011 16:28:19

I've always assumed it to be much like you would see in the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries on whaling vessels and merchant ships.

Probably handled through the Secure Commerce Commission where crew postions are posted somewhere in every station and those interested apply through the SCC for a stint on spaceships. The crewmen have no financial obligations while serving, it is provided by the Capsuleer or Corporate interest that runs the ships.

At the end of their term of service, they are cut loose at whatever station they are at with a very healthy new balance on their kredit account. At least in some Empires. The Amarr handle their crew requirements in a different fashion, but, probably still pay into the maintainance of the SCC system, which I assume to be very much like the Teamsters.

And my take on Xenocracy is that pic is of a True Slave, not a Capsuleer, he's not even in a pod..

Kybernetes Moros
Amarr
True Slave Foundations
Posted - 2011.06.18 16:40:00 - [6]
 

The Xenocracy picture wasn't necessarily tied in any way to what was 'actually' happening -- the capsuleer wanted to portray himself like that, and so used that avatar. It wasn't a live video feed (and given that it'd just be a pod full of goo and a body, there'd not be much to see for that).

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.18 17:38:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 18/06/2011 17:38:50
Maybe.. Smile

It could be, too, that True Power is expanding it's scope of influence in expectation of Dust 514..

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.18 18:42:00 - [8]
 

Access to cloning: It is mostly restricted by money. There are several mentions of "normal people" who have money to use clones, even jump clones.

Xenocracy: An avatar. It is mentioned in Burning Life that at least agents have access to simulated avatars. Similarly, I'd assume a capsuleer would have access to equipment that allows to fake his appearance. (Well, otherwise the other party would see nothing but darkness - if the capsuleer would be in a pod.)

Salvatore Satriani
Caldari
Caldari Navy Task Force 62
Rieos Coalition
Posted - 2011.06.19 14:25:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Salvatore Satriani on 19/06/2011 14:28:17
Hold on, we are in a pod to replace the crew. Our nueral strength and control is all automated so we dont need extra thousands of hands.


I even asked this once in the help channel. An ISD told me.

"No, the ships you fly in EvE have absolutely no crew, thats why were in pods."

Though he did tell me pirates, and other npcs have crews or something about that, we don't were the only person. Might be some drones doin stuff, but whatev.


So I guess that clears it up. I guess if you want to "pretend" theres a crew in there go ahead.

Onyx Blackman
Posted - 2011.06.19 15:03:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Salvatore Satriani
Edited by: Salvatore Satriani on 19/06/2011 14:28:17
Hold on, we are in a pod to replace the crew. Our nueral strength and control is all automated so we dont need extra thousands of hands.


I even asked this once in the help channel. An ISD told me.

"No, the ships you fly in EvE have absolutely no crew, thats why were in pods."

Though he did tell me pirates, and other npcs have crews or something about that, we don't were the only person. Might be some drones doin stuff, but whatev.


So I guess that clears it up. I guess if you want to "pretend" theres a crew in there go ahead.


Wrong. That ISD was incorrect, which is not unusual.

Salvatore Satriani
Caldari
Caldari Navy Task Force 62
Rieos Coalition
Posted - 2011.06.19 15:59:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Salvatore Satriani on 19/06/2011 16:04:29
Very cool link, thanks for showing me that, really everybody else is in the mindset we don't have any.

Because outside of this thread I have never heard anyone heartilly admit that we do have crews. That kinda makes me scratch my head though, I'm guessing the crew comes complimentary with the ship in the purchering costs. The hiring and all that you know. I wish there was an actual feature in the game that allowed us some to any interaction with the Crew.


Like for example, having like a selection of officers you can intervate and assign different posistions for whatever attributes or specialties they may have. Hows that sound?

Also another fantasy of mine was having boarding details on your ship to incapacitate and commandeer another vessel. Theres no reason why CCP should not implement features like this.


Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.06.19 17:55:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Salvatore Satriani
Edited by: Salvatore Satriani on 19/06/2011 16:04:29
Very cool link, thanks for showing me that, really everybody else is in the mindset we don't have any.

Because outside of this thread I have never heard anyone heartilly admit that we do have crews. That kinda makes me scratch my head though, I'm guessing the crew comes complimentary with the ship in the purchering costs. The hiring and all that you know. I wish there was an actual feature in the game that allowed us some to any interaction with the Crew.


Like for example, having like a selection of officers you can intervate and assign different posistions for whatever attributes or specialties they may have. Hows that sound?

Also another fantasy of mine was having boarding details on your ship to incapacitate and commandeer another vessel. Theres no reason why CCP should not implement features like this.




...kinda hard to commandeer a vessel that can ONLY be piloted by a capsuleer...

Arista Shahni
Amarr
Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
Posted - 2011.06.20 09:09:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Arista Shahni on 20/06/2011 09:12:50
The "no crew" thing likely comes from this: http://www.eveonline.com/background/eggers/

"Stories are told of pod pilot heroes flying on the side of the Caldari during the twilight years of the Gallente-Caldari war, executing maneuvers unthinkable to those encumbered with a full crew complement and the bothersome necessity of using vocal commands and hand-eye coordination to steer their vessels."

But that's a 'Full Crew Complement' aka a full bridge. I guess a quick read would make someone think that meant no crew -at all- but, yeah.

So, there's no bridge, just the pod, but basic things like keeping the plumbing running and the hallways swept and etc is likely still crew-operated on larger vessels.

Also, regarding cloning your crew: the issue withthe clone snapshot is pointed out in the second page of that article:

"The crucial element in the process relies on a brain-scan snapshot being taken at the precise time of death and transmitted to the waiting clone, and so the transneural burning scanner required to do so needs to be mounted somewhere close to the person at all times. Since the snapshot itself causes massive physical damage to the gray matter, there can be no margin of error; it needs to be done at the exact time of death. In planetary vehicles, the cloning companies have experimented with mounting the transneural scanner in a variety of locations, but the almost limitless potentiality of planet-bound environments has proved time and again that it just isnít safe Ė snapshots either go off due to false stimuli, leaving healthy clients in a vegetative state, or fail to go off due to circumstances unforeseen by the safeguard mechanism, leaving clients dead with no chance of retransplantation."

when you're dealing with a ship that would contain crew, a hull-breach may not mean death of -everyone-, and there is still a possibility of overall ship survival. Also crew would be running around, and the assumption lent is that the ENTIRE scanner is bulky enough to not be something just worn on your head like the baseball hat fo death it is in the capsule :). Scaners could be out of range, or jostling from the pounding the ship was taking, with the crew not supported in the capsule.. yeah. People still wouldn't survive.

Edit: and as seen, you can't snapshot yourself before a mission. The snapshot basically fries your brain.

I suppose a *good* captain could illegally pod some of their crew (like the likely unecessary 'bridge' crew), but I guess that that the crew that is needed on a large ship NEEDS the mobility of not being in a pod so they could do their jobs. Anything that can be done by an inidividual who doesn't need to move, I think, is routed to the capsuleer.

That's my understanding of it anyway, someone correct me if I'm wrong. :)


Marrak Taron
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:13:00 - [14]
 

Okay, forgot about the scan frying your brain thing, Still I would rather have an... eccentric egger, who rather is invested in his rag-tag crew. In his personal back-story (which hopefully is all allowable) since he is a former slave, the crew consists of the few other slaves who escaped with him. However when they got to the Republic they were tested for the ability to become a Capsuleer and only he was eligible. He, and his friends however all wanted to take revenge on the Amaarr for their slaver so vowed to fly in the same ship. As such he is... unusual in the fact that he knows his crew, quite well in fact.

So ... if they can't be cloned, can I at least assume that I duct taped the necessary escape pods to my ship to make sure that my small crew escapes, alive and well, since I normally don't get instapopped?

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.06.21 13:18:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Marrak Taron
So ... if they can't be cloned, can I at least assume that I duct taped the necessary escape pods to my ship to make sure that my small crew escapes, alive and well, since I normally don't get instapopped?



you can assume whatever you want in regards to the survival of the crew.

Graelyn
Amarr
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:58:00 - [16]
 

Many will escape. Seriously. Especially if you're taking a long time to get destroyed; plenty of time to issue the 'ABANDON SHIP' order.

But plying a trade in space is risky. No matter how badly you want to protect some people, you are in space, and war is hell. You will lose some of your precious people.

Instead of trying to magic yourself a method of perfect protection, I'd develop more of how your pilot deals with the fact that, no matter his near-demi-god status, he is still unable to keep all of his people alive. It's a classic Superman complex: If I'm so powerful, why can't I save them all?

You can't. How you go about dealing with that is important.

Arista Shahni
Amarr
Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
Posted - 2011.06.21 20:36:00 - [17]
 

There's escape pods on friggies, but I supsect the average crew just use them as extra closets. :) Someone at EVE allocates an average >5% chance for crew survival (for RP purposes) on friggies but I guess because a frigate in warops, well, usually we're slamming the warp button in the beginnings of armor and leaving as a pod or the job is to stay there till it's done or the ship fries - in other words, well, watch your Shield/armor/hullwheel... if it's being 1-2 shotted, even if you give the order to abandon ship as you get *locked up* by something that will pop you in a Frigate, the crew might not even make it to the pods before it blows. (Someone else linked this in another thread, fits here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines)

A frigate is sort of like a flying ball of tinfoil with guns on it, wrapped around your pod (and that applies to all races ;) ). Personally, I LOVE flying them. :D

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.06.22 23:04:00 - [18]
 

About cloning crew: I think this could still be doable on a small scale. The burning scanner isn't the only way to scan a brain, or else you would be unable to clonejump. Just have them "back-up" monthly or weekly.

Arista Shahni
Amarr
Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
Posted - 2011.06.23 00:06:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Che Biko
About cloning crew: I think this could still be doable on a small scale. The burning scanner isn't the only way to scan a brain, or else you would be unable to clonejump. Just have them "back-up" monthly or weekly.


Oooh. Dang good point. But you need huge amounts of loyalty for that afaik (I'm noob) and would an "NPC" corp supply jump-clones for non-pilots.. unless there's another way to supply jump-clones?

Evet Morrel
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.06.23 17:44:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Evet Morrel on 24/06/2011 07:49:41
Originally by: Che Biko
About cloning crew: I think this could still be doable on a small scale. The burning scanner isn't the only way to scan a brain, or else you would be unable to clonejump. Just have them "back-up" monthly or weekly.


Anyway, you have to take a view don't you, it's not about authority, it's about a convincing narrative. One that's strikes you as authentic. Anyway my command crew are cloned, so ya boo sucks, they only have memories of our successful missions. This is good for moral but does necessitate tedious debriefs and rigorous training simulations, post op. Inevitably it also means that I know more about each of them than they realize, memories of thing they're desperately to tell sweet hearts etc. The others well they do go the way of all things - poor blighters.

edit: Seismic Stan was in the other thread on this doh


Marrak Taron
Posted - 2011.06.23 21:51:00 - [21]
 

Okay, so I also looked at the new crew listings, which did kind of shock me on the whole frigate crew size thing. Since the Rifter is supposed to be about the size of the Boeing 787, but is mostly engines / guns I didn't think it would need too many crew members.

All the same, so would this mean I could say I have a crew of about 20 - 30, with about 3 - 5 people I care for enough to give clones to? (While Marrak does regret the loss of life, he is not that benevolent)

Also, since the Minmatar are closely allied with the Gallente would it be possible to say he bought some of those fancy automated drones, to reduce the living crew down to about 10 - 15, and drones?

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.06.24 06:30:00 - [22]
 

Meh, if you change your weapons into drones and hybrids, and start armor tanking. Razz

In all seriousness, I think it could be done, but it would be way more cost effective if you just fly Gallente.


 

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