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Innominate
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:06:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked

For the sake of the future of eve I hope you expected at least a more muted version of this response.

Quote:

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.

2) Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.


It sounds like your "bizdev" department knows nothing about the game except figuring out how to maximize the amount of money squeezed from players.

Quote:

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.


I'm sure your "bizdev" department has considered the hundreds of tools and thousands of developers who this potentially impacts. Working from a stupid unrealistic perspective that people want to pay to develop their tools to play eve, you have 1000 developers(given the number of corps and alliances and huge number of tools out there, this number is probably low) paying $100 a year. Well, 100k a year isn't huge but it's all free money.

Quote:

4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.


No. It's not tricky at all. There is no need whatsoever for any of the licensing bull****.


Quote:

Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



This is why you're introducing a $100 a year obstacle in front of virtually every person developing anything eve related, while at the same time promising to provide no documentation, technical support, or even a working API. The entire purpose of the dev blog is summed up in it's title.

Monetizing 3rd Party Apps

You're not helping 3rd party developers monetize their applications, you're trying to monetize other peoples work.


Silicon Sailor
Northgate
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:07:00 - [332]
 

Wow, you managed to **** off Chribba

<sarcasm>Well done CCP.</sarcasm>

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:08:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
that's a legal slippery slope


This is why you need to abandon this altogether. Its a huge can of worms that's going to very quickly turn into a gorgon and kill us all. :-/

Sorakage
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:09:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked


I see this as proof that you are all disconnected from reality. This is rage? CCP CEO tweeting that we are whining? You have fallen in the category of despicable people who have forgotten from where they started.

Originally by: CCP Atlas

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.

Just for the fact that they thought this up they deserve to be fired. They have no contact with reality. This is not *draft* as even CCP CEO tweeted that we were *whining* to their plans to ... **** eve ? Do they know that they would not have the job they have if it was not for 3rd party people ? Your game is that ****ty that it would not be where it is without community support sites.

2) Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.

Originally by: CCP Atlas

I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

NOWHERE did you state this *might be revised* fail backpedaling and crisis management.
Originally by: CCP Atlas

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.

I see it perfectly sensible to charge a fee for those who would make RL money out of it on a app-store. And thats it
Originally by: CCP Atlas

4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.

Thats what you people always say. Until now I was neutral with all the **** you did but I am not joking that I will quite EVE if this happens.


You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.


Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:09:00 - [335]
 

Charging money for nothing other than dropping a license restriction that literally no one cares about anyway and that you cannot enforce in any meaningful capacity is pointless.

Everyone will ignore this program and you will be powerless to do anything about it. No one is interested in paying CCP $99/yr so that they can continue running their website that you have no capability whatsoever to shut down in the first place.

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:10:00 - [336]
 

ANNOUNCING LE SKUNKS LATEST THRID PARTY AP



For only 200 dollars, Le Skunk will review your Eve-O forum post and tell you the likelhood of a community rage response.

Discount to CCP staff members of 15%

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:10:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Chribba
ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.

I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.

As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.

This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".

Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...

And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...

I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.

/c


QFTCool

Guess you're gonna have to get your veldspar tattoo removed mate (and/or get the license info tattooed on your other arm...)


WTF CCP!!!????

Emilya Tatsuki
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:11:00 - [338]
 



This is exactly what it is, a way to kill RMT
Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence

Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license
will do two things:

Arrow1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued

Arrow2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.

Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope
it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers

Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.


Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.

I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION)
but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY

Rolling Eyes
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.


How dare a business want money.
And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.

They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it.
The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)

but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little.
either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it


Ghoest
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:13:00 - [339]
 

I dont even use apps or anthing that requires my API and I think CCP is being greedy pigs.

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:13:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki

but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little.
either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it

[/b]


By that you mean "they have the lack of business acumen to try and implement something that makes the people who support their game with services they themselves are too incompetent to implement run away screaming" right?


Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:14:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: Don Pellegrino on 15/06/2011 20:17:01
How hard is it to understand that you guys can prevent 99% of the PR ****storms just by asking the CSM first?

Why didn't you ask them first? Are you intentionally trying to make your customers mad and thinking about unsubbing?

HOW HARD IS IT TO ASK THE CSM FIRST? They have learned about this at the exact same time we did.

EDIT: Actually, you should publish every devblog in the CSM's private forum to make sure it doesn't contain sentences that could be badly interpreted.

Brokers Clone
Amarr
Northgate
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:14:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked

What the **** did you expect?!?


By now? I expected 20 pages....

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:14:00 - [343]
 

CCP Atlas, do the smart thing: delete the devblog, delete this thread, and tell BizDev to delete this idea and to never, ever again do such an astoundingly dumb thing and try and make you take the fall for it again.

Do this now and we shall never speak of this again.

That's the deal.

Otherwise we will - and this is a promise - speak of this endlessly, everywhere, to everyone. I hope you enjoyed all those "best community" awards, because if you don't follow my advice, you'll never get another one ever again.

Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:14:00 - [344]
 

Well, I agree with most of the posters here. Fansite thats are simply that and not hugely complex sites should probably retain the current fansite agreement in all fairness or a comparable non-commercial simalcrum.

The reception of ISK = commercial is something that I would question, not that anyone has ever given me any ISK. Mean gits. Very Happy However it is very clear that this is an area of concern.

Generally though, I think people should also raise their awareness and acknowledge there are sites that do not engage with the fansite program and that's because they want to continue with unfettered advertising. By unfettered, I mean they have ISK selling ads on them, go have a look. Many will be (and are) upset at this for varying reasons so don't get too worked up.Twisted Evil

In the cases of EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server users, a commercial charge is being requested here and a by association a requirement to clean the ads, but again the fee is something to be looked at I think. Looking at the wording in the OP and update, it looks like the fee idea is here to stay but there is movement on the amount. Perhaps then a tiered approach?

Tier 1: Sites that use Eve API for auth only - free
Tier 2: Sites using all other services - nominal fee
Tier 3: Sites that charge cash for services larger fee

Not the full solution to be sure but a germ of an idea.

It may have already been said but this catch all line: "EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server" also affects corp/alliance sites that require API authentication and clearly they are non-commercial.

Overall, I really do welcome the intent of this initiative but really think that a little more thought should have gone into it to save the pain. At what level were the CSM involved in this by the way?




Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:15:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Blane Xero
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.


How dare a business want money.
And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.

They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it.
The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)

but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little.
either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it


The reason CCP has been successful thus far, as in, up until now with Eve, is because they have developed Eve as a game with the main focus being on creating the universe and making it good. Now, their focus is shifting more and more from developing a game to making money. CCP prides itself on not charging for expansions, and now all this bull****? hypocritical much?


Innominate
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:16:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki

Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.



If you consider the number of people who WOULD pay it, you're completely right. If you consider the number of people that would have to pay it to continue what they're doing you're off by a couple orders of magnitude and the dollar amount becomes meaningful. (i.e. If you throw in an unrealistic expectation of the number of people willing to pay it)

Selnix
Gallente
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:16:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ShockedShockedShocked


Just a thought... If there weren't gaping holes in your game, maybe there wouldn't be all of these 3rd party programs to begin with. How about a small list of 3rd party apps which are completely free to use which don't have a viable counterpart in-game that could be adversely affected by this crap...

  • Jump Planners - Have fun figuring out what systems are in range or what a nice route may be using only in-game mechanics


  • EFT - Have fun buying one of everything just so you can find out what fits will fit whilst still not knowing how decent the tank may be or how much dps you will do


  • EVEMON - Please enjoy planning out your skills a day at a time


  • Corp/Alliance/Battleclinic Killboards - To all of the ***gots who have whined about killboards ruining their happy little carebear existance, I guess this one is a good one


I'm sure there are plenty of others which people find invaluable to them to make a broken game playable but I thought I'd just stick with the highlights. If you don't plan to add some functionality to your game, perhaps you shouldn't hinder the progress of those who want to do so.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
How hard is it to understand that you guys can prevent 99% of the PR ****storms just by asking the CSM first?


Your statement implies that you believe CCP cares about customer opinion or genuinely takes the CSM seriously.

With due respect, lolno.

Emilya Tatsuki
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki

but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little.
either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it




By that you mean "they have the lack of business acumen to try and implement something that makes the people who support their game with services they themselves are too incompetent to implement run away screaming" right?




No, actually I don't

Maybe if you step off the bandwagon and actually read what I posted and
think about it, you would see that.[/b]

Valdamerca
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats


Also reading Monetizing Your Apps and Services describes it perfectly. It is YOU who are getting the $ not the community. Honestly you should give the 3rd party developers the 99$.

And your damage control post about "Biz Dev" does not impress.

Levarr Burton
B0rthole
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas

1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.

2) Regarding this clause:
Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.


I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.

4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.



Okay, going to go through this point by point.
1.This change was, in no way, represented as a "first draft" until you said it was in this post. The change was introduced as "starting this summer," which, by the way, means in the next 7 days to 3ish months. Hardly a time-frame, or wording, consistent with a change of this magnitude being a "first draft."

2. Nothing much to say about this, except that requiring a real-money commercial license when the product cannot, under the EULA, be redeemed for real-money is pants-on-head ******ed, as no commercial profit is being made. It forces the developer to begin charging real money just to cover the costs of the license.

3. This statement is inconsistent. You say that "This project is not about CCP making money" but also that "$99 is the lowest that we estimated...could reasonably go." Which is it? Is this a for-profit venture on CCP's part? Or, is this a "lowest possible cost" licensing venture?

4.Yes, it is tricky to allow ventures that generate real-money income and which use your IP, without a formal licensing arrangement. However, as you have stated that the primary goal of this project is NOT to improve CCP's balance sheet, but rather to protect the IP; it should be no issue to provide this licensing at a negligible (to the poor developer) cost. If your motive is to empower the 3rd party developer, while maintaining the sanctity of your IP, this can be accomplished even with a $1/year licensing fee. By imposing the higher, almost punitive, fee, you force developers who would otherwise provide a free, or for-donation, service to monetize, passing more cost on to the end-user (who already pays money to play this game).

Agora Phobic
Gallente
Pinnacle Endeavors
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 - [352]
 

Where are the CSM? The blog doesn't mention that they were told about this.

Zamiq
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
My understanding might be completely wrong but from what im reading you only need the license and only have to pay ccp if you plan on charging people for the 3rd party service.

Ie sites that run on donations or offer their services for free do not need a license and do not have to pay the $99 fee...

At least i think this is what all this means :S (please please please correct me if i am wrong)




You are correct, however this will also apply to ad-supported website that use CCP's API. So while there will still be a number of free to use 3rd party apps, it will be more difficult for the app developer to recoup some of the cost associated with hosting such an app. Providing a support website with bug tracking, suggestions and comments is going to be even more difficult.

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:18:00 - [354]
 

Also if your guild forum uses ads and has an open public section you will be required to pay $100

Thats absurd.

Morphisat
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:18:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas

3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.



I see your nose growing all of a sudden Laughing.

Quote:

Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.



Then why start this to begin with ?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:19:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: Max Torps
At what level were the CSM involved in this by the way?



HURR DURR WE ARE SO AWESOME AND WE HAVE AWESOME IDEAS WE DO NOT NEED LOLPLAYERS TO TELL US OUR HURR DURR IDEAS ARE AWESOME

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:19:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki


This is exactly what it is, a way to kill RMT
Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence

Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license
will do two things:

Arrow1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued

Arrow2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.

Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope
it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers

Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.


Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.

so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year.
yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.

I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION)
but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY

Rolling Eyes
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.


How dare a business want money.
And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.

They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it.
The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)

but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little.
either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it




How about when they kill the license program and no one is allowed to continue their service or support of the products they've made? Yet CCP has information on what those programs did, basically able to make it themselves as everyone HAS to 'register' their product with them? CCP might be 'nice' and buy them out for a pittance but they don't have to. So CCP takes over those services and charges extra, or maybe AURUM payment only.


Nardman
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:19:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.


Originally by: Sorakage

You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.




It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:19:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
How hard is it to understand that you guys can prevent 99% of the PR ****storms just by asking the CSM first?


Your statement implies that you believe CCP cares about customer opinion or genuinely takes the CSM seriously.

With due respect, lolno.


My statement doesn't imply that they take the CSM seriously. Actually, it urges them to start taking it seriously. It's a huge PR tool for them to use.

However, I am starting to agree that CCP doesn't care about its customers' opinion.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:20:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Alpheias
IMO, CCP should be paying anyone that hosts a website or blog that practically endorses EVE because it is basically free advertising that CCP (and EVE) is getting.




Not to mention, CCP should be paying me a fee to store Aurum only items on my hard drive in the not too distant future.


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