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Glafri
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:39:00 - [1141]
 

LET ME BOLD AND UNDERLINE THE REALLY IMPORTANT PART


Originally by: Chribba
ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.

I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.

As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.

This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".

Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...

And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...

I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.

/c



How I missed this I have no idea. You boys done goofed and gone ****ed of Chribba.

I hope for the love of god you've not ****ed Wollari off this much.

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:42:00 - [1142]
 

We want to know. What about CSM ? They supported this idea or not ?

betty drunkenlord
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:44:00 - [1143]
 

Originally by: betty drunkenlord
Edited by: betty drunkenlord on 17/06/2011 08:28:54
Dear CCP,

What about a counter idea - pay 99USD a year to people who created and run websites that add functionality to your game. They have proved to be adding significant value to your game because of large visitors numbers. Dotlan, evenews24, evemon, eft and others saved you thousands or not millions of USD by not having to hire developers and pay them to create and maintain the functionality that is provided by those sites. 99USD is not much but should be enough to cover at least some of their server maintenance costs.

Seriously, your proposal is at least insulting to the community and people who spent many hours essentially for free doing stuff that enhanced your game and saved you lots of money. Who do you think your player base is - stupid addicted kids who eat propaganda from your spoon?Mad

I'm seriously ****ed off at you. No CCP you cannot haz my stuff.

- bd


In case CCP employees look at replies numbers instead of actually reading them let me copy and paste this message to CCP again and again...

Adrie Atticus
Mining and Industrial Services
The Irukandji
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:47:00 - [1144]
 

Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
We want to know. What about CSM ? They supported this idea or not ?


CSM never saw this draft, you'd know if you read the thread.

Incendia Everto
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:50:00 - [1145]
 

Eve is a great game.

The only downside of it, is the fact that we have to pay for every freaking thing already. We kinda accept that. CCP, you will have a horde of VERY angry subscribers, if you push this moronic bainfart through. You guys always claimed to listen to us, well..LISTEN NOW!!

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:51:00 - [1146]
 

Quote:

• CCP will license 3rd party developers to create commercial applications and services created using the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server.
• To become a licensee, developer must enter into a commercial license agreement with CCP. The fee for a commercial license is $99, payable annually by credit card or wire transfer (for identification purposes). We do not require further payments from developer or royalties.



I cannot emphasize enough what an incredibly BAD idea this is. I want my EVEMON; and I want my EFT; and my Battleclinic. The devs of these apps have been doing the EVE community a huge favor for years, for free no less. And now you want to charge them for it!!?

I think CCP has finally gone completely mental.

tex sharky
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:54:00 - [1147]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Quote:

• CCP will license 3rd party developers to create commercial applications and services created using the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server.
• To become a licensee, developer must enter into a commercial license agreement with CCP. The fee for a commercial license is $99, payable annually by credit card or wire transfer (for identification purposes). We do not require further payments from developer or royalties.



I cannot emphasize enough what an incredibly BAD idea this is. I want my EVEMON; and I want my EFT; and my Battleclinic. The devs of these apps have been doing the EVE community a huge favor for years, for free no less. And now you want to charge them for it!!?

I think CCP has finally gone completely mental.


I thought rmting/botting is killing eve. Boy I was wrong. CCP is much closer to kill its product than actually 'bad guys'.

Sethose Olderon
Gryphon Chancellery
Gryphon League
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:55:00 - [1148]
 

Edited by: Sethose Olderon on 17/06/2011 08:56:26

Originally by: CCP Zulu
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development.


Do you really expect people to believe that when your planning to institute a $100 per year license fee? If you truly had not intention of profiting from third parties, you wouldn't have set that fee so high. It's greed and you very well know it. It's really sad that no one believes you or your company now. Is there no dignity or ethics left in the world today?

At one time your company was a bright light in an ever expansive sea of darkness, and now you have sold your soul for the love of money also.



I sincerely believe, Mr. Hilmar Pétursson that if you continue to drive your company in this direction, you won't have much of a customer base left.

It's your decision.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:04:00 - [1149]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development.


Ironically, you're actually right: you're not gonna make much money off of them. Say they are 5 major 3rd party apps (like EVEMON, EFT, Battleclinic, etc); let's be generous, and make that 10. So, you'll make a whopping $990 dollars from them a year -- which, for a business as large as CCP, is ridiculously little. So little, in fact, that it's utterly negligible.

What you DO manage, however, is to p*ss off every single one of your customers, and the devs making these apps, in the process. Way to break it, hero!

Arvella Kadori
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:14:00 - [1150]
 

Usually it works like that:

1. Improvement
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

But much stuff you CCCP produced this Year is working like this:

1. Fail-"I-needz-moar-Money"-Idea
2. ???
3. LOSING PLAYERBASE!

And if you're continue with doing those awfull Idea's there is also a fourth stage called "Dead of EVE" but maybe you turn yourself 180 degrees around and get the real CCP back wich really cares about their Playerbase!

TL;DR: CCP!! DRUGS ARE NO SOLUTION!!


Deadly Dealer
Minmatar
POP NAVY
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:16:00 - [1151]
 

CCP could have avoided so much hassle if they had just announced that they were going to issue 3rd party licences to people who wanted to develop services on mobile phones for eve, this would then be in line with the fanfest announcement regarding capsuleer.

This would then make sense as there are mechanisms for aquiring phone apps and paying for a different way of accessing Eve would appeal to some people.

However the current Dev blog announcement just sounds like a money grab by CCP from all 3rd party developers. I pay CCP to play their game, I am not going to start paying 3 rd party developers to access the computer tools necessary to play Eve, especialy as most of these tools should have been provided by CCP in the first place.

This could become the thin end of the wedge as this could result in CCP outsourcing the development of in game tools via the back door of 3 rd party programs and expecting the player base to then pay for access.

We have already seen CCP introducing MT via Aurum which breaks the whole spirit of Eve’s subscription model. I am paying you monthly in return you give free upgrades to your game. Having part of the “free” upgrade be an MT store feels like I am paying you to mug me.

I just want to take this opportunity to thank all 3 rd Party programmers who make their sites available to the community. Your dedication and support is appreciated by us all and the fact that you do it is part of what makes the Eve community great.

It just seems a shame that CCP want to exploit the hard work you have done for the community by charging you $99 a year for giving us the functionality that they should have provided in the first place.


Dograzor
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:22:00 - [1152]
 

TBH if you keep this up CCP, WoW actually starts to look appealing.


darmwand
Blood Money Dark Angels
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:22:00 - [1153]
 

Quote:
CCP could have avoided so much hassle if they had just announced that they were going to issue 3rd party licences to people who wanted to develop services on mobile phones for eve


Huh? I don't see why the platform should matter. There are free EVE-related apps for mobile phones atm (eg. aura for Android) and damn CCP if they make them pay.

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:26:00 - [1154]
 

Edited by: Dray on 17/06/2011 16:57:57
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

betty drunkenlord
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:28:00 - [1155]
 

Originally by: Deadly Dealer


(stuff)

This could become the thin end of the wedge as this could result in CCP outsourcing the development of in game tools via the back door of 3 rd party programs and expecting the player base to then pay for access.

We have already seen CCP introducing MT via Aurum which breaks the whole spirit of Eve’s subscription model. I am paying you monthly in return you give free upgrades to your game. Having part of the “free” upgrade be an MT store feels like I am paying you to mug me.

I just want to take this opportunity to thank all 3 rd Party programmers who make their sites available to the community. Your dedication and support is appreciated by us all and the fact that you do it is part of what makes the Eve community great.

It just seems a shame that CCP want to exploit the hard work you have done for the community by charging you $99 a year for giving us the functionality that they should have provided in the first place.




This. Don't mug me ccp and don't exploit our elite 3rd party devs.

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:42:00 - [1156]
 

Originally by: Adrie Atticus
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
We want to know. What about CSM ? They supported this idea or not ?


CSM never saw this draft, you'd know if you read the thread.


If not saw, why we have CSM ? So useless.

Jottunn
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:43:00 - [1157]
 

this is actually a good thing, will have more time for noneve stuff after it gets implemented, exactly my whole evetime more time.

Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:46:00 - [1158]
 

Edited by: Hel O''Ween on 17/06/2011 09:54:54
Originally by: TheCatholic

The second class will be the developer that asks for ISK donations for the privilege of using their applications. These guys represent the bulk of the QQing as this class is by far, the trickiest of all. The ISK donations have a very real monetary value. I don't think I need to remind folks that approximately 400,000 ISK is equivalent to $15. These developers also represent the largest developer-base in the game. But the ISK donations remain in-game and are used to re-sub, while the cost savings to the developer is applied to their web hosting needs. They profit, but it all stays in-game.



First, I think you're off by a magnitude of 100 here. I guess you meant to say 400 mil ISK are worth $15, not 400k ISK.

Second, let me throw in some numbers. I would be one of those "App is free, but of course I do accept ISK donations." Here's the exact wording I use:

Quote:

EVEWalletAware is distributed as freeware. That means, you can use this application as you see fit, free of charge. You're not obliged to pay anything for EWA. The program is provided "as is". If it doesn't work to your liking or doesn't support features you'd like to see, you're not entitled to receive any updates. That said, you can of course send me suggestions for this application. Who knows, I might find your feature suggestion great and implement it.

You are allowed to use EWA's source and use/modify it as you see fit for your own purpose.

You may freely distribute any derived work (both in binary and source code form). You may however not charge any kind of fees for your derived work. Donations are, of course, OK.

If you like EWA, find it usefull and you're in the mood, donating some ISKs to the EVE character Hel O'Ween is much appreciated. But please restrict any donations to ingame money. Besides the fact that CCP forbids paying RL money for EVE related services, I've written EWA mainly to help myself, partially to help other EVE pilots, too. I've not written EWA to earn some RL money.



I first introduced my app in July 2008 and ever since then have updated, enhanced and supported it. So I'm doing this for roughly 4 years now. In that time I received 1,998,027,854.94 ISK as donations for it. This boils down to 42.5 million ISK/month. Not even close to a PLEX/month.

Spark's
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:53:00 - [1159]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar


I'd just like to take this moment to state in a very clear manner what it is you are doing here:
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Shocked at this move from CCP

tikktokk tokkzikk
Switchblade Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:05:00 - [1160]
 

So what stops people from paying $99 and charging real money for an app that give you isk?
Or make it trickier, an app that give you XXX isk when you get killed.

To me this sounds like CCP is opening their doors for RMT Rolling Eyes

But please decide fast! I dont want to waste more money on subscription if you decide to do suicide....

John'eh
Gallente
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:08:00 - [1161]
 

Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




tex sharky
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:15:00 - [1162]
 

Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:16:00 - [1163]
 

Originally by: tikktokk tokkzikk
So what stops people from paying $99 and charging real money for an app that give you isk? Or make it trickier, an app that give you XXX isk when you get killed.

To me this sounds like CCP is opening their doors for RMT Rolling Eyes


Charging $$$ (or plex) for in-game service is not allowed. Not now, not with the commercial license.

But yes, there are tricky cases and they all need to be covered.

That is exactly why CCP was so strict in their first version, they overshot their goal by far and hit all the wrong people, they just wanted to be sure to not allow RMT.

The more bordercases you allow, the tricker it gets.

It is difficult to root out the bad cases but not hitting the small, innocent guy.


This is our chance!

LET'S MAKE SUGGESTIONS HOW TO DO IT BETTER!




Dodo Pigeonfighter
Caldari
The Dodo Retirement Home
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:17:00 - [1164]
 

It's a brilliant idea. Maybe you should start charging your employees also. Paying people who work for you is just stupid.

tex sharky
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:24:00 - [1165]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: tikktokk tokkzikk
So what stops people from paying $99 and charging real money for an app that give you isk? Or make it trickier, an app that give you XXX isk when you get killed.

To me this sounds like CCP is opening their doors for RMT Rolling Eyes


Charging $$$ (or plex) for in-game service is not allowed. Not now, not with the commercial license.

But yes, there are tricky cases and they all need to be covered.

That is exactly why CCP was so strict in their first version, they overshot their goal by far and hit all the wrong people, they just wanted to be sure to not allow RMT.

The more bordercases you allow, the tricker it gets.

It is difficult to root out the bad cases but not hitting the small, innocent guy.


This is our chance!

LET'S MAKE SUGGESTIONS HOW TO DO IT BETTER!






want an idea?

make subsciption free for people who run top eve 3rd party services. At least 3 accounts free per person just like ccp employees as a modest thank you for all the work they have done


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:30:00 - [1166]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 17/06/2011 10:30:42
Originally by: Gnulpie


LET'S MAKE SUGGESTIONS HOW TO DO IT BETTER!







Here they are.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:41:00 - [1167]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/06/2011 10:41:28
So hold on a minute...

Let's say I make a private corporate website. Said site uses ads to generate a few pennies on the dollar to help pay for my server/hosting costs...money that comes out of my pocket to provide a service to my wingmates.

Now I just happen to have a tie-in to the API checking sovereignty and POS bits... and now I need a commercial license because I use ads to pay my server expenses???



Seriously CCP?


Un-believable. You've done some crazy crap in the past (micro-transactions come to mind), but this... SORELY disappointed. It should be sufficient to place copyright information in a visible and public location.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:49:00 - [1168]
 

Congrats CCP, if those proposed changes in the blog follow through without amendments, not only would you have have ****ed off the majority of folks in the EVE community, you will also stifle freeware 3rd party app development by raising the bar.

Any developers thinking of running a free community service (e.g such as DotLan, eve-survival, eve-agents etc etc.) based on ad/donation will walk away immediately with disgust. Remember, this is ontop of the server/bandwidth costs and spending their free will and free time maintaining/supporting the service for the community. Effectively, you're biting the hand that feeds - for what? Mere pittance in licensing fee (I just have to say wtf, did you lose a brain?)

Now, you may argue that for some cases, the revenue may more than cover for the costs :
- how sure are you for the majority of the cases?
- are you also morally right or wrong with charging that token amount license sum?

What keeps EVE alive is the goodwill of the community.
Throw that away, or chip it away with unreasonable changes, then you're looking at a dimmer future for EVE.

lady2isis
Caldari
Paxton Industries
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:57:00 - [1169]
 

Originally by: tex sharky
Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats






Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:01:00 - [1170]
 

Originally by: tex sharky
Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats







QFT.


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