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Charlie Aires
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:42:00 - [1021]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Xailia
....


Wrong. Most of the outrage is based on the fact that we have lost faith in them in general.

An endless parade of cow-dung, lies, failure and general mismanagement has eroded our faith in CCP so much that we have no choice but to always assume the worst.

And frankly they deserve it. Money-grubbing fools.


+1

Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:52:00 - [1022]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson

Wrong. Most of the outrage is based on the fact that we have lost faith in them in general.

That is the root of it, but if they were more amiable, forward, and open to feedback then threadnaughts such as these would be much less... frothy.

I agree with the money part, MT is pointless. In this case the $99 doesn't even get them anything, so that isn't really about the money.

Dyner
Minmatar
Midgard Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:54:00 - [1023]
 

Originally by: Xailia

I agree with the money part, MT is pointless. In this case the $99 doesn't even get them anything, so that isn't really about the money.


'cept a whole lotta Hate; CCP would make an awesome tank.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:56:00 - [1024]
 

Originally by: Xailia
Any time that you, CCP, are looking for community feedback on an idea via a dev blog, you should make it VERY CLEAR on the header (rather than brief mention in the body) of the dev blog that this is a preliminary draft and is in serious need of feedback.
e.g. "We are seeking feedback..." rather than "We are pleased to announce.."

Idea Most of the outrage over this was due to it sounding like a committed feature, instead of an early proposal.


Not exactly, the very fact that someone thought this was a good idea is pretty offensive - even as a first public draft.
I have to wonder what genuinely horrifying ideas they threw out during the meeting that prepared this draft, ideas that made this seem reasonable?

Any suggestions? I think the following were probably considered and discarded:
* Kick a puppy each time Somer makes another billion ISK.
* Require biometric confirmation of identity to get a developer licence - but the old fashioned way - mail a finger or an eyeball.
* For his contributions to EVE, make a statue of Chribba. A frozen carbonite statue with him inside it, sitting in Hilmar's office.

Athellant Nardieu
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:59:00 - [1025]
 

CCP,

If this wasn't about the money, then why are you charging $99? If you just wanted to know who was using your IP, then you could charge $1 instead.

Dyner
Minmatar
Midgard Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:59:00 - [1026]
 

Quote:
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=901


"The first time Dan from accounting was invited to a Dev Meeting."

Laughing

Skukurai Minthis
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:07:00 - [1027]
 

I have seen enough of the websites and tools which I know and love already state that the implication of this will cause them to shut down. I understand the reasoning for charging, however I do not agree with it.

Mechanoid Kryten
N0VA 5
Brainfarts
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:08:00 - [1028]
 

Originally by: Dyner
I guess my biggest question is:

How "stupid" are you people that attend Fanfest? I ask this because of this part:

Quote:
At this year's Fanfest CCP hosted the first Dev Track in what we hope will be a regular event. To kick off the event I gave an exciting announcement about monetization


So...were you all to drunk to call CCP out then?

I mean, I wasn't there, but it sounds like it wasn't openly opposed...boo-ing, shouting, maybe some stuff thrown (like plastic cups; nothing deadly) at the Dev Booth.

I love the Internet..."Ball-less Wonders" in 'Real Life'; Heroes 'Online'. <-ya, that's right, I'm ****ed. You attendees didn't protest this; if you did....YOU FAILED 'PROTESTING 101'.

...lol...charging money for what you once provided free (API).


I was there. I assure you it was all about an unspecified fee to allow capsuleer to exist despite iphone app store charg3e breaking eula. They took that good idea and extended it to every 3rd party app even that is solicing voluntary donations. Believe me I had no idea it can get so ugly from adding an option to iphone devs to taking away my coding instead of mining gaming style. And here I was worries all this time th ey would break mining to make it more like wow where u can't afk to code ...and they broke coding instead.

dEEpdenim
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:10:00 - [1029]
 

Dear CCP stuff,

I think you are moving in right direction, especially with new API under development.
Therefore, the announced price and terms are something you definitely need reconsider.

I have some experience to make 3rd party application, particularly for "World in Conflict".
I would love to make something for EvE as well. Unfortunately, with existing API functionality there is no much room for fundamentally new applications.

Personally, I have no problem with 99USD (I prefer 49,95 tho) annual license fee for commercial (business) license as far my App can generate "some" revenue in one for or another and this revenue will cover my license and operational costs.

You many times stressed that CCP is business organization, and for us is just the game. I agree, you have full rights to use and manage your IP as you wish, but it should be a bit different manner. And if you want to to get a cut of profit one way or another it is just fine. Just make it like many other companies do: enroll 3rd party applications development program.

It can include, for example, proper SDK, documentation, Ads support, sponsorship program, promotions, etc... You name it.
Of course, it will require some effort and resources on your part. But I have no doubts, you will get huge benefits in return.

Let me give you just one example: Kill Mail Verifier/Converter. I will glad to see such service available, ads supported, small fee based (with ISKs too). Just add unique ID for each KillMail (honestly, I was surprised in first place why it missed). And With API functionality, available only under Aps development program, 3rd party App can request original KillMail in English, German or Russian. Or leave convertation into other language to App.

Let people focus on theirs business if they want to, expanding services around your core product.

But for such applications, de facto part of EvE as EFT for example, make this lenience fee symbolic, like a buck per year, since your lawyers need "proper" established "agreement" to let them accept donations.

Just make it win-win for everybody

gl, hf, bbq









Uglavitch Nefrex
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:14:00 - [1030]
 

I find this disgusting CCP. You are getting too greedy.

Vigoth Ritic
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:18:00 - [1031]
 

Did Sony "ok" this action?

Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:28:00 - [1032]
 

Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten
Two things bother me in ccp zulus response. One is the emphasis on control. Why? To what end? In my experience eve players are good at shooting down less than perfect 3rd party code.


That is not the actual focus of that, think more of the lines of preserving copyrights, making sure that people do not run off with what CCP has made for things not related to EVE, and such. But also, for example, think of those Apps on the android or apple stores where people make money off selling (useless) cheat codes and exploits and wannabee protips for EVE for a few dollars. I recently petitioned another one of those, and while that cost only 2 euro, it had already made 570+ sales. And that was just one of plenty.

What is missing from the CCP side really, is good clarity on where their priorities are, what their interests are, what they would like to see treated carefully but where they are open to feedback, and a general view on what their perspective is on this situation. This so that customers can provide their own perspectives, and other elements of the equation. And from that, CCP can make a well corrected business model out of this, which does not hurt user synergy, but stimulates it while preserving CCP's interests.

We had something very close to that at the roundtable at fanfest, but for unknown reasons none of that seems to have made it into the process that resulted in this devblog. Why? No idea. That is up to CCP really.

Either way, there is another opportunity here for both sides to sit down at the table, poll brains, combine perspectives, engage in clarity on priorities and concerns, and come up with something mutually beneficial.

Demy Slade
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:32:00 - [1033]
 

Edited by: Demy Slade on 16/06/2011 19:33:58
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


Reasonable approach indeed. I suggest a lot of Clarification starting off with what you actually plan to acive if it is mainly a protection of intelectual property i think you should lower that fee down a bit and rather go for an Annual percentage payment. Also i'd suggest that you start up a voluntary Programm with Free Licenses for non Comercial Applications of your IP. That would in my eyes include a lot of services and service sites rendered. Please watch the backdoor of donations. If a person is not requiered to make a payment it is not a Comercial Gain for the other Party. At least it is not defined by any Comercial Law in the EU i know of. Furhtermore i'd suggest to reword the Intro into "Great News for Developers wishing to profit from their Applications with our Blessing"
You should imidiately rather work with future buisness partners before you decide to announce costs. Makes you look bad. Just my two cents on quiet a PR Desaster that could have been avoided.

[EDIT]
The so called control of their Database is their Right as Company. Every asset has a value and so does the API and it has to be fixed in Annual Reports just what that assets are.

I also would like to point out in case it got lost in the storm that if you include ISK Based services into a "Comercial" Legal definition you also define ISK as a Tradegood that got licensed and paid for with that very License. Just wanna save you that shoot in the knee.

Cheers
Demy

runde trunde
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:34:00 - [1034]
 

i could spend 1 hour typing 5 pages of rage and why this is a stupid idea . but im gonna cut it all down to .. DONT . just stop everything your currently doing .. turn around and proceed

MadMax RuS
Fremen Sietch
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:43:00 - [1035]
 


  • Rmt cartels have won on all fronts around the galaxy. You're doing nothing

  • Tournament's getting more and more ****ty every year, I won't be surprised if you will not broadcast group stages next year.

  • Now you're trying to charge Chribba, Battleclinic\evenews24\etc owners for doing a good job and helping your universe to be better and more complete.

You're digging your own grave ccp


Mechanoid Kryten
N0VA 5
Brainfarts
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:46:00 - [1036]
 

Originally by: Mitchello
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten
Two things bother me in ccp zulus response. One is the emphasis on control. Why? To what end? In my experience eve players are good at shooting down less than perfect 3rd party code.


That is not the actual focus of that, think more of the lines of preserving copyrights, making sure that people do not run off with what CCP has made for things not related to EVE, and such. But also, for example, think of those Apps on the android or apple stores where people make money off selling (useless) cheat codes and exploits and wannabee protips for EVE for a few dollars. I recently petitioned another one of those, and while that cost only 2 euro, it had already made 570+ sales. And that was just one of plenty.

What is missing from the CCP side really, is good clarity on where their priorities are, what their interests are, what they would like to see treated carefully but where they are open to feedback, and a general view on what their perspective is on this situation. This so that customers can provide their own perspectives, and other elements of the equation. And from that, CCP can make a well corrected business model out of this, which does not hurt user synergy, but stimulates it while preserving CCP's interests.

We had something very close to that at the roundtable at fanfest, but for unknown reasons none of that seems to have made it into the process that resulted in this devblog. Why? No idea. That is up to CCP really.

Either way, there is another opportunity here for both sides to sit down at the table, poll brains, combine perspectives, engage in clarity on priorities and concerns, and come up with something mutually beneficial.



Good point on control. If control means botting sites go down I want more of it. Could b because I never venture outside the for isk realm and into for cash realm I am not aware of these things. But if ingame isk scam and plex ganking r ok then even isk scamming via fake apps should b legal. Sorry couldd not spell better or edit quote using phone at work. I fully support any ccp control on ppl asking for cash. Vague words here from ccp now make me expect the worst esp on this issue. I may hav missed that round table. Blame the documentary guy w the camera and being drunk.

Prince Spiderman
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:51:00 - [1037]
 

Looks like some Senior Account Manager have taken control over CCP?

You guys better listen to the community because you deliver the game but the community and customers will deliver the success. No game, no EVE, noone cares. No costumers, no EVE, no CCP. You should care.

Thanks for listening and thinking!

groentenman
Krannon of Sherwood
Carthage Empires
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:52:00 - [1038]
 

Dammit CCP, can't you see that most of the 3rd party developers made their applications because they love EVE so much and wanted to give something back to the community? Charging them for something that they build for free is just a ******ed thing to do! Running low on cash due to the development of dust 514 which a lot of people don't want or did you guys blew your annual budget on PS3 licenses?

Martin Lloydd
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:57:00 - [1039]
 

Originally by: Pneumon Blaster
We are already Paying for the privilege of doing CCPs job - if people are joining mass testing - that's ONE BIG LOL for me. Never seen company using their customers as testers who paids for testing. LOL


You... have heard of Microsoft before, right?

This is actually quite a common occurance for a large host of development companies. :)

Royston Townhead
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:59:00 - [1040]
 

Originally by: MadMax RuS


  • Rmt cartels have won on all fronts around the galaxy. You're doing nothing

  • Tournament's getting more and more ****ty every year, I won't be surprised if you will not broadcast group stages next year.

  • Now you're trying to charge Chribba, Battleclinic\evenews24\etc owners for doing a good job and helping your universe to be better and more complete.

You're digging your own grave ccp




+1

And 1 more thing



I was intrested in dust 514, but now you can just put that right up your ass, and give us, the fed-up, now jaded capsule fan, some proper content, AND THE TRUTH. Is that too much to ask?


Rapier Gir1
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:00:00 - [1041]
 

Originally by: Shonion
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





Would you fire every 'tards who guessed this idea? Thank you.

EliteXHitman
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:00:00 - [1042]
 

Its a sad day when CCP cant fund anything and gets hacked....if this happens it proves CCP is strapped for cash and may look like its time to look for a diffrent game to play because next step will be bankruptcy as the next thing CCP needs to deal with :p

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:03:00 - [1043]
 

Hey CCP, could you plz stop posting 'drafts' like that like they are already decided on and this is the way they will be implemented? You keep scaring the **** out of us...


Seriously, what is it with companies that makes them SO bad at communicating with their customers?

Nardman
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:05:00 - [1044]
 

Originally by: Xailia
Any time that you, CCP, are looking for community feedback on an idea via a dev blog, you should make it VERY CLEAR on the header (rather than brief mention in the body) of the dev blog that this is a preliminary draft and is in serious need of feedback.
e.g. "We are seeking feedback..." rather than "We are pleased to announce.."

Idea Most of the outrage over this was due to it sounding like a committed feature, instead of an early proposal.


The way it was worded, it most likely was a committed feature until they saw they were about to **** off the vast majority of their customers and ALL of the people that are developing these 3rd party aps. As soon as they saw the feedback, it was damage control time: "Uhh, just kidding, this was a first draft of a terrible idea! haha.. ha ... ahhhh".

Although that wasn't why people were ****ed. People were ****ed because of how this would stymie the development of these 3rd party aps by charging people who spend their free time to offer them to the community for free. The way it was worded it came off as a big "**** you" to the entire player base.

It is their company and they can do whatever they want with it, but I'd assume alienating the majority of their player base and the select talented few that makes their game much more playable would be a bad idea.


If money truly "isn't the issue" as CCP stated, they should just include the license as part of the 14.95 subscription fee. Have a check box in the account management pages that says something along the lines of "enable license" that would allow people to develop these programs. Since money isn't the issue, again as CCP stated, just have people agree to the license when they develop programs like this, why the need for the $99 "lol it's not about money" fee?

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:08:00 - [1045]
 

Edited by: BeanBagKing on 16/06/2011 20:20:32
This makes me really sad to see. I feel like it will destroy Eve's community, and I'm pretty sure it will. I haven't seen it directly, but I'm told sites like eve-files, dotlan, Evemon, etc will all go down.

People put a lot of hard work on their own, unpaid overtime, server expenses, etc into makeing free to use apps. Most of the time any donations they ask for or ads they use don't come near to paying the operating costs along, to say nothing of turning a profit. These people don't make a living off of this.

Your talking about charging $100, more than the anual server costs required to run these things, for free-to-use tools created by the community. From my understanding, you want to charge this to people that aren't even charging for their end of service (donations and ads aren't charging, it's just trying to minimize losses). Your throwing a ton of legal red tape and fees into the hard work people have put into what should be a fun game.

Don't do it, please drop the idea all together CCP. I see nothing wrong with going after people trying to turn a profit off your IP (i.e those that charge real money for use/items), but thats totally different than charging community sites a rediculous (or even any) amount of money. Even if I'm understanding this wrong, I just don't see a point to it, drop the idea all together.

Last edit: If you -really- don't want to make money, your just looking for a way to track/control your IP, charge a $1 fee, or make it a free service you have to sign up for. I know your interested in guarding what is rightly your property. However, I don't think you realize just how much $100 is to some of your players, especally for services they already lose money on even after ads and donations. Personally I'm not buying the "it's not to make money" for $99, and if that's just to break even on then cost of the service, then all I can say is that's a rediculously expensive service that people don't seem to want to begin with and will only result in the death of huge sections of community sites.

/No Support
/NOT Signed

electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:15:00 - [1046]
 

I'm not understanding this. If I put on my program "donations of ISK accepted" I would have to buy this license?

Or what if I don't say anything (or even say "donations refused!"), and someone donates ISK anyway? Will I have to buy the license because someone gave me ISK for my program even though I said nothing about(or refuse)donations?

Or is it that if I wanted to charge people actual dollars to use my program, then I would have to buy said license?

Aganola
Amarr
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:17:00 - [1047]
 

Edited by: Aganola on 16/06/2011 20:20:25
Edited by: Aganola on 16/06/2011 20:19:01
This is SO NOT GOOD!

Even if it's a bloody draft. The fact that they actually published means to me that they are very seriously think about this.

I fully disapprove this blog! Every single program that was made by third parties was made to overcome

YOUR design shortages

and lack of basic understanding of player needs.

If you really want to charge for third parties, then

ASK FOR ROYALTIES FROM THE ACTUAL MONEY that was donated!

Evil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

Joanaz
Minmatar
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:22:00 - [1048]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


I hope you learned something from this.


Yeah, right!?
Evil or Very MadEmbarassedEvil or Very MadEmbarassedEvil or Very MadEmbarassed

Kane Molou
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:26:00 - [1049]
 

I find this a joke.. this along with everyting else that CCP is doing of late is making me seriously reconsider if CCP deserves ANY of my Cash..

It seems to me that CCP is getting 'Greedy' lets take a look at the other big game that allows people to make things for it.. oh yeah that would be the annoying WOW.. which oh yeah your NOT ALLOWED to charge money for.

Now lets look at some other software being 'released' One of which would be the UnReal Development Kit, which oh that's right you only PAY money for if your using it for Commercial purposes such as.... making a profit from it.

Telling Developers that they now have to pay money to be able to develope anything for eve is a joke, by rights CCP should be paying Developers half the time they are working for free and out of good faith, they have for years not been able to make money..

Add to this that all of this is hitting at the same time as they announce their Real Money Microtransactions and you start to really wonder what CCP is more concerned about, their IP or their 'wallet'..

If you look at the posts and back at Fan Fest CCP claims they 'listen' to the player base, they claim they list to what we want and give us what we want.. and yet I do not see them doing that, what I see is them saying that they are goign to listen then ignoring it all and just going straight for the wallet.. Does any one else remember ANY mention of MT's during Fan Fest's main Videos? I've gone over them and I honsetly can't remember them ever mentioning it face to face with their fans, I wonder if it was because if they mentioned that:

1. your going to have to pay Real money for half of Incarna..
2. your going to have to start shelling out REAL money for 3rd Party Apps.

That they would have had a riot on their hands at Fan Fest?

A Little Girl
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:34:00 - [1050]
 

Hello Mr Accountant Sir who is now running CCP and coming up with these ideas. Please give control back to the game developers and people who care about the game and don't think $$$ is more than everything else. Thank you Mr Accountant Sir.

Signed.

A Little Girl


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