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Super Chair
Caldari
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:41:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Archenom
It seems to me there are two large complaints in this thread:

1) I want more pew pew and the mechanic I see presented to me to help me get pew pew (Occupancy Mechanics/Plexing) does not reward me with anything other than maybe some pew, but more likely watching a button tick down)

And

2) FW Mission alts are overrunning FW missions and tanking the FW LP market. This is forcing me to run FW missions more to make the same ammount of isk, which is in return taking away from my pew pew time.

Something I have not seen suggested yet, to my suprise, is putting a weekly limit on FW missions. Cap it so you can run 1 mission per week per agent. Then we can still use FW missions as a source of income, but people can only do it so often. Along with this, increase the LP rewards from plexing/anti plexing and fix the mission rats. Do not cap the rewards from plexxing and it will funnel people into plexes for isk generation. An alternative is to keep the seperate reward structures (VPs and LPs) and then cap the number of purchases per week/month/whatever from the LP store but not the VP store. Either way this forces people into the plexes for any income beyond a certain point, and helps to keep the isk/lp ratio from continuing to sink into oblivion.



Well I was thinking FW needed some more exclusive rewards that dont have to compete with highsec bear markets (AFAIK, the only items that cant be farmed in highsec by the legions of highsec missioners are the teir1 navy battleships, maybe navy capboosters too). Thats why I suggested VP for these rewards (to make incentives to fight over objectives, and at least alleviate (but not eliminate, i dont think thats possible) the impact farmers (who are in FW strictly to make isk and arent really "involved" in FW) on the values of the items obtainable from faction war (since maybe plexes will attract more pvpers and less farmers, making it harder to "farm" and not participate in FW).

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:05:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: chatgris
Edited by: chatgris on 17/06/2011 07:41:29
- Remove missions. Only way to get LP is to plex, something that the other side can take away from you, unlike a mission where you can just go away and come back later. It will force mission bears to pvp assuming that enough people care about plexes (which they should if it's the only way to make fw LP).

And to make the above work

- Fix plex spawning
- Balance the rats
- Faction/pirate ships get bumped up a tier

And FW could be a pvp nirvana.



I like the idea except I think under the current system most plexers are just carebears. So you are just moving the carebears from missions to plexes.

Until you notify the enemy militia about plexes being taken and do away with the rats so people can fit for pvp, plexing will remain a mostly pve activity.

Wasn’t it ank who said she did over 100 plexes in under a week and never engaged in any pvp? You can take away missions and give lp to plexers all you want but until something changes about plexing mechanics it will still be carebears earning the lp.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:15:00 - [63]
 

I agree with this logic. Its clear you have thought this through a bit. I just wish they would let the enemy militias know, so they could drop the npcs in the plexes, and we didn't have to fit our ships for pve in order to do the plexes.

Originally by: chatgris
Edited by: chatgris on 19/06/2011 11:56:31
Originally by: Mutnin

For those that argue about getting rid of FW missions and instead giving rewards for plexing, what makes you think it would be any different with the farmers from how it is now?



Because farmers would need to compete with pvpers, and more importantly, other farmers for their rewards. Someone who came in a pvp ship could seize the plex the farmer was working on.

Originally by: Mutnin

We already see or have seen tons of noob alts farming plexes back in the day with barely any skills using recyclable noob alts. Meaning if it's rewarding people will figure out a way to farm them just as they do missions, WH's, high sec lvl 4's ect..ect..



Yes, but it will be more competitive. You can't do another person's mission. You can take, and complete for reward, another person's plex. Consider the current situation:

You find someone's mission. You chase them out. They go somewhere else until you get bored and finish the mission later.

Consider the improved situation:

You find someone in a plex. You chase them out. If they come back, you get pvp. If they go somewhere else, you wait and complete the plex making LP/ISK.

Originally by: Mutnin

Added to this how should the other 50% of FW members make their ISk once the after DT crew farms them out for the day? Are the guys that log in later in the day just **** out of luck because we know CCP will likely never fix the spawn mechanics.



Fixing spawn mechanics, NPC balance are crucial for the plex replacing missions to succeed. If CCP won't fix these issues, they should not replace missions with plexes.

Originally by: Mutnin

Last of all what is real the problem with FW missions? I see people whine about them all the time and TBH I really don't see why. Yes there are farmers, just like anything else, so what's whats difference from any other way to ISK grind and why does it affect you so much? TBH I think the only problem is it's not "easy" to gank them and takes a bit of luck & skill added with patience, something that 90% of EVE player base does not have.



It's a pure pve activity in what is supposed to be a pvp portion of the game. It's my belief that the mechanics of fw should be pvp centric.

The mission runner has to severely screw up to be caught. I've made about 80B ISK running fw missions through all hours of the day, and have never lost a ship to players. I didn't run a stealth bomber, I flew a dominix (pre location nerf) or a gila usually solo (because it's more profitable that way, no alts along for the ride), sometimes for 36 hours straight on a weekend.

Originally by: Mutnin

TBH, I only wish there was a way to do FW missions in a PVP ship. When I first started doing them way back on the Minmatar side, I used to use a BC and had a decent amount of fights in them. Now days it's just too hard to move a BC around in any efficient manor to make it reasonable so bomber is the best option.



Moving a BC around is hard? I roam alone or with 2-3 people in a drake pretty much anytime I am playing. I used to rat in syndicate for hours in a drake as well. Moving a BC in lowsec is easy.

I do agree on the missions should be doable in a PVP ship. I joined the TLF to experiment, and I could do those missions in a pvp ship, was great fun. However, the issue still stays that someone who is just there to farm, you can't mess with them at all. It'd be great if there was a way to fail their mission, say a timer or something. But then, it's just a plex and hence my suggestion to remove missions and give rewards for plexes (along with fixing the damn plexing mechanics).

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:22:00 - [64]
 

I believe the context of that was that there just wasn't enough people plexing to provide pvp, not that she wasn't trying to pvp. So it would follow that if we attach actual incentives to it, more people will be drawn to plexing, and thus more pvp.

Chatgrus
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:30:00 - [65]
 

Julius Foederatus' southern charm and dashing good looks cause severe imbalances in FW gameplay.

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:30:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
+1 for defensive plexing alts! Can't wait to get my Caldari alt up and running. Go to Sarenemi, cap an offensive plex and get some FW LP. Open next plex and have my minimum skill Caldari alt and get some FW LP. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Once my alt gets some skills up I'll buy it a dramiel and we can do this in Vifr and Athounon where there is no WT opposition.

pvp nirvana!

Why would anybody want to tie anything into the plexing mechanic that is mind numbingly boring 80% of the time?

Make the LP/time potential be: Offensive Plexing > Missions > Defensive Plexing

How's that for a win/win? Oh, and make it so you need to clear the enemy npc's off the field to cap a plex. That part of the mechanic bugs me.


Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:47:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 00:52:59

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
So we have plexes where one side can take the point from the other, even if it takes 30 minutes, versus missions, where you would have to sit for 10 hours or however long it takes for the mission to expire. Seems like a no brainer to me, and you would actually get something for kicking the enemy out.

At least with plexing, the pvp would be based around control. The more plexes you can complete, the more LP you get. Conversely, the less plexes your enemy completes, the less LP he gets, and the harder it is for him to make isk.

TBH, all this about plexes replacing missions is just a band aid fix. What would be best imo is to tie system ownership at the end stage level to the LP reward system, and also have penalties for system loss in place that make a faction more willing to defend said system. Hell maybe a combination of the two. But regardless, the lack of purpose in system ownership is at the root of FWs perceived problems atm.


Except then you just make it wide open for the next obvious farm method of using noob alts in both Militias that require 0 skills. By having a alt in each milita you could then just put which ever toon in the plex that had control at that moment.

Now you have even easier farming and to top it off they can get LP's from both sides with ease.

I really think you guys are putting far too much emphasis on "out side" farmers. I fly around all over FW spaces and yes there are people running missions but it's nothing as bad as what you guys are trying to make it sound like.

I think it's more of the matter than people are mad because they don't get as much as they "used" to for their own FW farming so want to make a big deal out of FW farmers. Not to mention it's easy to see half you guys are also mad that it's not "easy" ganks of mission bears.

Again.. if I'm out trying to grind ISK to fund my PVP or game time, why on earth would I want to waste time risking a mission ship and possibly having to fly 16 jumps back to get a new one?

You guys are grasping on nothing more than a pipe dream if you really think people are gonna try to fight while on their grinds. Hell I used to fight during mine. I used a Navy Slicer & a bomber and fought pretty much anything but Dramiels that tried to camp my missions. Killed a few BCs, cruisers and several frigs like this, but also lost a few ships causing long time delays of getting back to the grind.

I eventually decided that while getting the occasional fight was fun, it was also too much of a PITA to go re-ship if I happened to lose, causing the grind time to be even longer.

This is exactly why any change will be just like it is now for 99.9% of the people running missions. They will just go dock up, cloak or move to the next because it's far too time consuming to risk losing your ship while you are trying to earn some ISK.

Right now IMHO FW mission work as intended but due to NPC's differences some sides have it a bit harder (ie Amarr & Gallente). Other than that it does what it intended to do, give us a decent ISK source that allows us to keep the meat grinder going with out having to leave for high sec for days of lame LVL4 farming.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:04:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 21/06/2011 01:07:27
Originally by: Dirk Smacker

Make the LP/time potential be: Offensive Plexing > Missions > Defensive Plexing

How's that for a win/win? Oh, and make it so you need to clear the enemy npc's off the field to cap a plex. That part of the mechanic bugs me.


You had me at clear the enemy npc's off the field - as long as they automatically respawn when a set of them is dead and the plex closes immediately after the last one dies off. That way capping a plex or griefing a WT isn't dependent on me orbiting a button.

But then the alts who ran FW missions will just kill NPCs and still collect rewards. No win situation - those bastard afk mission running alts ruin everything! Very Happy

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:18:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: chatgris on 21/06/2011 01:19:42
Originally by: Mutnin
You guys are grasping on nothing more than a pipe dream if you really think people are gonna try to fight while on their grinds.


I'm not looking for people to fight during their grinds. I'm looking to make some side ISK during my pvp. I am also looking for plexing to give me *anything* for chasing someone out of a plex and closing it (right now it feels like you lose when the opponent leaves the plex for you to capture). I could wait in a plex and make some LP while pvping, instead of just camping the tama gate in nourv for my pvp. (ofc, get rid of npc ewar, plex spawning fixes, faction ships getting kicked up a plex size etc to make this work).

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:48:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: chatgris
Edited by: chatgris on 21/06/2011 01:19:42
Originally by: Mutnin
You guys are grasping on nothing more than a pipe dream if you really think people are gonna try to fight while on their grinds.


I'm not looking for people to fight during their grinds. I'm looking to make some side ISK during my pvp. I am also looking for plexing to give me *anything* for chasing someone out of a plex and closing it (right now it feels like you lose when the opponent leaves the plex for you to capture). I could wait in a plex and make some LP while pvping, instead of just camping the tama gate in nourv for my pvp. (ofc, get rid of npc ewar, plex spawning fixes, faction ships getting kicked up a plex size etc to make this work).


Yes that's understandable, I wouldn't mind ISK while I PVP as well. But was a lot of talk of "replacing" the FW missions with that plexing idea, which is what I was replying to.

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.06.21 05:10:00 - [71]
 

The issue is that we have this entire part of the eve game that's supposed to promote pvp. But FW missions don't promote pvp. We have people who don't participate at all and are only here for the FW LP items. We have people who leave FW but keep their alts in so they can make isk. Hell, we have pirates who keep alts in to not only grief us but sell FW items from our store so they can keep pewing us. Only a ****** would say this is working as intended, and clearly we need something better.

I'd be fine with eliminating plexes as they are now, but you need some kind of objective-based system to control system occupancy. You can't make it based on kills for many reasons.

One idea is to eliminate missions, give tiny LP rewards for plexes and give huge rewards for killing enemies in contested systems and even bigger rewards for capturing a system.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.06.21 12:52:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Only a ****** would say this is working as intended, and clearly we need something better.


Better than what? What we have now is the ability to go out and make decent isk [i]on demand[i]. This means we get to choose when to make isk. Now, I'm not against changing around LP bonuses for PvP kills or plex/system captures, but the missions allow us to make isk when we want. We're not dependent on plex spawns or the enemy showing up. If I can only play for an hour, I can grab a few missions and go.

Again, we can hate all of the FW alts--despise them for taking advantage of the game mechanics if you want. But if I need to go out and pick up a couple hundred million in a week to replace ships, I'm glad it exists so I can afford to fly ships other than T1 frigs and cruisers.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:15:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
I believe the context of that was that there just wasn't enough people plexing to provide pvp, not that she wasn't trying to pvp. So it would follow that if we attach actual incentives to it, more people will be drawn to plexing, and thus more pvp.


Are you talking about Ank? If so you are just wrong. She thought pvp in eve was immoral. I’m not kidding. She created that thread not long after fw was put in game bragging how she did all these plexes and achived the highest fw title so fast with no pvp. She was a diehard carebear.

If you look in that thread you will see at least one poster already saw that the militias players need to be informed when plexes are entered or plexing will continue to be a pve activity.

More people plexing means more pvp? Yes but you have to hit a *large* threshold number of people doing plexes for it to make an appreciable difference. When she did this there still were allot more pilots plexing than there are now. Even then they were very far from having enough plexers to make it a pvp activity. Even if you remove missions you won’t get that threshold number where it is more cost effective to pvp for a plex than to just run to another.

You must also let the militias know when plexes are entered. Also they should drop the rats so you can fit your ship for pvp!

I agree it’s a good idea to make the plexes more profitable but it will remain pve as long as the enemy militia is not notified and there are rats there that you have to “tank”.

Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
Posted - 2011.06.21 14:52:00 - [74]
 

Warning: Wall of text

First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.

Were it not for FW missions I could not afford to replace my losses. I run FW missions, alone, in a SB where I have to navigate many jumps through enemy lowsec,where I can get caught and killed on a gate( occasionally I do), then run missions in a paper bag ship where I get neuted, damped, webbed, and, if I'm not careful, scrambled. Enemy wts and pirates enter these missions with regularity, and, if i am not careful, I get killed, ( as i do occasionally).Other guys use a buddy( requiring 2 guys to run the mission) or a T3( requiting some investment in both coin and training to run them). I run risks, and I lose ships doing it.This is not free ISK IMHO.

I also run plexes.Dont really like to, dont have much of an interest in it, but i do it for 1 reason and 1 reason only. I get fights doing it.As for plexes being broken, I ask a simple question.If they are so easy to run, why haven't any systems in Cal/ Gal war changed hands in ages???I'll tell you why. Because anytime a system gets close to flipping the other side comes out and puts up a fight. That's where I fight, if I am doing plexes.

Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.

I hear a great deal about how " this one blobbed and that one blobbed and ruined it and blueballed us". Well, shame on you then, that as a commander you were unable to bring about an engagement on your terms.A good FC knows how to dictate the terms of the engagement. I used to fly with an fc ( Andraz)who has now left militia who would take a 20 man fleet and fight a running battle with a 50 man fleet, and at the end of 3 hours he had shredded them, typically getting 20+ kills for about half a dozen losses.He did this by dictating the terms of the engagement, shaping the battlefield and moving and striking in a timely fashion, forcing the enemy to displace from his chosen positions and hitting them whilst they relocated.When they advanced, he withdrew his inferior force. When they fell back he attacked swiftly and picked off anyone he could.He maintained the initiative, dictated the tempo, got inside the enemy commanders decision cycle and exploited the confusion of battle to cause as much friction for the enemy FC as he could, whilst minimizing his own by controlling his fleets comms and making the commanders intent clearly understood to the entire fleet.This, IMHO opinion should be what FW warfare is about.That, and applying this ability to acheive strategic goals.If the game doesnt give you any, set your own.I can come up with half a dozen ideas where we could all get rich without running plexes or FW missions. It's what the big boys do in 0.0

The resources of Blackrise are largely untapped, and if they are they are by other alliances who dont even bother to commit significant forces to defend them.
Blackrise is ore rich. Noones mines there worth mentioning. There are 17 tech moons i think, in BR.

This is a war.A war is an act of violence to compel your enemy to fulfil your will. Militias should decide exactly what there will is and go and fight that war. I know what mine is. Going out and Jousting is not war. Random roams with no strategic objective is not war.its fun, its pew pew, its training. Its an isk sink. To my mind any real war should be waged for monetary gain, to build the economic backbone for a bigger and better war machine.

In short, we in FW are Lazy

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:23:00 - [75]
 

Here are some key benefits of FW missions besides the isk/LP:

1. You learn the warzone. It was many months after I had entered FW with a PvP corp (who scoffed at mission-runners) that I realized the benefit of having to zig-zag across Gallente space. No longer did I have no freakin clue where the fleet was on our roams without staring at a DOTLAN map.

2. You learn who lives in the warzone. Maybe even more important than the geography is learning what corps, and what kinds of corps, live in areas outside of the main pipes. That kind of info delivered to an FC could mean the difference between getting a fight or not, or not wasting 10 minutes of the fleet's time trying to get one.

3. Early intelligence. Running missions just before the normal fleet times? You can get valuable intel on the war targets, pirates, or unexpected visitors from nul sec that wouldn't be gathered by the normal forward scout or spy alt.


There's a few others dealing with the soft skills you learn just by being out there on your own in low sec, avoiding the sharks and completing somewhat risky missions, but those are the benefits for those who engage in PvP and do FW missions as an income source.


Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:23:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Tanaka Sekigahara on 21/06/2011 15:35:45
Gallente commanders are able, with 2000 less people in there militia, to field a fleet in about 1/4 the time it takes us, typically.Their response times are much faster.Their fleet is usually tasked and fitted for the particular type of fight they want to have.They choose their engagements and decline the ones not on their terms. Kudos to them.

Recently Caldari fleets have had a string of victories, wherein we were able to dictate the terms of the engagement, where the Cal commanders put out a proper fleet fitted to counter what they expected the Gallente to bring.I would like to see these wins followed up on and used to bring more pressure on the gals, as opposed to just going back and breaking the fleet.

What I dont like to see is when we go out in a huge fleet, let ourselves get eyescrewed by gal scouts, who then relay our fleet comp to Gal FCs who in turn are able to task their fleets for what we have brought.

Likewise, going out with a large fleet, when the enemy cant muster the same numbers leads to us gettiing " blueballed" only because we allowed our fleet to get scouted.More thought should be put into this.
Use 2 maneuver elements. Use a larger scouting element to drive off gal recon and scouts.Use deception.Telling the Gallente " ok hear we come, and if you dont come out we are going home" smacks of tactics used from before Nelson fought at Trafalgar.
You dont ask the enemy " please fight us".You make them.You do that by imposing consequences on them when they don't. This is where militia falls short.

Far as "blobs" go, near as I can tell, a blob is any fleet bigger than yours.Blobs are not the problem.
We in militia focus on game mechanics, and the science of war. War is both an Art and a Science.It's time we spent some effort focusing on the art end of it, as opposed to whining about game mechanics.

I do have 2 suggestions to help with game mechanics.

1)If occupancy is held for 3 months in a system, and all adjacent systems to that system, then system sov changes.The only stations that need change are the FW stations.Guaranteed if someoen is about to lose the ability to pull FW missions in an area they will sure as hell fight for it.

2)link the ability to run FW missions with rank in militia, rank that can only be gained by running plexes.You wanna run lvl 4 FW missions, then you better be a brigidier general in militia.would do a lot to get rid of guys who never fight or do anything for militia and just missions *****.

Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:27:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Dirk Smacker
Here are some key benefits of FW missions besides the isk/LP:

1. You learn the warzone. It was many months after I had entered FW with a PvP corp (who scoffed at mission-runners) that I realized the benefit of having to zig-zag across Gallente space. No longer did I have no freakin clue where the fleet was on our roams without staring at a DOTLAN map.

2. You learn who lives in the warzone. Maybe even more important than the geography is learning what corps, and what kinds of corps, live in areas outside of the main pipes. That kind of info delivered to an FC could mean the difference between getting a fight or not, or not wasting 10 minutes of the fleet's time trying to get one.

3. Early intelligence. Running missions just before the normal fleet times? You can get valuable intel on the war targets, pirates, or unexpected visitors from nul sec that wouldn't be gathered by the normal forward scout or spy alt.


There's a few others dealing with the soft skills you learn just by being out there on your own in low sec, avoiding the sharks and completing somewhat risky missions, but those are the benefits for those who engage in PvP and do FW missions as an income source.




THISWink

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:39:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: jackaloped on 21/06/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.


How many hours go by where you are just warping around looking for fight? What about waiting for a fleet to form to just go roaming in a large gang ganking stragglers? That is not my bag. FW should be exciting stuff. When you log in you should immediately be told where you are needed to fight and there should be literally dozens of fights going on in all the systems all the time.


Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.


The game mechanics are bad. FW should be involve constant fighting all through the fw regions. Instead its waiting for one blob to form to fight another blob that will then dock reship and chase the next blob. It’s really the problem for all of eve. FW should be the solution but ccp ignores it.


Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

In short, we in FW are Lazy


Yeah we want to play a computer game without having to trade in a real life like the “big boys” in null sec.

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:40:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
The issue is that we have this entire part of the eve game that's supposed to promote pvp. But FW missions don't promote pvp. We have people who don't participate at all and are only here for the FW LP items. We have people who leave FW but keep their alts in so they can make isk. Hell, we have pirates who keep alts in to not only grief us but sell FW items from our store so they can keep pewing us. Only a ****** would say this is working as intended, and clearly we need something better.

I still don't know why people are so intent on eliminating FW missions when those who only grind them have no effect on the war. Some people who only do them to support their FW PvP. They may have to go far away to run L4's in safety, or clone out to rat in nul sec. That leaves them far away from the fight when battle opportunities arise. Some would have to quit from time to time to pile up a ton of isk.

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
I'd be fine with eliminating plexes as they are now, but you need some kind of objective-based system to control system occupancy. You can't make it based on kills for many reasons.

Yes! Like some sort of control center in place of a bunker you need to defeat increasingly more difficult waves of npc's, both there and at spawns (maybe at locations given through hacking), that only a decent-sized fleet could complete totally. Make the isk payout go up exponentially so 1-2 alts can't grind the first few stages. They already have the fleet payout system down with Incursions, That would be great.


My fear is that I hear from time to time DUST won't be impacting sovereignty right at launch. That leaves FW as the system DUST matches will have an impact on. With no word on touching the FW mechanic in the near future, and with DUST development possibly being done around the current system, we're likely screwed with the same broken FW for a long, long time.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:49:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Dirk Smacker
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
The issue is that we have this entire part of the eve game that's supposed to promote pvp. But FW missions don't promote pvp. We have people who don't participate at all and are only here for the FW LP items. We have people who leave FW but keep their alts in so they can make isk. Hell, we have pirates who keep alts in to not only grief us but sell FW items from our store so they can keep pewing us. Only a ****** would say this is working as intended, and clearly we need something better.

I still don't know why people are so intent on eliminating FW missions when those who only grind them have no effect on the war. Some people who only do them to support their FW PvP. They may have to go far away to run L4's in safety, or clone out to rat in nul sec. That leaves them far away from the fight when battle opportunities arise. Some would have to quit from time to time to pile up a ton of isk.

The reason is economics. If there are no more missions then you get the fw lp by plexes. So they will run plexes in order to get lp. More people running plexes should lead to more pvp because either side can profit from them.


Originally by: Julius Foederatus
I'd be fine with eliminating plexes as they are now, but you need some kind of objective-based system to control system occupancy. You can't make it based on kills for many reasons.

Yes! Like some sort of control center in place of a bunker you need to defeat increasingly more difficult waves of npc's, both there and at spawns (maybe at locations given through hacking), that only a decent-sized fleet could complete totally. Make the isk payout go up exponentially so 1-2 alts can't grind the first few stages. They already have the fleet payout system down with Incursions, That would be great…..


Don’t you have plenty of opportunities to fight red xes in this game already? Incursions, high sec missions low sec missions, null sec pirate missions, anomalies, sleeper sites etc.? Do we have to make fw yet another opportunity to shoot red xes? It would be nice if ccp designed one single mechanic for small gang pvp.

Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:53:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Edited by: jackaloped on 21/06/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.


How many hours go by where you are just warping around looking for fight? What about waiting for a fleet to form to just go roaming in a large gang ganking stragglers? That is not my bag. FW should be exciting stuff. When you log in you should immediately be told where you are needed to fight and there should be literally dozens of fights going on in all the systems all the time.


Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.


The game mechanics are bad. FW should be involve constant fighting all through the fw regions. Instead its waiting for one blob to form to fight another blob that will then dock reship and chase the next blob. It’s really the problem for all of eve. FW should be the solution but ccp ignores it.


Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

In short, we in FW are Lazy


Yeah we want to play a computer game without having to trade in a real life like the “big boys” in null sec.

I'll be damned if i can find any kills in any board on your char, so obviously this is an alt of your main who I'm sure has a great many kills, so clearly you know of what you speak( not that I've ever seen you around) but I'm in fleets pretty much the whole time I'm online, and I get plenty of action.BTW, I am immediately told where to go when I log on, for the record.Im no great pilot, but im busy enough that i am neglecting other things in game i could be doing besides PvP, but I've got 30 kills last 7 days, nothing great, but keeps me interested.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tanaka+Sekigahara

How you doing?

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:02:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: jackaloped

The reason is economics. If there are no more missions then you get the fw lp by plexes. So they will run plexes in order to get lp. More people running plexes should lead to more pvp because either side can profit from them.

Oh, I hear that. The thing is CCP loves navy ships dropping in value. They want to see more of them fielded in PvP and exploded.

Originally by: Julius Foederatus

Don’t you have plenty of opportunities to fight red xes in this game already? Incursions, high sec missions low sec missions, null sec pirate missions, anomalies, sleeper sites etc.? Do we have to make fw yet another opportunity to shoot red xes? It would be nice if ccp designed one single mechanic for small gang pvp.


The smaller the number you design the mechanic to, the easier it is for people to use alts to grind them. I thought that's what you wanted to limit?

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:13:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Dirk Smacker
Oh, I hear that. The thing is CCP loves navy ships dropping in value. They want to see more of them fielded in PvP and exploded.


I agree with CCP. Faction war should be fought with navy faction ships! And petition CCP to have Arnerore Rylerave redesign the Gallente faction cruisers!

Mekhana
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:17:00 - [84]
 

Plexing is just terrible from the ground up. CCP needs to look at games like Team Fortress 2 and how the capture system works. Basically make the cap time last a lot shorter, add a series of cap points with a final or an optional single big capture point that is harder to claim and takes longer.

I'd say get rid of plexing altogether. It doesn't really encourage fights, sane people wouldn't even touch it with a 10 foot pole, except those that want to make the lives of certain individuals a living hell.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:40:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 16:50:27

Originally by: Dirk Smacker

Oh, I hear that. The thing is CCP loves navy ships dropping in value. They want to see more of them fielded in PvP and exploded.




If that's the case, they need to do a bit more to help out the ships than getting a lower cost. It's not so much their cost that keep's most Navy Faction Cruiser & up from being used in PVP, but the mere fact that most aren't much better than their T1 counterpart.

The Navy Frigs are all pretty damn good, but Cruiser & up only a few of the ships are worth flying.

Example the Navy Omen & Stabber are really what the T1 versions "should" have been. The Navy Vexor gets a bit better done bandwidth option, but the drone bay is so small you get suck with out any lights if you choose to go for the 4 heavy drones, which gimps the ship completely for dealing with frigs. The Caracal gets an extra launcher & mid, but is still no match for a standard Rupture or Vexor.

Out of any of them it's typically just the Stabber FI that sees much usage other than I once saw a fleet of Navy Augoror's with like 6 guardians in Met. Laughing

As for the BS's well these days you don't even see many T1 variants roaming around other than in high sec.

Master Andrew
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:18:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Master Andrew on 21/06/2011 18:24:58
Link station docking rights to capping systems - this could be used to restrict the oppositions ability to farm missions and force lp farmers to actually pvp to defend their precious fw agent systems.

currently there is no reason to run plexes - i know that alot of pvp happens in these plexes but honestly this is between a very small number of pilots who fight each other over and over all day - it would benefit fw as a whole to make a more direct link between controling systems through plexing and the strategic control over low sec (station docking rights/agent/pos anchoring rights etc).

But as we all know CCP doesnt care enough about fw to listen or read any of this thread so moan away - it wont make any difference, i mean ffs they didnt even turn up at their own fw event during fanfest,(so much for an apology and round table during the AT as we were promised)

Such a shame as fw is imho the best way for new players to get into eve pvp and learn - a good experience in fw can lead to a long term subscriber for ccp, in the same way joining fw as a new sub and seeing that ccp doesnt give a crap is a good way to discourage a new sub from staying in game if they are having any doubts.

I dont normally moan on forums but it seems so obvious to me from a business perspective that either ccp is collectively stupid or as many of us suspect ccp want to remove fw from eve, and running it into the ground helps them to reduce numbers until they quietly remove fw altogether Sad

Super Chair
Caldari
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:23:00 - [87]
 

One major reason I have been seeing the price of faction ships dropping is because of they are now on market rather than contracts. Undercutting someone is firstly, now cheaper (the deposit could be anywhere from 500k to a couple mil (or more) isk+brokers fees,depending on the value of the ship, and this is just for one ship, imagine the cost trying to pull down 20 ship contracts all at once to undercut) so it wasn't economical to continously undercut someone when faction ships were exclusively available via the contract systems. Now with the open market, you merely pay a 100 isk brokers fee to undercut someone. With the contract system you'd lose millions of isk each time you undercut.

Secondly, it's easier to undercut someone on market than with contracts. You can have 20 ship hulls on a single order and simply update them all within a minute to undercut someone. There was a little more time and isk involved in undercutting with the ships being exclusively available via contract, hence people usually werent arsed to be that competitive to make sales resulting in higher prices. Now you have probably the same number of people continously sniping eachother at the market hubs causing the value of the ships to drop. Rather than remain static.



And as far as the navy caracal goes, it gets 1 extra highslot, same number of mids, and 2 more lowslots than the original to fit powergrid modules to use that said extra highslot if you arent aml fit Laughing (And then be less speedy/ganky than the rest because the other races get to use most of their slots since they arent completely powergrid deprived like a lot of caldari ships are, not to mention if a caldari cruiser ship tries to fit to outspeed/out dps (hams/heavies) a simliar ship of cruiser size its pretty much a sitting duck to many frigs.) Which is why they're used for sniping (lol warp off before missiles hit) and killing frigs, not much else. Same can be said about a lot of other cruisers that are "stuck" into one role (Bait maller, frig killing caracal). Some other races have a little more flexability in how they can fit their ships, but then again not by much. I hope this winter when they rebalance cruisers they open up a world of possibilities besides baity amarr cruisers, frig killing caldari ones, and "I hope I can get into range before my drones/myself die" gallente ones :P

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:24:00 - [88]
 

I don't know why everyone thinks that when we say we want to get rid of FW missions it translates to not being able to earn any LP/isk. That is not the intention at all. What we want, or at least what I want, is a system where you have to actually participate and have a stake in FW in order to earn isk from it. Is that so wrong? Or are we really so devolved that we think all eve mechanics should be corrupted by farmers?

Allow me to put forward a proposal.

Lets start by giving proper LP for kills. Lets use a metric and do it proportionally from there. A start would be 10k LP for a t1, tier 1 battleship kill, 15k for a tier 2 BS, and 30k for a tier 3 battleship kill. We can spread it by damage done on the killmail or simply spread it evenly based on who's on the killmail. For t1 ships we can simply make the LP payout proportional to the cost of the ship, using the tier 1 battleship as a base. So a tier 2 BC would be about 5k LP, a tier 1 bc more like 3-3.5k lp, and so on.

Now, for plexing/system capture, lets make it so that it actually attracts people to pvp and fight over it. Lets say doing a plex in an uncontested system gets you something like 1k lp. It could be less than that for all I care. Now since system capture is on a sliding scale mechanism, the closer you get to the magic number of plexes, the amount of LP you get for completing a plex is double what it was initially. So if your side does about 10 plexes, and hypothetically it takes 20 to capture a system, the plex you're doing would payout 20k lp.

Lets have that be like incursions where it goes to every fleet member that completes the plex and is on grid. Maybe even ditch the timer aspect for tougher NPCs and treat it on a DPS dealt basis, much like incursions are done now, though not quite as tough as that. This keeps farmers from being able to go in with 1 alt and get their LP.

Of course, we'd have to treat defensive and offensive plexing differently to avoid the temptation for people to simply let the offensive side get as close as it can to system capture and only then have it come back down. Offensive plexing would function as above with the proportional payouts, but defensive plexing would be treated like we do incursions now. Each plex would be on the sliding scale, but you would only get the LP if you uncontest the system. That way it becomes a disincentive to allow the other side to get too close to system capture, because you could never get your LP if you let them get too far.

Then we need incentives for system capture itself. We need proportionally large benefits so that capturing a system rewards the sheer amount of effort put in to take it. Lets say that on system capture, everyone in the fleet gets a bonus of 500k-1m LP, with a further bonus of maybe 100k LP that goes to everyone in the militia, regardless of whether they were there or not. The reason for this is that plexing and system capture spans multiple timezones and players who aren't on at the exact right time of day should still get something for contributing, even if they're not actually there shooting the bunker.

At the same time we need penalties for losing systems so that people are sufficiently motivated to fight in their defense. Perhaps a faction standing hit when a system is lost, or maybe a direct LP loss. More controversially, I'd like to see some kind of system put in place so that a pilot is denied docking rights at station owned by a corp or faction that he has -5.0 standings with. Whichever faction occupies the space said pilot is in can waive these restrictions if he does not have such bad standing with them. That way, everyone who affects FW now, from enemy militiamen, to pirates, to the suppliers who give us our gear, would be in turn affected by the fortunes of the different contenders in the FW arena in which they live and play.

Deen Wispa
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:39:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 16:50:27

Originally by: Dirk Smacker

Oh, I hear that. The thing is CCP loves navy ships dropping in value. They want to see more of them fielded in PvP and exploded.




If that's the case, they need to do a bit more to help out the ships than getting a lower cost. It's not so much their cost that keep's most Navy Faction Cruiser & up from being used in PVP, but the mere fact that most aren't much better than their T1 counterpart.

The Navy Frigs are all pretty damn good, but Cruiser & up only a few of the ships are worth flying.

Example the Navy Omen & Stabber are really what the T1 versions "should" have been. The Navy Vexor gets a bit better done bandwidth option, but the drone bay is so small you get suck with out any lights if you choose to go for the 4 heavy drones, which gimps the ship completely for dealing with frigs. The Caracal gets an extra launcher & mid, but is still no match for a standard Rupture or Vexor.

Out of any of them it's typically just the Stabber FI that sees much usage other than I once saw a fleet of Navy Augoror's with like 6 guardians in Met. Laughing

As for the BS's well these days you don't even see many T1 variants roaming around other than in high sec.


agree as well. i'm not a big frig pilot but prefer to go with a cruiser. but i just don't like flying navy vexors. in fact, i traded my LP in for a Stabber Fleet due to the above reasons.

Someone mentioned about adding in Navy BCs which I'm sure would bring more people into FW. Though, I'd hate to see a Drake Navy issue come out considering the normal Drake is OP as it is.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.06.21 18:40:00 - [90]
 

I see you ignored all the questions I asked about how long it takes to find fun pvp under the actual mechanics and instead chose to post your killboard stats.

How many good fights do you get from the time you sign in until the time you sign out? How many hours per good fight?

Anyone can get a bunch of kills. Its not that hard. But finding good fights is a different story.

Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara
Originally by: jackaloped
Edited by: jackaloped on 21/06/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

First I would like to share my own experience in FW before I comment on anyone elses.I've been in in for over 3 years of the 4 years its been around.Currently i get PvP every day. I get solo fights, small gang and medium gang warfare and at least once a day( sometimes more) fights where each side fields over 30 ships.I lose ships, and kill ships with regularity.


How many hours go by where you are just warping around looking for fight? What about waiting for a fleet to form to just go roaming in a large gang ganking stragglers? That is not my bag. FW should be exciting stuff. When you log in you should immediately be told where you are needed to fight and there should be literally dozens of fights going on in all the systems all the time.


Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

Seems to me there are plenty of fights to be had, and when i cant enagage, its almost always not because there are no targets, but because a large enough fleet cant be mustered to engage the one that is already out there.This is a matter of organization and motivation, not game mechanics.


The game mechanics are bad. FW should be involve constant fighting all through the fw regions. Instead its waiting for one blob to form to fight another blob that will then dock reship and chase the next blob. It’s really the problem for all of eve. FW should be the solution but ccp ignores it.


Originally by: Tanaka Sekigahara

In short, we in FW are Lazy


Yeah we want to play a computer game without having to trade in a real life like the “big boys” in null sec.

I'll be damned if i can find any kills in any board on your char, so obviously this is an alt of your main who I'm sure has a great many kills, so clearly you know of what you speak( not that I've ever seen you around) but I'm in fleets pretty much the whole time I'm online, and I get plenty of action.BTW, I am immediately told where to go when I log on, for the record.Im no great pilot, but im busy enough that i am neglecting other things in game i could be doing besides PvP, but I've got 30 kills last 7 days, nothing great, but keeps me interested.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tanaka+Sekigahara

How you doing?


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