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salty Milk
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:04:00 - [331]
 

try not to forget the CSM is perfectly on board with it i do know how you like to pretend that the CSM has YOUR best interests at heart

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:06:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many.

Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.)

It can't do trade-in's.
It can't do BPCs.
It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use.
It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.)
It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item.
But it will get better.

Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on.

So I presented our dilemma to them.
EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe.

And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle.

"Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?"

The CSM had one big question:
-Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in?
(The answer is no.)

They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money.

So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation.

Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out.

If we need to go even slower, we can and will.
I propose as players we show our distaste for your flippancy for the market by maintaining a campaign of suiciding aurum only ships until you deliver the finished code rather than generating isk out of thin air. ( the insurance isk has been created and sold to players by CCP ).

Hopefully this will dissuade people from buying these ships and encourage CCP fix their broken promises.

Zaotome
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:06:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Just DO NOT roll it out until it can at least do trade-ins so that one can trade a standard Scorpion for that Ishukone one.


this.

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:07:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
I propose as players we show our distaste for your flippancy for the market by maintaining a campaign of suiciding aurum only ships until you deliver the finished code rather than generating isk out of thin air. ( the insurance isk has been created and sold to players by CCP ).

Hopefully this will dissuade people from buying these ships and encourage CCP fix their broken promises.

You didnt already think that everyone of a certain mindset has already decided to gank paintjob scorpions on release?

Its going to be a fun day

Zavulon Sukkot
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:08:00 - [335]
 

CCP WateverYourNameIsThisWeek, I think it's pretty clear that these things naturally won't be popular, especially since you're pulling two classically incompatible revenue models together.

That leads me to ask, with MT being introduced into the game, and PLEX already being bought enough by bots and 'temporary' accounts to allow 'older' players to play without putting more money in, when is EVE juts going to move to free-to-play and we'll have to buy 'CCP points' to do everything from region jumps to capital undocks to starting building jobs? After all, your communication is crap concerning the evidence systemic problems bought to your table every day. When are you going to commit to fixing the problems, or finishing milking the game for what you can?

The 'noble exchange', to me at least, is pretty clear evidence of what CCP cares about.

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:12:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 14/06/2011 11:19:41
Originally by: DeBingJos
You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game.

What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX.

Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships.

Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all.

You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch!



Exactly. Plex may not "inject" new isk into the game but it is put in the game in advance. Yes some one will have to grind for it sooner or later but you still devide eve into two groups.Thos who buy and sell plex..and those who grind for it to pay their game time. The rich and the poor. Not only that but all the isk in the game (in advance) is not much different as isk being injected. This effect will grow with the demand being higher to buy all the up comming new stuff..using plex.

It is just like cheating to me and while this scorpion thing might hurt the people making them..plex hurts every profession by giving you another way to get hold of isk..injected,in advance or how ever you look at it. To me it remains a legal way to cheat the game. Plex goes against everything eve stands for..hard work and tears when something is lost.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:14:00 - [337]
 

Why not just have "paintjob" (or "decal") slots and just sell the paintjobs/decals in the store ?
Makes far more sense to me.

Also, it side-steps the ugly issue of possibly making minerals available from NPC sales in some form.
And also side-steps the need to have the "Noble Exchange" accept any item trade-ins.

Last but not least, whatever the chosen volume for the "paintjob/decal" item will be, it will most likely be far, far smaller than the full ship - and with them being easier to move, it makes them more attractive to purchase.
Hell, I can see people buying the full damn set of paintjobs for whatever ship they have, just for the heck of it, since they can probably easily move ALL of them in the cargo of the ship itself to the new base of operations. Now imagine how that would be like if you had to move 20 ships instead of 1 ship with 19-20 paintjob items in its cargo.

Pol Macsliebh
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:15:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/06/2011 22:14:27
There's nothing that I like about this feature. However, I'll suffer it so long as these ships are 100% identical in performance to the Tech 1 Scorpion.

If those Aurum ships are ANY better than their Tech 1 counterparts, the whole game can go **** itself for putting money above the sandbox.

EDIT:

Wait just a damn minute, there is NO EXCUSE not to make it consume a regular Tech 1 Scorpion in exchange for these ships!

I'm just going to quote this once again.

No BPC exchange method, fine, but there's no reason not to consume a normal Scorpion in the process!


Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:17:00 - [339]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 14/06/2011 12:26:17
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: DeBingJos
You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game.

What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX.

Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships.

Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all.

You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch!


Exactly. Plex may not "inject" new isk into the game but it is put in the game in advance.

What does it matter if you can buy your success with RL money from other players, CCP, the gouvernement, your mother, God or whatever?

Fact is you still buy it with RL money ("pay2win") so you already agree upon it that it should be possible, as long as you get your characters and isk from other players. And a ship is very minor compared to a 60 mil SP character that can actually fly it.

Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:17:00 - [340]
 

I'll have to add my discontempt about magic scorpions popping out of shattered pilot licenses.

I have no trouble accepting a re-painted ship for RL monies, but when the ship itself gets spawned out of nowhere I do have a problem. Please think it over again.

Pierced Brosmen
Priory Of The Lemon
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:20:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: Pierced Brosmen on 14/06/2011 12:21:39
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2011 11:42:40
Originally by: Vastek Non
The LP store doesn't allow RMT for short term profit. It also requires in game effort to obtain those LP, thus its not what CCP had in mind.
He's talking about the code, not the store itself.

The code for the LP store lets it accept a reasonably complex combination of two currencies (LP and ISK) and a myriad of different items (tags, ammo, ships, modules) as input, and allows for an even larger — or at least more complex — myriad of items (BPCs, ammo, ships, modules, books, implants) as output. He's asking why that code couldn't be reused to do all the things the AUR store can't, and "simply" replace the LP costs with AUR costs.

If I were to guess (uncharitably), it's because the AUR store is properly Carbonified and fancy, with nice preview windows and advert banners, whereas the LP store is… well… not.

Also I'd like to point out that the LP-store sucks. You have to manualy set up filtering on it unless you want to scroll through everything (wich mostly contain a lot of implants where you'd need a reference guide to figure out wich does what).

Yes, I think the reason for them not using the code for the LP-store is to make the new store in carbon (and to make it better). It's current functionality and complexity of payment/trade-ins and the fact there is no filtering in it at it's current iteration, I'm sure that will be fixed. I'd like to be able to browse the market window based on market groups and clothing to be separated in groups of mens cloting, womens cloting and unisex, and further into clothing groups.

And, when the Aurum store is in a more finished form (unless it's functionality still sucks), I'd like to see them use that code to create a new LP-store Smile

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:22:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 14/06/2011 12:24:48
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: DeBingJos
You are turning EVE into a pay2win type of game.

What? That's already beeing the case since PLEX.

Still have to see any proposal or idea that's more "pay to win" than RL Cash --> PLEX --> ISK --> 80 million SP character and hangars full of T2 ships.

Whatever has been proposed thus far is peanuts compared to this option that strangly no-one seems to mind at all.

You're really a weird and inconsistent bunch!


Exactly. Plex may not "inject" new isk into the game but it is put in the game in advance.

What does it matter if you can buy your success with RL money from other players, CCP, the gouvernement, your mother, God or whatever?

Fact is you still buy it with RL money ("pay2win") so you already agree upon it that it should be possible. And a ship is very minor compared to a 60 mil SP character that can actually fly it.



I think you misunderstood me..I agree with you 100% and hate the intro of plex. Why grind missions or mine anymore? Let those who can't afford to buy/sell plex for isk do so.Rolling Eyes Or why skill for 5 years when you can work a few hours irl and buy a char?

I'm on your side all the way.

Edit: And I did complain about plex..as I'm complaining now because once it's in...it's in the game.

moneykeeper
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:23:00 - [343]
 

It's easy to identify CCP employee alts are in this thread. No real Eve players would argue in favor of MT. It is like buying a drink, then being charged an extra 50 cents for an ice cube. What sort of a tool would want that?

With MT comes a shift in the development of Eve. Eve's involving content and player based economy will be sidelined. Colored pants and sparkly ships is the new developmental direction.

But, like it or not, this garbage is going to be forced into Eve. Someone high up in the company has decreed it. There is no combination of words that can be used to change this.

Turix
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:23:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
If we need to go even slower, we can and will.


How about you stop, I don't want to count have many times the COMMUNITY and not just the CSM has told you/asked you/pleaded/begged you to NOT touch micro-transactions; yet here we are.

Very sad day indeed.

Deyionu
The Maverick Navy
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:24:00 - [345]
 

Edited by: Deyionu on 14/06/2011 12:24:06
So here is an idea.. if you are so sure the first people to buy these are collectors gimp the hell out of the ship (lower stats, maybe 1 less missile bay). Then when you get the ship trade-in done and in-game force everyone to do a trade-in.

So basically release a civilian model then later release the active duty one. There is no point of introducing a bought ship to the game that doesn't cost any in-game items. Also make is so the civilian one can't be reprocessed.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:28:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Skippermonkey
Originally by: Dodgy Past
I propose as players we show our distaste for your flippancy for the market by maintaining a campaign of suiciding aurum only ships until you deliver the finished code rather than generating isk out of thin air. ( the insurance isk has been created and sold to players by CCP ).

Hopefully this will dissuade people from buying these ships and encourage CCP fix their broken promises.

You didnt already think that everyone of a certain mindset has already decided to gank paintjob scorpions on release?

Its going to be a fun day
There was always going to be the for the tears crowd, but now a lot of people will be joining them until CCP stop selling isk for RL money.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:28:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: HeIIfire11
I think you misunderstood me..I agree with you 100% and hate the intro of plex. Why grind missions or mine anymore? Let those who can't afford to buy/sell plex for isk do so.Rolling Eyes Or why skill for 5 years when you can work a few hours irl and buy a char?

I'm on your side all the way.

Edit: And I did complain about plex..as I'm complaining now because once it's in...it's in the game.

Darn I should learn to read a bit better (it was late yesterday and I'm at work atm .. but still ;) .. sorry for that!

Phoenus
Caldari
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:30:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
For those who missed it before, let's go back over this in better detail. The detail is interesting for many.

Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange) and is making it in stages. It's fairly simple and straightforward at present but will be getting more sophisticated over time. Right now it can only sell one kind of thing at a time (no bundles) and can only accept one payment at a time (Aurum.)

It can't do trade-in's.
It can't do BPCs.
It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use.
It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.)
It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item.
But it will get better.

Other folks are making cool ship art. Other folks are making clothing, etc. One of the cool ships was the Ishukone Watch Scorpion battleship which we brought to the CSM. They got to see a little better view of it than just a screen shot posted in a video broadcast and they thought it looked pretty cool. One of them will likely chime in about it or you'll see it in their meeting minutes which I know they are working on.

So I presented our dilemma to them.
EVE players need to be in control of the EVE economy as much as possible. That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe.

And if we sell a battleship in a store, that transgresses this important principle.

"Shall I hold this until the store properly supports BPCs or a Scorpion trade-in? Or shall I start selling it now for 3-4 months and then change how we sell it later?"

The CSM had one big question:
-Is there any difference between the Ishukone Watch Scorpions sold whole and the ones sold in trade in?
(The answer is no.)

They said yes, you want players in control. You want players buying Scorpions from industrialist players. Absolutely. But in this case this is not likely to hurt the EVE economy because initially people will only buy these ships as a collectible and for fun. This will not affect their purchase of Scorpions for actual fleet warfare. They will still buy as many Scorps - this would just be on extra out of their bling money.

So they recommended we go ahead and begin our learning curve and get the fun ship into circulation.

Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes. We'll just point out that the Ishukone Watch only made a limited number of ships to sell to capsuleers and that supply has now run out.

If we need to go even slower, we can and will.


'It won't affect the economy because people are buying them for fun'.

Seriously? I mean, how goddamn dumb can you be?

You want to go down the whole microtransactions route, sure - keep it in Incarna. Oh wait, you won't - why? Because such a small minority of the playerbase actually cares about Incarna that you wouldn't make any money out of it.

Enuen Ravenseye
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:30:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange)


Wait, wait, wait! I assume you're joking about the name "Noble Exchange" for the cash shop. Tell me you're just being sarcastic.

If not, well ... that right there would be one of the funniest ****ing things I've heard in a while.

"We're greedy! We only care about money! In someone's twisted world that makes us "noble"!

Bwahahahaha

P.S. As you ruin the builder's career path, are you considering giving a free SP re-spec for industrialists? Seems fair.

Swren1
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:30:00 - [350]
 

Eve was fun for 5 years, time to find something else I guess...

Khaed Duhn
Minmatar
The Kairos Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:32:00 - [351]
 

I'd just like to say that pushing through anything like this 'magic ships for money' idea, will leave the kind of salty after taste in my mouth that I last experienced when my Uncle Jimmy came round my house and showed me a 'superspecialsecret' magic trick that he didn't want Papa to know about.

Personally I don't think this is part of an evil plan for CCP to steal my babies or other similar over reaction, I simply know that this type of (even temporary) inclusion in the game will make me a very sad panda.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:34:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Enuen Ravenseye
Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange)

Wait, wait, wait! I assume you're joking about the name "Noble Exchange" for the cash shop. Tell me you're just being sarcastic.



Rather Orwellian of them isn't it? Not a surprise considering it was likely named by the Ministry of Truth, excuse me, I mean the Marketing Department.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:36:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
If we need to go even slower, we can and will.


why the rush then?

is it really because you are still hardpressed on what some paperpushers or some admin that understands nothing about this game still thinks that new content sells more than extra polish?

if that's so, I can't wait to see the CCP's grave marker where it will say "what do you mean, half-baked content isn't better than improve what we have?"


no really we don't mine new content. we do like new content.


but I can see the first incarnation of the AUR shop becoming just like pretty much everything else in EVE: half-developed, half-deployed, half-assed.

Cognito Ergosum
Amarr
Vulkan Schiffbau und Maschinenfabrik AG
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:37:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:05:15
Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/06/2011 09:03:36
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: MotherMoon
Next year people should vote in people me and Tippa.
I'm going to have to go on record here to say that you are completely insane. Laughing


Tippa for CSM!

come onnn, you me, Akita T, cat o ninetails! Tank CEO, jenny spitfire

most epic CSM ever!


If this is the way the EVE world is going to end I think I'd like this group to be the band on the Titanic.



Anne Arqui
Minmatar
Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:38:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Enuen Ravenseye
P.S. As you ruin the builder's career path, are you considering giving a free SP re-spec for industrialists? Seems fair.

Yes, getting my Hulk skills reimbursed! I soooo hate mining! Very Happy

And a bloodline change as we're at it ...............

Di Mulle
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:38:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
The detail is interesting for many.

Indeed.

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
So I presented our dilemma to them.


The very fact that you consider this as dilemma is a clearest indication where your priorities now lie.


Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
It can't do trade-in's.
It can't do BPCs.
It can't sell anything that requires a user interface to use.
It can't highlight an item on sale (they will look like the non sale items.)
It can't sort/filter and only show you one kind of item.
But it will get better.


I.e., it can't do nothing, but don't worry, almighty SoonTM will take care. We, on the other hand, do not care much - but are extremely eager to squeeze some cash.

Actions speak better than words. You act pretty clearly now, and thats why this:

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
That's not just a marketing claim, that's what we really believe.


is empty words. They are not backed by action, opposite, they contradict with action.

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
Now, behind the scenes, we will be monitoring to make sure that Scorpion sales don't crash and that the economy does not suffer. If it does, we can turn off the availability of the ship in minutes.


From MT point view, quite nice idea, don't you think. Making them exclusive, so the moment you release the next paid version, everybody rush to open their wallets as wide as never seen before. Or so you can hope. Again, bean counters would like your way of thinking.


Murev Vorchilde
Caldari
End Game.
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:40:00 - [357]
 

Edited by: Murev Vorchilde on 14/06/2011 12:42:16
Originally by: Enuen Ravenseye
Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
Team Stonehenge is making the store (Noble Exchange)


Wait, wait, wait! I assume you're joking about the name "Noble Exchange" for the cash shop. Tell me you're just being sarcastic.

If not, well ... that right there would be one of the funniest ****ing things I've heard in a while.

"We're greedy! We only care about money! In someone's twisted world that makes us "noble"!

Bwahahahaha

P.S. As you ruin the builder's career path, are you considering giving a free SP re-spec for industrialists? Seems fair.


its noble as in noble metal(gold store)

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:42:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Khaed Duhn
I'd just like to say that pushing through anything like this 'magic ships for money' idea, will leave the kind of salty after taste in my mouth that I last experienced when my Uncle Jimmy came round my house and showed me a 'superspecialsecret' magic trick that he didn't want Papa to know about.


ROFLLaughing

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: HeIIfire11
I think you misunderstood me..I agree with you 100% and hate the intro of plex. Why grind missions or mine anymore? Let those who can't afford to buy/sell plex for isk do so.Rolling Eyes Or why skill for 5 years when you can work a few hours irl and buy a char?

I'm on your side all the way.

Edit: And I did complain about plex..as I'm complaining now because once it's in...it's in the game.

Darn I should learn to read a bit better (it was late yesterday and I'm at work atm .. but still ;) .. sorry for that!



No worries Wink I figured you misunderstood me.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:44:00 - [359]
 

CCP have categorically stated time and time again that microtransactions will only be used for cosmetic items.

CCP - do you want to prove everyone who calls you liars right?

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:47:00 - [360]
 

I thought GTC was a good idea. Wasn't sure about the plex idea though, but still it's done. Now we have MT through the front door.

I rarely play eve, the subscription ends at the end of the month and as I'm not playing anyway, just training the skills to keep the character 'current'. Not that it matters as 80M+ sp doesn't mean anything if you don't undock for a few weeks on end.

Eve Online was a great game. The back story the promise of adventure and of course the people. The people are still around for now, but the adventure is more grind like, the pve is outrageously dull and ship spinning is tiresome. It's been a graphical chat room for a very long time now and this introduction is just another sad route down the already highly signposted path of f2p, or at least pay to win.


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