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Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:37:00 - [1]
 

Steam makes it possible for smalltime developers to make actal money, and we praised them for it. Ccp does pretty much the same thing for 3rd party programmers for eve and we just poop all over it. Explain your work.

Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:38:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Ayieka
Steam makes it possible for smalltime developers to make actal money, and we praised them for it. Ccp does pretty much the same thing for 3rd party programmers for eve and we just poop all over it. Explain your work.


It would have to be remotely the same thing for you to have a valid question.

Hint: there is no comparison here.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:40:00 - [3]
 

Really? Did Steam say to its customers "you have to pay us to be able to recoup the cost of a free service you provide"? Doesn't sound like them.

That is what CCP is doing, though…

Zamiq
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:47:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Ayieka
Steam makes it possible for smalltime developers to make actal money, and we praised them for it. Ccp does pretty much the same thing for 3rd party programmers for eve and we just poop all over it. Explain your work.


Except Steam provides a method of distribution where the was none. They provided a cheap platform that connected indy developers and less known studios with target audiences. That is why they get praised. CCP is introducing a fee on a system that is already functioning. 3rd Party app developers spend their time, time that they can spend playing EvE, on the apps. In many cases they don't ask for monetary reimbursement but rather for in-game ISK donation. Now, they will have to pay a $99 annual fee, just to have the permission to collect the very same donation. Do you see how this is going to impact them? They will need to spend money, or time and effort to recoup that annual fee.

Yes, someone might develop a great app and get a fee for it and the quality of the apps might increase but in the long term the only thing that is going to happen is that the player base will have to shell out more money, either by paying fees or donating ISK. That is why the CCP is not going to get praised, because the platform between 3rd party devs and the players is already there, we dont need any further "connecting". Furthermore, Steam provided a unique system, online distribution. Before Steam that method was unheard of. What is CCP providing here? No new service, no new features. In fact it can be argued that the reason we need 3rd Party Apps is due to the missing functionality in EvE, the apps are filling a hole left by CCP and now they want to charge an annual fee. That is why no one will praise CCP while praising Steam.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:49:00 - [5]
 

Impulse > Steam

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:50:00 - [6]
 

The only one that i can think of that comes even anywhere near close to this is Garrys mod, Steam gets 50 percent of his profits but they give him full access to the full source instead of just hammer.

Oh wait, CCP isn't giving anything better other then just trying to get their hands on moar money from people trying to offset their site costs with add revs.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:51:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 15/06/2011 21:51:10
Originally by: Ayieka
Steam makes it possible for smalltime developers to make actal money, and we praised them for it. Ccp does pretty much the same thing for 3rd party programmers for eve and we just poop all over it. Explain your work.


1) CCP isnt making it possible for small devs to make MONEY. they are charging them money to make isk from their sites.

2) People praised steam for something? lol I do my best to avoid buying anything on steam when i can. Its utterly stupid to have all your games tied into one login. This is literally worse then using the same password for all your sites. Its great for steam though, when your account is hacked. You need to re-buy all your games.

3) Steam is bloatware that takes longer to load then any of the games available on steam.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:51:00 - [8]
 

Steam also provides download services to free mods that are ad and donation supported.

Thread = Fail

Please close.

Patch Gatsby
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:53:00 - [9]
 

CCP owns the Eve IP. It's how they make money. Other companies would just unleash the lawyers on all the 3rd party stuff. All those people would get cease and desist letters and some would probably get sued. Then CCP would offer their own sites at extra cost. Instead CCP has basically offered to let these 3rd parties go into business with them. It doesn't mean that you will have to pay for the stuff. Some will be free and supported by ad revenue just like other free web stuff. Some will ask you to pay, but you only have to if it is worth it. Wouldn't it be nice if any of the agent sites were up to date for the new rules. Well if someone was making a little $$$ off the site they would probably have the motivation to get it up to date. CCP has created a business opportunity for everyone in the Eve community. Anytime there is even the hint that we might, MIGHT, have to pay a little more everyone freaks. I for one can think of very few entertainment options which give me the hours of fun I have with Eve for $14.99 a month. If I spent those hours in the bar, that would break me!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Patch Gatsby
Some will be free and supported by ad revenue just like other free web stuff.
That's just it: the ad supported model just got shot in the face (and left with the bill for the bullets).

Patch Gatsby
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:02:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Patch Gatsby on 15/06/2011 22:05:10
To explain further what many posters seem to be missing is that by paying CCP the licensing fee, the dev is buying the right to make money off of the Eve IP legally. One of the reasons the current content is free is because charging for it puts a dev in legal limbo. That makes it very hard to have a business based on it. Pay CCP $99 a year (a bargin in my book) to license the rights and you are a real business. You could get a loan with a legally sound business plan, you could go to investors, you could develop apps that won't get pulled when they find out you don't have the rights. This is a big opportunity for those who want to take it.
Response- This doesn't kill the ad revenue model. Pay the $99 out of the ad money, the rest is profit.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:03:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 15/06/2011 22:05:05
Originally by: Patch Gatsby
CCP owns the Eve IP. It's how they make money. Other companies would just unleash the lawyers on all the 3rd party stuff. All those people would get cease and desist letters and some would probably get sued. Then CCP would offer their own sites at extra cost. Instead CCP has basically offered to let these 3rd parties go into business with them. It doesn't mean that you will have to pay for the stuff. Some will be free and supported by ad revenue just like other free web stuff. Some will ask you to pay, but you only have to if it is worth it. Wouldn't it be nice if any of the agent sites were up to date for the new rules. Well if someone was making a little $$$ off the site they would probably have the motivation to get it up to date. CCP has created a business opportunity for everyone in the Eve community. Anytime there is even the hint that we might, MIGHT, have to pay a little more everyone freaks. I for one can think of very few entertainment options which give me the hours of fun I have with Eve for $14.99 a month. If I spent those hours in the bar, that would break me!


Wrong. Other developers allow their players to make 3rd party apps freely. Look at Tribes and Tirbes2, allowed nearly full client-side scripting.
World of Warcraft, allows third party plugins that also directly modify and add to the game's UI
Every game developer in the planet has always allowed players to create their own websites and ****. As far back as Duke Nukem's custom skins, and Quake's custom models.

There has never been a game developer that i know of yet who's charged their customers for the customer's work that benifits the whole game community... untill CCP anyway.

And where is this 'business oppertunity' exactly? They said that you STIL CANT MAKE REAL MONEY from your 3rd party stuff.... You just have to pay 100 bucks a year in order to accept ISK in exchange for your services (such as killboards).

In effect, you are paying CCP in order to improve their community. If anyone is getting paid, it should be the person developing the 3rd party program... not CCP.

Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:09:00 - [13]
 

People also need to remember that ccp isn't forcing these developers to make people pay for their apps and such.

1OfMany
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:11:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Patch Gatsby
To explain further what many posters seem to be missing is that by paying CCP the licensing fee, the dev is buying the right to make money off of the Eve IP legally. One of the reasons the current content is free is because charging for it puts a dev in legal limbo. That makes it very hard to have a business based on it. Pay CCP $99 a year (a bargin in my book) to license the rights and you are a real business. You could get a loan with a legally sound business plan, you could go to investors, you could develope apps that won't get pulled when they find out you don't have the rights. This is a big opportunity for those who want to take it.


Oh my god Patch Gatsby, you really are a CCP alt aint ya..... defending the mother company and their greedy little plans to make developers pay for using their ingenuity and skills to enrich the EVE universum ....

I wonder how much addons would dissapear if blizzard was going to charge creators of addons like Omen, DBM etc to become ' legit'

I use EHQ for out of game planning of skill training and bp management, but if that tool dissapears due to the greed CCP displays, also taking into consideration the buying of ships for dollars, im a goner from EVE as soon as the subscription ends for all my accounts.

BF3 MP , or that new starwars MMO will be out around the time my subs expire..... give me a reason to switch over CCP....

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:14:00 - [15]
 

Evemon, Evehq etc will be uneffected. The new rules apply to people who ask for isk in exchange for their program/service.

For example. eve-kill.net will need to pay 100 dollars a year if they want to continue charging players isk for their killboards. Same with battleclinic.

Other people who provide TS3, forums, webhosting or anything, in exchange for isk, will be forced to pay 100 dollars.


Being licenced does not mean they can charge MONEY for these services... that is still banned.
This only allows you to collect isk in exchange for your service. Even though you are not seeing a penny in actual real money from your service... they still want a cut.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:18:00 - [16]
 

Maybe CCP should make EVE playable without relying on these 3rd party tools before trying to kill them.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:18:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: 1OfMany
Originally by: Patch Gatsby
To explain further what many posters seem to be missing is that by paying CCP the licensing fee, the dev is buying the right to make money off of the Eve IP legally. One of the reasons the current content is free is because charging for it puts a dev in legal limbo. That makes it very hard to have a business based on it. Pay CCP $99 a year (a bargin in my book) to license the rights and you are a real business. You could get a loan with a legally sound business plan, you could go to investors, you could develope apps that won't get pulled when they find out you don't have the rights. This is a big opportunity for those who want to take it.


Oh my god Patch Gatsby, you really are a CCP alt aint ya..... defending the mother company and their greedy little plans to make developers pay for using their ingenuity and skills to enrich the EVE universum ....

I wonder how much addons would dissapear if blizzard was going to charge creators of addons like Omen, DBM etc to become ' legit'

I use EHQ for out of game planning of skill training and bp management, but if that tool dissapears due to the greed CCP displays, also taking into consideration the buying of ships for dollars, im a goner from EVE as soon as the subscription ends for all my accounts.

BF3 MP , or that new starwars MMO will be out around the time my subs expire..... give me a reason to switch over CCP....



I'm not quite sure how this is greedy. All these threads bashing CCP, but CCP has given us a free license. Up til now nobody could charge for their apps, and it was a vague area without definition. If you don't want to charge for a service or product, don't charge for it. CCP isn't really making much off the $99 licensing fee - that's quite a small investment.

Aside from the $99 annual license for those that offer PAID apps, I fail to see how CCP is actually charging anyone anything. Not only is it fair, it's far cheaper than other licenses. Just look at Apple's $99 fee + 25% off the top, and Unreal Engine's $99 fee + another 10% off the top.

Eve has what - 300,000 subscribers once you take away alts. If you sell to only 100,000 people an app for $1.50, you make more than enough to cover Apple's 25% skim + $99 CCP licensing fee. Think about this - CCP has every right to charge royalties, and they aren't. Wink

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:19:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Patch Gatsby
Response- This doesn't kill the ad revenue model. Pay the $99 out of the ad money, the rest is profit.
Since the ad revenue is only meant to somewhat offset the cost of hosting the free service (and in most cases, it probably won't even do that, much less create any net profit), there is nothing to pay that $99 out of…

So yes, it does in fact shoot the ad model in the face and leave the victim with the bill for the bullets.

Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:19:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Maybe CCP should make EVE playable without relying on these 3rd party tools before trying to kill them.

/amen

JeanPant Man
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:21:00 - [20]
 

Just dont ask for donations or dont charge for the service.

I must be a genius to have figured that one out.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:21:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc
Up til now nobody could charge for their apps


read the dev blog.

You STILL CAN NOT CHARGE MONEY FOR YOUR SERVICES. It is STILL AGAINST THE EULA.


The licencing only allows you to charge ISK for your service... and you have to pay 100 dollars to do that now.

Before today, you were 100% allowed to. They decided to monetize the community's work... for themselves.

Patch Gatsby
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:21:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Patch Gatsby on 15/06/2011 22:21:59
You need to read the dev blog again. It says that a paid license is only required for things that want to charge. There is a free license for not-for-profit freeware projects. How is this so wrong?

Mistress Lilu
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:23:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Really? Did Steam say to its customers "you have to pay us to be able to recoup the cost of a free service you provide"? Doesn't sound like them.

That is what CCP is doing, though…

I swear Tippia works for the CCP. All this person does is put negative remarks on everyones posts, supporting CCP..

Skymarshall GoofyGrpe
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:24:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Patch Gatsby
Edited by: Patch Gatsby on 15/06/2011 22:05:10
To explain further what many posters seem to be missing is that by paying CCP the licensing fee, the dev is buying the right to make money off of the Eve IP legally. One of the reasons the current content is free is because charging for it puts a dev in legal limbo. That makes it very hard to have a business based on it. Pay CCP $99 a year (a bargin in my book) to license the rights and you are a real business. You could get a loan with a legally sound business plan, you could go to investors, you could develop apps that won't get pulled when they find out you don't have the rights. This is a big opportunity for those who want to take it.
Response- This doesn't kill the ad revenue model. Pay the $99 out of the ad money, the rest is profit.


CCP WhiteKnight Alt detected, diaf.

Patch Gatsby
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:26:00 - [25]
 

Here is the quote from the Dev Blog-
•Open-ended - You can charge subscription fees, receive donations, sell your app in an app-store and more
•Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license
That sure sounds like you can charge real money to me, and states very plainly that there is a free license option.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:29:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Mistress Lilu
Originally by: Tippia
Really? Did Steam say to its customers "you have to pay us to be able to recoup the cost of a free service you provide"? Doesn't sound like them.

That is what CCP is doing, though…

I swear Tippia works for the CCP. All this person does is put negative remarks on everyones posts, supporting CCP..
Ehm. Try reading?

I'm not so subtly calling CCP idiots here (and in quite a few other threads this week), and you think I'm supporting them?

Are you completely ******ed or have you simply had some less successful brain surgery? ugh

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:30:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Patch Gatsby
Edited by: Patch Gatsby on 15/06/2011 22:21:59
You need to read the dev blog again. It says that a paid license is only required for things that want to charge. There is a free license for not-for-profit freeware projects. How is this so wrong?


Alright, the problem is simple.

DONATION sites and AD-sponsored "FREE" software is NOT POSSIBLE.

YOU MUST PAY.

So there is no FREE ware anymore, there is "I pay for everything" software with no way to offset the hosting/development costs - even if you give it up for free.

SO no, the developer is now forced to pay $100 to CCP, whether they took donations, or put up ads - OR to pay for hosting and bandwidth on their own WITHOUT ANY COMMUNITY SUPPORT.

So CCP is cutting off developers from their communities.

Period. End of story, that is the bottom line that is not written at the end of that blog.

CCP CUTS OFF FREEWARE DEVS FROM COMMUNITY AT COST OF $100.


Patch Gatsby
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:31:00 - [28]
 

I wish I worked for CCP, but I do work, and when someone makes money off of an IP I developed I expect to be compensated. If it was your work, wouldn't you?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:34:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Mistress Lilu
Originally by: Tippia
Really? Did Steam say to its customers "you have to pay us to be able to recoup the cost of a free service you provide"? Doesn't sound like them.

That is what CCP is doing, though…

I swear Tippia works for the CCP. All this person does is put negative remarks on everyones posts, supporting CCP..


If by supporting ccp you mean bashing them

and if by putting negitive remarks on everyones post, you mena she is being negitive to the op who is Pro CCP

and if you mean the exact oppitisite of what you postedd...

Then yes.

Postumius Aculeo
Posted - 2011.06.15 22:35:00 - [30]
 

Wow...mass reading comprehension fail!

If they don't want to charge, they don't have to buy a license - so all those free apps can stay free if the developers choose.

You can't supply IN-GAME SERVICES for money, but accepting donations, service fees, in-game currency, or any other compensation for third-party software that doesn't violate EULA or ToS is OKAY if you buy a license. All of you who are inventing the "only charge ISK" need to read it again, slowly this time.

Can we actually try reading and making sure we understand before we start spewing venom at CCP? They've just done something Blizzard hasn't, and offered to let players and software developers piggyback on their intellectual property, and you are flaming them for it!


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